Will a Villain ever get a "Clean" WIN in a CBM?

[DOBSON10]

With this era of connected Universes, I feel like this is something that is possible for the first time really but will any of the studios ever be brave enough to do it? An outright, no take backs victory. Not like Zemo where he kind of wins but we all know that the Avengers will get back together and he's sitting in a jail cell at the end of the movie. Something where the villain commits a horrible act and the movie ends with the villain walking free at the end and his plan completely succeeds.

Because with these movies serving as one big story, they can actually do it. They could end one of these movies with a villain getting a clean win, that can't be undone or reversed and still have him punished for his crime in a later movie.

Would you like to see it, would any studio be brave enough to end a Superhero movie where the hero doesn't win?

 

[Silly Cat]

I don't think too many people would be willing to sit through a film with the bad guy beating the hero. Too depressing, people go to these types of films to be uplifted.

If you are rooting for the villain to win over the hero then their is something fundamentally wrong with the hero, either the way he's written or played. I mean I love the Joker as a bad guy as much as the next person, but I still want Batman to kick his butt at the end of the day, lol

So no I don't see that happening, at least not in any big way, sometimes the villain does and will score some hits against the hero that stick (like in Dark Knight where the Joker did force Batman to take the blame for the greater good) but I don't see any big victory happening anytime soon.

 

[DOBSON10]

I don't think too many people would be willing to sit through a film with the bad guy beating the hero. Too depressing, people go to these types of films to be uplifted.

If you are rooting for the villain to win over the hero then their is something fundamentally wrong with the hero, either the way he's written or played. I mean I love the Joker as a bad guy as much as the next person, but I still want Batman to kick his butt at the end of the day, lol

So no I don't see that happening, at least not in any big way, sometimes the villain does and will score some hits against the hero that stick (like in Dark Knight where the Joker did force Batman to take the blame for the greater good) but I don't see any big victory happening anytime soon.

See, here's my thing, and why I want to see this happen... The pay off... The hero takes a real hit, a real loss, you feel his pain and failure in a way that has never been done before in a CBM and then in a future movie, the pay off, when he defeats the villain is that much greater. I think it would make for an interesting and deeper take on a hero/villain rivalry.

Though I do completely understand your point about audiences not wanting to sit through an entire movie where the villain wins. But because these movies are one continuing long story, I think it's a time where it could work and imagine the shock of the audience when it happens, that's something that is memorable and different and for me would be great. Because again, the villain can always be caught/defeated in a later movie.

 

[NotSoLongAgo]

See, here's my thing, and why I want to see this happen... The pay off... The hero takes a real hit, a real loss, you feel his pain and failure in a way that has never been done before in a CBM and then in a future movie, the pay off, when he defeats the villain is that much greater. I think it would make for an interesting and deeper take on a hero/villain rivalry.

Though I do completely understand your point about audiences not wanting to sit through an entire movie where the villain wins. But because these movies are one continuing long story, I think it's a time where it could work and imagine the shock of the audience when it happens, that's something that is memorable and different and for me would be great. Because again, the villain can always be caught/defeated in a later movie.

I think this is what will happen in Avengers 3 & 4

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

There is a major problem with it and how interconnected the films are, and it is the next film. Like, for example, how can Thanos get a conclusive victory when Ant-Man and Wasp and Captain Marvel are coming out before the next Avengers film?

It would have to be pretty small scale. Homecoming Spoilers: [blackout]Like Vulture "winning" in SHC would have been doable because the stakes were low.[/blackout] It has happened on television. Black Mariah and Shades had a pretty convincing victory in Luke Cage.

 

[DOBSON10]

I think this is what will happen in Avengers 3 & 4

That is the reason why I started the thread, a discussion from another thread about Thanos and Avengers Infinity War.

 

[2kt09]

Yeah...Ruffalo spilled the beans.

 

[DOBSON10]

There is a major problem with it and how interconnected the films are, and it is the next film. Like, for example, how can Thanos get a conclusive victory when Ant-Man and Wasp and Captain Marvel are coming out before the next Avengers film?

It would have to be pretty small scale. Homecoming Spoilers: [blackout]Like Vulture "winning" in SHC would have been doable because the stakes were low.[/blackout] It has happened on television. Black Mariah and Shades had a pretty convincing victory in Luke Cage.

I definitely understand why it's difficult and why it's something alot of people wouldn't want to see but I think it would add alot of depth to an ongoing story of a hero/villain rivalry. Even though the Thanos/Infinity War discussion is what led me to create the thread, it's obviously more doable in a solo superhero movie as part of a trilogy. And when I thought about it, the first villain that came to mind is obviously The Joker, because of his long history and rivalry with Batman and continued conflicts they have against each other.

 

[John Locke]

The Joker's win in TDK is probably the closest it will ever come. Sure he ended up in jail but avoiding jail wasn't high up on his to do list.

 

[CB Fan]

Spoiler

Yeah...Ruffalo spilled the beans

.

Yeah...and so did you apparently. Spoiler tag please.

 

[NotSoLongAgo]

I'm pretty certain Ruffalo's comment was a joke. He's done the same thing for AOU.

 

[Kev4000]

The Joker's win in TDK is probably the closest it will ever come. Sure he ended up in jail but avoiding jail wasn't high up on his to do list.

Zemo reached his Goal too, as he said in his last Scene.

 

[StormC]

Basically it sounds like you're asking for an Empire Strikes Back ending, which, yeah, TDK provided, but that isn't as easy in a massive shared universe.

 

[Mjölnir]

The Joker's win in TDK is probably the closest it will ever come. Sure he ended up in jail but avoiding jail wasn't high up on his to do list.

That's not his only failure. He never managed to create real chaos, Gotham's soul was intact and no one got to know that Dent went insane.

 

[Batmannerism]

Zemo reached his Goal too, as he said in his last Scene.

Agreed. Zemo achieved what he set out to do - although he expected to be dead shortly thereafter, so not sure if him surviving is a win or not - it's a win for us because it means that the MCU gets to bring back a relatable and understated villain.

 

[DrCosmic]

Zemo's in jail and Cap sends Tony an apology and a promise to be there for him. Zemo didn't break up the Avengers, he just broke up their weekly poker game.

Ozymandias from Watchmen. A villain true victory in a superhero movie is either a deconstruction of the superhero genre or more likely: an earlier part of a larger story in which they will lose. A superhero story where the villain wins is like a fairy tale without a moral, or a mystery tale without a solution. It can be, and has been done, but it's rare, and even when it's done, even for Watchmen, the victory is left ambiguous so that people can project their expectations onto the ending, like the top in Inception.

 

[DOBSON10]

Zemo's in jail and Cap sends Tony an apology and a promise to be there for him. Zemo didn't break up the Avengers, he just broke up their weekly poker game.

Ozymandias from Watchmen. A villain true victory in a superhero movie is either a deconstruction of the superhero genre or more likely: an earlier part of a larger story in which they will lose. A superhero story where the villain wins is like a fairy tale without a moral, or a mystery tale without a solution. It can be, and has been done, but it's rare, and even when it's done, even for Watchmen, the victory is left ambiguous so that people can project their expectations onto the ending, like the top in Inception.

Yeah, I purposely wrote "Clean Win" in the title and mentioned Zemo in my original post because that just wasn't a victory to me, it's a speed bump that will be mostly forgotten the moment Thanos shows up and Zemo is already paying for his crime, not sure how likely it is he returns.

The whole point for me, of ending one of these films with the villain winning a Round, cleanly, is that it stretches the Rivalry between a hero/villain and gives it a deeper competition, where it's not a one sided clean hero victory every time and makes it feel like the villain is an actual threat. It's starting to get tough watching these movies when the villain never comes out on top, we know in the end the villain is always going to be defeated, and even in my scenario, that's still the case because in a sequel he'd be defeated but it would give it more of a real feel, because no matter how great a hero is, if they face enough competent villains, they're going to take one on the chin, hard, clean, eventually, otherwise the villains are just incompetent speed bumps that never really do much of anything but cause a hassle for the hero for 2 hours. It's starting to feel like watching the Super Bowl where they announce who's going to win before the game starts, not a perfect analogy but it's just becoming too predictable and making villains not feel like a real threat. I mean, even skipping the "clean win" part, very few of these villains lately really ever even "Feel" like they're going to win. They have to find a way to at least make it feel like the villain is going to win for longer than a few seconds or minutes, otherwise it's just underwhelming, at least for me personally.

Ozymandias is a better example for sure. That's probably the closest we'll ever get.

 

[Frankeh]

The Joker succesfully created Two Face. Is that a win?

 

[StormC]

I mean, these are superhero movies. The plots aren't exactly going to take tons of twists and turns. Villain shows up and causes trouble, cue a series of fights between good guys and villain until eventually the villain is defeated, possibly with some casualties along the way. It's more about the journey than the destination, as they say.

Yes, The Dark Knight trilogy largely bucked this trend, but those were in the hands of an auteur who reveled in challenging the audience's expectations. You aren't going to get that with every superhero movie. That was lightning in a bottle.

 

[2kt09]

Yes, The Dark Knight trilogy largely bucked this trend, but those were in the hands of an auteur who reveled in challenging the audience's expectations. You aren't going to get that with every superhero movie. That was lightning in a bottle.

True. BvS has to be one-and-done to keep the ball rolling.

 

[Mjölnir]

The Joker succesfully created Two Face. Is that a win?

Not really, since he didn't get what he wanted out of it as no one found out what had happened. The Joker's goal was to make Gotham descend into chaos, which never happened.

The good guys won in TDK. They had to pay a price to do it, but that happens in a lot of movies.

 

[Grommers]

I think the OP is referring to - there wasn't any redemption for the hero at all.

TDK's redemption was that Gotham was safe, and still had it's soul. Despite the "joker" destroying batman and his image, Gotham still was saved (from our titular hero)

I assume he means a story more like the ending of the "Mist", where the ending

Spoiler

Driving through the mist, David finds his house destroyed and his wife dead. Devastated, he drives the group south, passing destroyed vehicles and seeing a gigantic six-legged, tentacled beast. When they run out of gas, the group decides there is no point in going on. David shoots the others (with their consent, except for his son who is not old enough to understand) rather than have them endure horrifying deaths, but is left with no bullet to use on himself. He leaves the car and waits to be killed, but the mist suddenly recedes, revealing that the U.S. Army has arrived, managed to close the portal, rescued survivors, and restored order. Among the survivors is the woman who left the store at the phenomenon's onset, completely unscathed and having rescued her two children. David realizes that they were only moments from being rescued, likely having been driving away from help the entire time, and drops to his knees screaming.

As taken by Wiki, you realize the hero is completely defeated, and there isn't anything positive to be taken from the movie itself.


I think it's possible, but will require the right story and I imagine, it has to be clear that the series will be a trilogy.

I often think this might be the best way for a "Blue Beetle" film to be filmed, and would be a really cool way for it to pass the mantle. Have (ted kord) be the first hero, second movie have him die and the villain start his take over, and finish it up with Jaime as the blue beetle saving the day in a three part trilogy.

 

[Brother Jack]

That's not his only failure. He never managed to create real chaos, Gotham's soul was intact and no one got to know that Dent went insane.

The Joker didn't end up victorious, but Batman didn't really win either. The ending was a stalemate. Batman falling on the sword and Bruce effectively ruining his own life to stop the city from falling apart... which it eventually did anyway with Bane. The latter two films of TDKT are predominantly about Bruce/Batman's failures when you think about it. There are victories but they're won at huge prices and after long periods of trial and suffering.

 

[Mjölnir]

The Joker didn't end up victorious, but Batman didn't really win either. The ending was a stalemate. Batman falling on the sword and Bruce effectively ruining his own life to stop the city from falling apart... which it eventually did anyway with Bane. The latter two films of TDKT are predominantly about Bruce/Batman's failures when you think about it. There are victories but they're won at huge prices and after long periods of trial and suffering.

It's as you say in your last sentence, they do win. The wins come at a cost, which it does in tons of movies, but they still win. The Joker's plans were stopped and not fulfilled - that's a win. Batman says that he'll be the dark knight because that's what Gotham needs and he's the one strong enough to do it.

The thread is about when the villain wins. One example of that, which is not a CBM, is Seven. John Doe straight up wins in that movie.

 

[DrCosmic]

Yeah, I purposely wrote "Clean Win" in the title and mentioned Zemo in my original post because that just wasn't a victory to me, it's a speed bump that will be mostly forgotten the moment Thanos shows up and Zemo is already paying for his crime, not sure how likely it is he returns.

The whole point for me, of ending one of these films with the villain winning a Round, cleanly, is that it stretches the Rivalry between a hero/villain and gives it a deeper competition, where it's not a one sided clean hero victory every time and makes it feel like the villain is an actual threat. It's starting to get tough watching these movies when the villain never comes out on top, we know in the end the villain is always going to be defeated, and even in my scenario, that's still the case because in a sequel he'd be defeated but it would give it more of a real feel, because no matter how great a hero is, if they face enough competent villains, they're going to take one on the chin, hard, clean, eventually, otherwise the villains are just incompetent speed bumps that never really do much of anything but cause a hassle for the hero for 2 hours. It's starting to feel like watching the Super Bowl where they announce who's going to win before the game starts, not a perfect analogy but it's just becoming too predictable and making villains not feel like a real threat. I mean, even skipping the "clean win" part, very few of these villains lately really ever even "Feel" like they're going to win. They have to find a way to at least make it feel like the villain is going to win for longer than a few seconds or minutes, otherwise it's just underwhelming, at least for me personally.

Ozymandias is a better example for sure. That's probably the closest we'll ever get.

I don't know, ever is a long time. One idea that popped up in a shared universe where each hero has a individual movie that leads to a team up would be if one of the heroes died and their villain was the team up movie's villain. Like, in the MCU's case, though it would never happen, what if Loki successfully killed Thor. He did, but you know what I mean. Loki going into Avengers then seems like a total badarse who might win.

Of course, nothing will work forever. Eventually savvy audience members will get to the point where, like my friend, they can call the ending of 99% of films after five minutes. The only choice, in your analogy, is to either stop watching Superbowls or start just enjoying the beauty of the game regardless of the winner.