The Avengers Whedonisms in TA

[Rowsdower!]

Nothing in this movie reminded me of Firefly or Buffy.



Hence the reason I liked it.

 

[DACrowe]

^Yes, BW was so Buffy 2.0

There was a line early in the movie that screamed Firefly to me. Fury saying something about "Has the world ended yet? Then we'll act as though it intends to spin on."

The world intending to do something, mixed with the archaic 'on' just sounded right out of Firefly, and no where else, to me.

And yeah, Marvel might have told him to kill Coulson, but Whedon did it in the most Whedonesque way possible.

Oh another one of those was when Fury asked Thor, "Then, why do I feel like Loki's the only one who wants to be on this boat?"

That's very Firefly/Serenity for Fury to refer to the hellicarrier/moving aircraft as a boat.

I don't really see though how BW is "Buffy 2.0" though other than they're both women who kick ass. That's like saying River Tam is exactly like Buffy when their personalities and characters are worlds apart. BW is a strong woman character, but it's not like Whedon has a patent on that archetype. I would hope not.

 

[DACrowe]

Nothing in this movie reminded me of Firefly or Buffy.



Hence the reason I liked it.

See my post on page 1 and you'll realize it's a lot like his earlier stuff, at least Serenity in some ways. The only big difference (besides the superhero garb) is the story is less thematically heavy/dark and that there is only one major female role in the whole film.

Also, a difference is some fanboys still complain that there is a woman in the boy's club in the movie.

 

[flickchick85]

There was A LOT in this that reminded me of Buffy/Angel. Only a couple lines reminded me of Firefly, though (that Budapest line was one, and Fury's dialogue with Hill in the beginning was another).

Some of Thor's dialogue reminded me of Illyria from Angel (another God on Earth). That Bildshnipe(sp?) bit could just as easily have been an exchange between Illyria and Wesley. It seems Joss has a thing about describing imaginary funny-looking creatures as having huge antlers. As I recall, that's how Spike described the chaos demon that Druisilla left him for, lol.

 

[Rowsdower!]

See my post on page 1 and you'll realize it's a lot like his earlier stuff, at least Serenity in some ways. The only big difference (besides the superhero garb) is the story is less thematically heavy/dark and that there is only one major female role in the whole film.

Also, a difference is some fanboys still complain that there is a woman in the boy's club in the movie.

LOL, I was only being half-serious with that comment. Yeah, there are some similarities for sure, but his other stuff never clicked with me the way that this did. Maybe that's just because I've loved most of these characters for years, but regardless... Avengers was awesome.

 

[Joeyjojo72]

Fury, to Hill: “Until such time as the world ends, we will act as though it intends to spin on”

Classic Whedonspeak

 

[DACrowe]

Also, that post-fight scene in the infirmary, where BW tells Hawkeye about how she broke him out of his spell, sounds like something Buffy would say.

A moment there of understated sentimentality felt very Whedon. It goes something like:

Hawkeye: You're acting different, Nat. Since when have you been a soldier? What did Loki do to you?
Black Widow:....I've been compromised.

It hints that there is some emotional (possibly romantic, but not necessarily) bond she has with him, but it won't go further than that. No, teasing, no shipper dialogue and nothing on the nose. Just the character underplaying it perfectly and leaving it there for the audience to see.

 

[bonzob2000]

LOL, I was only being half-serious with that comment. Yeah, there are some similarities for sure, but his other stuff never clicked with me the way that this did. Maybe that's just because I've loved most of these characters for years, but regardless... Avengers was awesome.

Yeah, I think you are both right. As a Joss obsessive, Avengers felt like Joss with almost every frame, and especially every line of dialogue. But I think there was something about it that made it more accessible to people who've never liked his style before.

My girlfriend can't stand Buffy, Angel, or Firefly, for instance, and tends to hate Whedon's stylized dialogue (she was more positive, but still very mixed, on Serenity, Dollhouse, Dr. Horrible, and Cabin).

And yet, she LOVED the Avengers. Like, probably more than I did even. She really wants to go see it again.

It's weird though, because she keeps saying stuff like "I love how strong Black Widow was! I love how you thought Loki was going to break her down but she was just tricking him! That was so cool!" And I want to be like "Joss does that stuff ALL THE TIME. Why do you like this but not Buffy?"

 

[Joeyjojo72]

To those who didnt watch Buffy/Angel/Firefly: The dialogue in the movie is completely consistent with Joss Whedon's writing style. Anyone who has watch even half a season of any of those shows can recognize his dialogue.

The fact is, Buffy the Vampire Slayer was a defacto Marvel superhero show (her origin story is right out of a comic book for example). With periodic teamups with OTHER superheroes (other slayers, scientists, friendly vamps/demons, super soldiers) to boot. Between Buffy and Angel, Joss had a decade to work out the kinks. Especially the use of violence/tragedy/ and humor. Oh, and of course the dialogue.

 

[The Question]

I don't think the Buffy/BW comparisons are fare. Black Widow IS a badass, it's in her character. Nothing Joss brought to the table.

 

[Joeyjojo72]

I don't think the Buffy/BW comparisons are fare. Black Widow IS a badass, it's in her character. Nothing Joss brought to the table.

He brought every word that came out of ScarJo's mouth to the table. He brought fight scenes that are reminiscent of Buffy/Angel to the table. A lot of other people brougth their **** to the table too, but this is the JOSS WHEDON version of the character. At least as written/filmed.

BW's backstory, at least the broad strokes, are pretty cliched. Typical cold war boilerplate, with some super-science thrown in. Marvel has updated/retconned her character in the last 15 years or so, but none of that is really dealt with in the movie.

 

[The Question]

He brought every word that came out of ScarJo's mouth to the table. He brought fight scenes that are reminiscent of Buffy/Angel to the table. A lot of other people brougth their **** to the table too, but this is the JOSS WHEDON version of the character. At least as written/filmed.

BW's backstory, at least the broad strokes, are pretty cliched. Typical cold war boilerplate, with some super-science thrown in. Marvel has updated/retconned her character in the last 15 years or so, but none of that is really dealt with in the movie.

The fact that she used to be a spy who murdered and manipulated a lot of people before going straight is intact.

 

[bonoferox]

Joss' attractive girl foot fetish continued by making Natasha barefoot in her interrogation fight scene and I'm pretty sure Pepper was barefoot in her scenes.

Also *spoiler*

The scene where the Avengers are arguing and Bruce backs up only to be revealed to be holding the spear was very much what happened to River in "Objects in Space" where she picks up a stick and is then told to put down the gun. I thought it was quite brilliant.

 

[Joeyjojo72]

The fact that she used to be a spy who murdered and manipulated a lot of people before going straight is intact.

the definition of "broad strokes", and its the same story as every other cold war spy story. Read like ANY John LeCarre book for clarity on this point.

 

[Joeyjojo72]

Joss' attractive girl foot fetish continued by making Natasha barefoot in her interrogation fight scene and I'm pretty sure Pepper was barefoot in her scenes.

Also *spoiler*

The scene where the Avengers are arguing and Bruce backs up only to be revealed to be holding the spear was very much what happened to River in "Objects in Space" where she picks up a stick and is then told to put down the gun. I thought it was quite brilliant.

I think Hitchcock did this a lot. Whats that saying about great minds?

 

[redhawk23]

I wonder though how much influence RDJ had on some of Stark's lines. Obviously the scenes were a lot more scripted than the Iron Man films, but we all know how RDJ likes to come up with stuff and try it out.

 

[Suzanne78]

A very, very small line of dialogue from Tony Stark, but it's so very, very Whedon...

When they're confronting Fury in the lab, and Tony shows the weapon plans he hacked into: "Excuse me, what were you lying?"

I have to agree with the Whedonizing of BW. Sure, she's completely ass kicking in the comics, but Whedon gave her touches of humor admist the darker moments with Loki and her action scenes reminded me of Buffy's battles with Faith in season 3 and 4. Seriously, those were some fabulously choreographed moments, especially knowing the history between the two slayers.

Agreed with the Thor/Illyria parallels.

 

[bonzob2000]

A very, very small line of dialogue from Tony Stark, but it's so very, very Whedon...

When they're confronting Fury in the lab, and Tony shows the weapon plans he hacked into: "Excuse me, what were you lying?"

I have to agree with the Whedonizing of BW. Sure, she's completely ass kicking in the comics, but Whedon gave her touches of humor admist the darker moments with Loki and her action scenes reminded me of Buffy's battles with Faith in season 3 and 4. Seriously, those were some fabulously choreographed moments, especially knowing the history between the two slayers.

Agreed with the Thor/Illyria parallels.

Yeah, I agree with Black Widow. He didn't create the character, or the idea of "strong female characters," but the way he wrote that character was very much reminiscent of his past work. Plus, I doubt many other writers would have given her as much attention and screentime (if I'm remembering correctly, she has more screentime than Banner/Hulk, Hawkeye, and Thor).

And I didn't even catch that "what were you lying?" but it's very Whedon. I love his little linguistic twists like that. Reminds me of a line from Astonishing X-Men, where someone says the weapons they've found are "state of the art of war."

 

[Tony Stark]

I wonder though how much influence RDJ had on some of Stark's lines. Obviously the scenes were a lot more scripted than the Iron Man films, but we all know how RDJ likes to come up with stuff and try it out.

Yeah I very much thought RDJ was improvising on some of that. The "big bag of weed" thing had to have been RDJ.

 

[flickchick85]

A very, very small line of dialogue from Tony Stark, but it's so very, very Whedon...

When they're confronting Fury in the lab, and Tony shows the weapon plans he hacked into: "Excuse me, what were you lying?"

Oh yeah, I forgot about that, but I remember when I first saw it I thought the same thing. An extremely Whedon-y line.

 

[Saitou Hajime]

Cap vs Loki is like your standard Whedon fight where the hero fights someone stronger and gets thrown around a lot

The powerwalk (Cap, Black Widow, and Hawkeye)

Foot fetish (Black Widow)

Monster stalking the girl (Black Widow and Hawkeye)

Big Damn Heroes moments

Mood Whiplash

 

[Spider-X]

Nothing in this movie reminded me of Firefly or Buffy.



Hence the reason I liked it.

The scene where Hulk thrashes the living [golden apples] out of Loki reminds me of the scene in Firefly where Malcolm Reynolds has a guy tied up and tells him to deliver something back to his boss...the guy threatens Reynolds, so Mal just straight up kicks the guy into a jet engine. From the 2nd episode "Shindig." Freaking hilarious and amazing.

 

[Avenger]

The scene where Hulk thrashes the living [golden apples] out of Loki reminds me of the scene in Firefly where Malcolm Reynolds has a guy tied up and tells him to deliver something back to his boss...the guy threatens Reynolds, so Mal just straight up kicks the guy into a jet engine. From the 2nd episode "Shindig." Freaking hilarious and amazing.

It was actually from "The Train Job," the hastily-written replacement episode for the two-hour pilot. But I agree, that was a great moment, and probably the one that sold most of us on the series. t:

 

[bonzob2000]

It was actually from "The Train Job," the hastily-written replacement episode for the two-hour pilot. But I agree, that was a great moment, and probably the one that sold most of us on the series. t:

Yep, it also reminded me of the Buffy season 5 finale where they set up the character of Doc (played by Cabaret's Joel Grey!) as this scary superstrong badass... he's standing in front of Buffy on a tower, the only thing between her and her sister who is about to be killed. He approaches and gives the evil villain line "well... this should be interesting" preparing to finally fight Buffy -- and she grabs him and throws him off the tower in about two seconds flat. Brilliant moment.

 

[Avenger]

Yep, it also reminded me of the Buffy season 5 finale where they set up the character of Doc (played by Cabaret's Joel Grey!) as this scary superstrong badass... he's standing in front of Buffy on a tower, the only thing between her and her sister who is about to be killed. He approaches and gives the evil villain line "well... this should be interesting" preparing to finally fight Buffy -- and she grabs him and throws him off the tower in about two seconds flat. Brilliant moment.

Ha! Yeah, or the moment from Season Two where they've been setting up this evil child vampire as some sort of messiah for the apocalypse or something, and then Spike shows up, throws the kid in a cage, and lifts the cage up into the sunlight, turning the kid to dust.