The Avengers Whedonisms in TA

[Angry Sentinel]

Whedon ought to write a She-Hulk movie then. Not only will he always be able to have her barefoot (and it will be perfectly natural for her) but he would actually be able to give her the witty dialogue she needs. Plus she is a strong female, so it would be right up his street. Given how well he wrote Hulk, imagine what he could do with She-Hulk!

Actually... I have
The stories would be fantastic!! they would have real continuity. They would be grounded in the comics. She hulk would be funny, but not corny, more true to the character. She would have "heart" and practically come to life, which is why EVERYONE loves Joss writing. And I haven't even mentioned how much fun he would have with the stuff you were just talking about.

Also, I guarantee he would make another stereotypically weak character trait, her strongest one... It IS his thing!

 

[DACrowe]

So, because of The Avengers, I finally checked out Dollhouse. I avoided the show when it was on because the marketing made it look like a step down for Whedon, just a generic weekly procedural about Eliza Dushku kicking ass. Plus, the whole human trafficking thing with brainwashed "dolls" made me feel dirty. But after loving TA and CAITW, I decided to finally give this Whedon show a chance.

Holy ****!

I've been watching this show very slowly for three or four weeks. The first five episodes were what I thought the ads made it look like and I was kind of bored with the show. But by episode 6 of S1? The show just kicked it into overdrive. I watched Episode 8 of S1 all the way to the series finale (19 episodes) in a week. The show literally got better and better with every episode. It freaking blew my mind the way it used Alan Tudyk and Amy Acker. The moral implications of all the characters and the questions about identity and self-image/creation got wonderfully tricky and messed up. I have to give extra praise for Topher (Fran Kranz) being played as an almost childlike Dr. Frankenstein who only starts realizing the horror of his genius until it's way too late. Olivia Williams also as the "cold *****" Adelle was amazing.

The show did have its problems. I thought some of the acting, strange for a Whedon production, was a bit spotty (guy who played Paul, I'm looking at you). Also, there were quite a few plot holes. Especially in the second season where they had to rush Adelle's character arc as they knew that it'd be the last season and they crammed about 2-3 years worth of story into that final season. There is also that twist in those final episodes of who the big bad mastermind is. The twist felt more like a gimmick to me, because they needed a mastermind whom the audience would have an immediate reaction to. But it doesn't really hold up that well with S2 and not at all with S1. Also, that character's motivations for getting everyone to Tucson felt very forced.

Still, an amazing series with a breathtaking ending. Besides that complaint I had above, there were more twists that did work and had me stunned like [blackout]Dr. Saunders putting a bullet in Summer Glau's brain! My jaw hit the floor and I nearly fell out of my chair![/blackout] Also, the real final episode wrapped up everything so nicely. It brought real closure to Echo/Caroline's arc, Topher's self-realization and everything else.

This was an outstanding show that was about far more than ass-kicking girls and seedy sexual fantasy. It imagines a technology that is scary and world-shattering and the countless applications for it. It also explores what it means to be an individual and have an identity. Choice and free will, etc. It was a great show and I wish I watched when it was on the air, because it's one of the best shows I'd seen. And unlike Firefly, I'm completely fine with its ending. There was closure. I think another season or two could have made Adelle and Boyd's arcs breathe as well as given us more great use of Alpha. However, as a whole it worked. Just a fantastic show.

 

[Angry Sentinel]

no-one ever talks about Dollhouse.. I thought it was because no-one ever watched it. Guess i was right, lol. Yeah, that show really had purpose. It was WAY better than I thought it would be. I agree with you about some of the issues Season 2 faced, but again, they knew they were cancelled so Whedon (once again) had to turn the 5 year plan into 5 episodes and that just aint right (looking at you FOX).

 

[Raiden]

I might check out Dollhouse one of these days, just of the glowing reviews you guys gave it, and also because I'm a fan of Eliza Dushku (I love her ever since she played Faith in Buffy). Hopefully after the success of TA, Whedon will be given more creative freedom and leeway in the shows that he develops for TV.

 

[DACrowe]

no-one ever talks about Dollhouse.. I thought it was because no-one ever watched it. Guess i was right, lol. Yeah, that show really had purpose. It was WAY better than I thought it would be. I agree with you about some of the issues Season 2 faced, but again, they knew they were cancelled so Whedon (once again) had to turn the 5 year plan into 5 episodes and that just aint right (looking at you FOX).

Yeah. I think the premise was honestly the most challenging one Whedon has taken on to date--a story about protagonists who (mostly) don't remember who they are from week-to-week and are basically pawns in a sex trafficking operation. And the protagonists who are not victims of this are either pimps, madams or boy-geinus Frankensteins who make it possible. It's that kindo f shady premise (and the cheesy promos that made it look like "see Eliza Dushku kick ass between shower scenes!") that kept me away. But it's interest is much larger in the question of identity and self-image, the question of free-will and also the idea of a technology being able to manipulate that and the weaponized escalation that could create. I actually enjoyed it more than Buffy, despite its flaws.

I might check out Dollhouse one of these days, just of the glowing reviews you guys gave it, and also because I'm a fan of Eliza Dushku (I love her ever since she played Faith in Buffy). Hopefully after the success of TA, Whedon will be given more creative freedom and leeway in the shows that he develops for TV.

I recommend it. But the first five episodes are slow and kitschy. Just stick with it. By episode 8 you should be hooked and if you don't love the show by the end of the first season...well don't watch the second season.

But seriously, I don't think that will be a problem with this show.

 

[Dark Raven]

I was wondering where they got this idea myself but then I remembered River is always barefoot and on Dollhouse the girls are barefoot alot too and in the Angel season 5 premiere where they take over Wolfram and Hart was written and directed by Whedon and featured 2 cheesecake shots of Fred's bare feet.

http://buffyworld.com/angel/screencaps/A089/index.php?id=631

http://buffyworld.com/angel/screencaps/A089/index.php?id=653

For the record, foot fetishers creep me out so I'm hoping this is just a coincidence cause I've never noticed or seen anyone point this out about Whedon before. If anything, his love for waifish powerful girls is alot more talked about.

Eh, I honestly don't think those are "cheesecake shots of Fred's bare feet" IMO. Yes, they feature her in bare feet, but I think that's coincidental, because I think that it's more a cheesecake shot of Fred in general than of a specific bodypart. The fact that she is in bare feet is more for the aesthetic look that it gives her long legs. Imagine sticking a pair of socks on the end of that. It would break up that aesthetic, and as Whedon himself has said in one of those posts quoted above, it does give a more natural feel.


And yes, the girls in Dollhouse were often in barefeet at the end when they went to sleep but again, isn't that natural? It just would look odd for them to go to sleep in their pods in socks when it's meant to show them returning to a natural, innocent state. And yes, River Tam was always in barefeet in Firefly, but again I think that's meant to hint at her character (she was an innocent character who might've been naked in that pod at the start in the pilot - I can't remember if she was though).


I honestly don't think it's a Whedonism in the same way as Tarantino's gratuitous closeup shots of women's bare feet are Tarantino-isms (or is that Tarantisms?). It just seems to serve more of a purpose than for nothing more than pure titilation.

 

[flickchick85]

I might check out Dollhouse one of these days, just of the glowing reviews you guys gave it, and also because I'm a fan of Eliza Dushku (I love her ever since she played Faith in Buffy). Hopefully after the success of TA, Whedon will be given more creative freedom and leeway in the shows that he develops for TV.

Despite it being my least-favorite Whedon show, I still completely love Dollhouse, and it's DEFINITELY worth checking out. As I said in the Dollhouse thread, I agree with DA's review, flaws and all (though it doesn't top Buffy for me like it does for him).

The show didn't really get going 'til episode 6, which, as all the Whedonites knew before the show even started airing, was the moment when Fox stepped back and let them do their thing. I will say though, if you're a Dushku fan, you may be a bit disappointed. She was MUCH better in Buffy. In Dollhouse, she's kinda the weak link, but that's ok because the rest of the ensemble (minus Tamoh Penikett/Paul) is so damn awesome. There was some real chameleon-like acting going on in that show, particularly from Enver Gjokaj, who may have been the best actor Whedon's ever had in one of his shows, so it was nice to see him get a nice little cameo in Avengers.

 

[jaymes_e06]

So, because of The Avengers, I finally checked out Dollhouse. I avoided the show when it was on because the marketing made it look like a step down for Whedon, just a generic weekly procedural about Eliza Dushku kicking ass. Plus, the whole human trafficking thing with brainwashed "dolls" made me feel dirty. But after loving TA and CAITW, I decided to finally give this Whedon show a chance.

Holy ****!

I've been watching this show very slowly for three or four weeks. The first five episodes were what I thought the ads made it look like and I was kind of bored with the show. But by episode 6 of S1? The show just kicked it into overdrive. I watched Episode 8 of S1 all the way to the series finale (19 episodes) in a week. The show literally got better and better with every episode. It freaking blew my mind the way it used Alan Tudyk and Amy Acker. The moral implications of all the characters and the questions about identity and self-image/creation got wonderfully tricky and messed up. I have to give extra praise for Topher (Fran Kranz) being played as an almost childlike Dr. Frankenstein who only starts realizing the horror of his genius until it's way too late. Olivia Williams also as the "cold *****" Adelle was amazing.

The show did have its problems. I thought some of the acting, strange for a Whedon production, was a bit spotty (guy who played Paul, I'm looking at you). Also, there were quite a few plot holes. Especially in the second season where they had to rush Adelle's character arc as they knew that it'd be the last season and they crammed about 2-3 years worth of story into that final season. There is also that twist in those final episodes of who the big bad mastermind is. The twist felt more like a gimmick to me, because they needed a mastermind whom the audience would have an immediate reaction to. But it doesn't really hold up that well with S2 and not at all with S1. Also, that character's motivations for getting everyone to Tucson felt very forced.

Still, an amazing series with a breathtaking ending. Besides that complaint I had above, there were more twists that did work and had me stunned like [blackout]Dr. Saunders putting a bullet in Summer Glau's brain! My jaw hit the floor and I nearly fell out of my chair![/blackout] Also, the real final episode wrapped up everything so nicely. It brought real closure to Echo/Caroline's arc, Topher's self-realization and everything else.

This was an outstanding show that was about far more than ass-kicking girls and seedy sexual fantasy. It imagines a technology that is scary and world-shattering and the countless applications for it. It also explores what it means to be an individual and have an identity. Choice and free will, etc. It was a great show and I wish I watched when it was on the air, because it's one of the best shows I'd seen. And unlike Firefly, I'm completely fine with its ending. There was closure. I think another season or two could have made Adelle and Boyd's arcs breathe as well as given us more great use of Alpha. However, as a whole it worked. Just a fantastic show.

Dollhouse was amazing! Eliza Dushku gives a tor de force proformance as Echo. Not only her but everyone in the cast sparkles. The atmosphere It was, on the contrary one of Joss' better ideas.

The part about Dollhouse that sucks is the fact that it started out kind of slow but when it kicked in the later part of the first season it hit it's stride and never let up. I like that show just as much as all his other creations. It's definately not a throwaway show.

 

[Sawyer]

The team verbally going at it with one another felt perfectly Whedon.

 

[Son of Coul]

The way Pepper was like "Hi, Phil" was SO Whedony! Only Joss!

Spoiler

 

[jaymes_e06]

Another: The "Take that all away what do you got" line Cap says to IM is very simular to what Angelus says to Buffy in BTVS.

 

[Joeyjojo72]

My ex still bugs me about watching Dollhouse. I love Whedon, huge fan, but he shouldve been savvy enough by now to know he needed to blow people away right off the bat.

Slow was not an option and he shouldve known that. That said, I'm gonna watch the entire run of Dollhouse over the next few weeks.

 

[Avenger]

My ex still bugs me about watching Dollhouse. I love Whedon, huge fan, but he shouldve been savvy enough by now to know he needed to blow people away right off the bat.

Slow was not an option and he shouldve known that. That said, I'm gonna watch the entire run of Dollhouse over the next few weeks.

The series started off slow because of Fox. The original pilot that Whedon filmed covered just about all of the territory they ended up covering in the first five episodes (which are generally regarded as the weakest), but Fox made Whedon slow things down to make it "easier" for the audience to follow.

 

[Drummerdude7]

Great shows always end up on the wrong networks, and suffer because of it.

(RIP Awake.) Damn NBC.

 

[flickchick85]

My ex still bugs me about watching Dollhouse. I love Whedon, huge fan, but he shouldve been savvy enough by now to know he needed to blow people away right off the bat.

Slow was not an option and he shouldve known that. That said, I'm gonna watch the entire run of Dollhouse over the next few weeks.

Like Avenger said, that was totally Fox's doing. Whedon had to completely throw out his original pilot because Fox thought it was too "dense" (which is Fox code for "complex." See: Ron Moore's excellent Virtuality pilot), had too much information and too much happening for mainstream viewers to follow. So they asked him to simplify it and spread all that stuff across the first few episodes and make them otherwise more stand-alone/newbie-friendly. That's why he warned his fans way before the series started airing that Episode 6 is where they were allowed to get on with it. From what I understand, that episode is basically where the original pilot would have ended.

 

[Joeyjojo72]

thanks for the info guys. i think i remember hearing somehting similar at the time, but i didnt take it as gospel. lol hopefully he now realizes that Whedon and Fox do not mix.

of course this means my ex was probably right. sigh.

 

[flickchick85]

thanks for the info guys. i think i remember hearing somehting similar at the time, but i didnt take it as gospel. lol hopefully he now realizes that Whedon and Fox do not mix.

Haha, I think he knew that before Dollhouse, tbh. It was Eliza Dushku who had a development contract w/ Fox and went to Joss, asking him to create a show for her. I have a feeling that if it were his baby that he was taking around and pitching to the networks, Fox would have been his last choice to take it to, lol.

 

[DACrowe]

Dollhouse was amazing! Eliza Dushku gives a tor de force proformance as Echo. Not only her but everyone in the cast sparkles. The atmosphere It was, on the contrary one of Joss' better ideas.

The part about Dollhouse that sucks is the fact that it started out kind of slow but when it kicked in the later part of the first season it hit it's stride and never let up. I like that show just as much as all his other creations. It's definately not a throwaway show.

Yep. Dushku gets a lot of criticism for that show, but despite having a limited range (not as much as the actors who played Victor and Sierra), she did a very good job of carrying the show as its charismatic lead and had episodes where she could surprise you. One of my favorites was a S1 episode that Joss wrote (the "Our Mrs. Reynolds" of Dollhouse) where she is imprinted with the brain of a late-50-something Northeast blue blood. Her interactions with "her" son and not-so-mourning family was hilarious.

I do think that the strongest performances in the series were Victor, Topher, Adelle and Sierra, but Dushku/Echo anchored the story very well. Just my opinion.

 

[DACrowe]

My ex still bugs me about watching Dollhouse. I love Whedon, huge fan, but he shouldve been savvy enough by now to know he needed to blow people away right off the bat.

Slow was not an option and he shouldve known that. That said, I'm gonna watch the entire run of Dollhouse over the next few weeks.

Hope you love it. Firefly is still my favorite Whedon show, but this became a good second. And, unlike the 'Verse, the story is given closure in its second season. You get all the beats the story was going to hit, it's just 2 seasons instead of something like 6.

Also, the first five episodes are slow. I almost quit, but then episode 6 hooked me in. And by episode 8 I was addicted. Let us know if you like the show after you get far into it.

 

[Joeyjojo72]

Okay thanks. Ill post a brief, technically off-topic review once ive seen the whole run.

 

[jaymes_e06]

Yep. Dushku gets a lot of criticism for that show, but despite having a limited range (not as much as the actors who played Victor and Sierra), she did a very good job of carrying the show as its charismatic lead and had episodes where she could surprise you. One of my favorites was a S1 episode that Joss wrote (the "Our Mrs. Reynolds" of Dollhouse) where she is imprinted with the brain of a late-50-something Northeast blue blood. Her interactions with "her" son and not-so-mourning family was hilarious.

I do think that the strongest performances in the series were Victor, Topher, Adelle and Sierra, but Dushku/Echo anchored the story very well. Just my opinion.

Agreed.

 

[shieldmaiden]

I'm a big fan of Whedon's work...

I hope Captain America (my fave) never loses his idealism... because that's Malcolm Reynolds to a T. Broken, but still honorable. The perfect tragic hero. I <3 Mal. But I <3 Cap too... and don't want to see him broken. In a way, I'm glad that it's not too likely these writers/directors would ever do anything too radical to any of these beloved "old school" characters... because if Cap ever had a really GOOD look at what "his country" has become, it'd be like that scene in the Firefly pilot when Mal calls for reinforcements, believes God will save him and avenge his destroyed planet... and they never come. He's just standing there, wrecked, while his whole world comes down around him.

(As an aside, I'm glad he and Tony called out Fury on his lies and how dirty S.H.I.E.L.D. is.)

Also, Black Widow had a line that really reminded me of Inara. When she was going to jump up onto one of the flyers, she said "Yeah, sure. It'll be fun." She sounded just like her, with delivery and pitch... so tired, and a little vulnerable. It made me smile.

I loved Buffy, too... I didn't get around to watching any of those until after I'd seen Firefly. I thought that if it was THAT popular, it was probably gonna suck. Anyway, I wasn't disappointed, and ended up being a big damn fan.

I wish all life's little problems were easily solved by jamming a stake through 'em...

 

[Pink Ranger]

Banner kind of reminds me of Xander/Wash. Their self-depracating sense of humour, and the fact that they're all characters of seemingly little power or combat ability at first, but often end up saving the entire team at the end.

 

[shieldmaiden]

Banner kind of reminds me of Xander/Wash. Their self-depracating sense of humour, and the fact that they're all characters of seemingly little power or combat ability at first, but often end up saving the entire team at the end.

Oh... good call on that one! t:

 

[pyromaniac]

I loved Buffy, too... I didn't get around to watching any of those until after I'd seen Firefly. I thought that if it was THAT popular, it was probably gonna suck. Anyway, I wasn't disappointed, and ended up being a big damn fan.

I wish all life's little problems were easily solved by jamming a stake through 'em...

But Buffy was only popular in the cult status circuit. It wasn't so far to the point that it became 'overrated' and 'over-hyped' and a 'commercial blockbuster'. Its impact is more layered, subtle but much more rewarding in the process. There is always something to discuss, to think about, to debate for years and years to come. It isn't like Avatar or Titanic, when the story was basic, and only characters' interactions, motive, circumstances etc drive it to a fairly neatly wrapped up conclusion.

That said, 'Into every generation a slayer is born...'