Discussion: Healthcare

[hippie_hunter]

Federal courts in Florida are allowing Florida and 19 other states to challenge mandated health insurance and the requirement for states to expand Medicaid. The rest of the charges have been thrown out.

The judge also ruled that those taxed or penalized by not purchasing insurance are being penalized, not taxed. The government cannot use Congress' taxing authority to defend the law but instead must use the Commerce Clause to defend their position. The judge then compared the government's argument that it was a tax and not a penalty to Alice in Wonderland.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1010/43626.html

Looks like the other major case didn't get thrown out

 

[StorminNorman]

So most of the States decided that it was better to allow their residents elect their represetiatives rather than by State Legislature becase the people in State government were too dumb right?

Yea, pretty much. That's what happens when we are governed by politicians and not political philosophers.

There have been a small minority of economist that are concerned that a double dip recession will happen, but no one has officially declared that it has. Unemployment, a lagging economic indicator by the way, has held steady at about 9.5 to 9.6% for months now and the rate of job losses are no where near as great as the 700,000 a month that occured back in January of last year. The stock market is doing great as of late and the automobile companies that were in such trouble a year ago are now able to stand on their own feet. Furthermore, I don't see where FDR failed. Can you name another President that was able to serve 3 and a half successive terms in office?

The "small minority of economists" were also the ones that predicted the crisis while everyone else was encouraging the policies that created it.

I am not implying. I am telling you that the General Wellfare and Commerce Clauses give the Federal Government the power to do these things. See Wickard v. Filburn, 1942.

The General Welfare isn't relevant because we aren't talking about taxing marijuana but it's ability to be sold at all. The Commerce Clause is to regulate interstate commerce. I don't care if 9 idiots in robes want to pretend that innerstate = interstate but the reality remains that interstate = between the states and that innerstate = within a state.

Now you are trying to make me say things that I didn't. Marijuana is a controlled substance under Ferderal laws and banning its cultivation and production is the method of control. According to the Federal government, marijuana has a high potential for abuse, a lack of safety standards for its use, and no currently accepted medical use. That is the fact.

And the Federal Government has no right to make such judgments for Americans.

A majority of folks do.

Only a man desperate for a master wants an active government. I don't believe you can provide any poll that shows "a majority" wants such a being.

 

[dnno1]

Yea, pretty much. That's what happens when we are governed by politicians and not political philosophers.

Get real, guy! Just because it didn't go down the way you wanted it to does not mean that all politicians are incompetent. In fact the majority of them are competent.

The "small minority of economists" were also the ones that predicted the crisis while everyone else was encouraging the policies that created it.

Yeah, but did they suggest any real solutions to the problem?

The General Welfare isn't relevant because we aren't talking about taxing marijuana but it's ability to be sold at all. The Commerce Clause is to regulate interstate commerce. I don't care if 9 idiots in robes want to pretend that innerstate = interstate but the reality remains that interstate = between the states and that innerstate = within a state.

If I can remember correctly, it was the Marihuana Tax Act of 1937 that criminalized marijuana, so yeah, the General Welfare clause is relevant.

And the Federal Government has no right to make such judgments for Americans.

I only like to use the word "rights" with people, not with governments. They have powers. That being said, the government has the power to say/suggest what is right and wrong for you since you are their liability/responsibility and they have the duty and power to provide for and protect your own good -- even if you think they shouldn't.

Only a man desperate for a master wants an active government. I don't believe you can provide any poll that shows "a majority" wants such a being.

So do people who wants real time solutions like jobs, unemployment benefits, financial reform, health care reform, help for small businesses and economic stimulus. So do wealthy billionaires who what a government that will subsidize their losses and privatize the profits. Like I said before, get real. It's not just people who are desperate for a master.

 

[StorminNorman]

Get real, guy! Just because it didn't go down the way you wanted it to does not mean that all politicians are incompetent. In fact the majority of them are competent.

I rest my case.

Yeah, but did they suggest any real solutions to the problem?

Yes. A stable currency. A drastic cut in domestic spending. A reformation of the tax code.

Watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0nERTFo-Sk

If I can remember correctly, it was the Marihuana Tax Act of 1937 that criminalized marijuana, so yeah, the General Welfare clause is relevant.

Making it illegal to grow a plant is not a tax matter. Stop looking at government policy and just look at reality. You are trying to say that the ability to tax should be able to prevent me from planting (on land I pay tax on) a plant.

Stop wearing a damn progressive hat and tell me what you deep down as a human being believe. Do you believe that the Federal Government, using the power to tax as justification, has the right to tell you you cannot grow a plant in your land?

 

[dnno1]

I rest my case.

Ok, since you agree that most politicians are competent, I will rest mines on that point as well.

Yes. A stable currency. A drastic cut in domestic spending. A reformation of the tax code.

Watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0nERTFo-Sk

How was that going to stop the job losses and the housing market crash? That, along with sub-prime lending, easy credit, predatory lending, and deregulation are what caused the economic crisis.

Making it illegal to grow a plant is not a tax matter. Stop looking at government policy and just look at reality. You are trying to say that the ability to tax should be able to prevent me from planting (on land I pay tax on) a plant.

Well, I am trying to say that if you want to sell or smoke weed without paying the tax, you go to jail, and people have gone to jail because of it.

Stop wearing a damn progressive hat and tell me what you deep down as a human being believe. Do you believe that the Federal Government, using the power to tax as justification, has the right to tell you you cannot grow a plant in your land?

That and the power to regulate interstate commerce, yes.

 

[StorminNorman]

Ok, since you agree that most politicians are competent, I will rest mines on that point as well.

Most politicians are not competent. Most politicians are well-intentioned, but not competent.

How was that going to stop the job losses and the housing market crash? That, along with sub-prime lending, easy credit, predatory lending, and deregulation are what caused the economic crisis.

It would stop the housing market crash by allowing the market to right itself (if such policy would have been enacted earlier we would have had no housing market crash as the government wouldn't have created the artificial housing boom). Deregulation did nothing to cause the economic crisis, it was the regulation in the hopes of putting more people in houses they couldn't afford that caused the crisis.

Well, I am trying to say that if you want to sell or smoke weed without paying the tax, you go to jail, and people have gone to jail because of it.

That's not the question. I am not asking what this government says, I am saying you as a human being. Do you think the government should be able to tell someone they can't grow a plant?

That and the power to regulate interstate commerce, yes.

I hope you grow out of this.

 

[moraldeficiency]

I agree with norman on this 100 + 10%. Hemp (I don't use the term MJ as it's just mexican slang that lobbyists decided that anything mexican and slanging would scare white people more back in the day) has been legal and used in the US far longer than illegal and used I should mention by several of our founding fathers and they seem to have done ok.

It has far more legitimate and far less detrimental effects than most prescription drugs currently available and also many over the counter ones as well. It is proven to be less dangerous (far less so) than alcohol and actually impairs violent or abusive impulses in its users.

Hemp is a plant that has many uses. Even outside of smoking it is more nutritious than almost anything that can be easily grown. As a fiber it's stronger than most everything else and lasts longer. There is no legitimate reason that it is illegal. Some laws are just stupid and need to be corrected. That's the great thing about the US, one of the main reasons I chose to immigrate here.

 

[dnno1]

Most politicians are not competent. Most politicians are well-intentioned, but not competent.

I thought you rested your case on that. Anyway, you will have to show some data to support that claim.

It would stop the housing market crash by allowing the market to right itself (if such policy would have been enacted earlier we would have had no housing market crash as the government wouldn't have created the artificial housing boom). Deregulation did nothing to cause the economic crisis, it was the regulation in the hopes of putting more people in houses they couldn't afford that caused the crisis.

I don't see how that would fix a bad loan or the fact that a home owner lost his job to someone overseas. Deregulation caused the creation of Credit Default Swaps, which aided in virtually bringing down the entire world economy. Keep denying the fact that deregulation did nothing. Those who fail to heed the course of history are doomed to repeat it (-- George Santayana).

That's not the question. I am not asking what this government says, I am saying you as a human being. Do you think the government should be able to tell someone they can't grow a plant?

Yep, if there is a justifiable reason for it.

I hope you grow out of this.

I finished growing a long time ago.

 

[moraldeficiency]

I finished growing a long time ago.

You should try viagra or something. Personally I couldn't live without sex.

 

[dnno1]

You should try viagra or something. Personally I couldn't live without sex.

Spoiler

There are other thing better than Viagra that are more natural.

 

[moraldeficiency]

Just trying to help you with your growth problem fella. Me, I grow on a regular basis and have no need of your voodoo herbs but I do support your freedom to grow them in your yard if you want.

 

[chaseter]

I need a pill that quells these things.

 

[dnno1]

Just trying to help you with your growth problem fella. Me, I grow on a regular basis and have no need of your voodoo herbs but I do support your freedom to grow them in your yard if you want.

I'm not talking about voodoo herbs or herbs at all. I am talking about something you body naturally productes.

 

[davidwillson]

So, what you are saying Sparkie is that you want Universal Healthcare in the United States at the Taxpayers expense, and put control of the healthcare of 300,000,000 + people in the hands of the Government of the United States, AND you don't support larger Government. Run that by me one more time... How is my assumption wrong?

I'm sorry, but just so you know, Legal immigrants are NOT cheap labor, as their immigrant status affords them the luxury of demanding the same as citizens.
cheap labor comes from Illegal immigrants, so again, the borders should only scan for criminal and threatening elements, ICE should be disbanded under YOUR rationale.



___________________
watch movies online

 

[moraldeficiency]

I'm not talking about voodoo herbs or herbs at all. I am talking about something you body naturally productes.

And I was just trying to help with your growth problem. If it's been so long you should probably take something.

 

[StorminNorman]

I thought you rested your case on that. Anyway, you will have to show some data to support that claim.

What I rested my case on was the fact that you would defend politicians as competent when everything points to that not being true. Anyone satisfied with the quality of politician we have in America is someone whose fundamentals need to be questioned.

I don't see how that would fix a bad loan or the fact that a home owner lost his job to someone overseas. Deregulation caused the creation of Credit Default Swaps, which aided in virtually bringing down the entire world economy. Keep denying the fact that deregulation did nothing. Those who fail to heed the course of history are doomed to repeat it (-- George Santayana).

The irony is that you are supporting the same failed policies of the great depression with Bush and Obama.

I finished growing a long time ago.

That's unfortunate. I grow everyday. My opinion even more so.

 

[dnno1]

What I rested my case on was the fact that you would defend politicians as competent when everything points to that not being true. Anyone satisfied with the quality of politician we have in America is someone whose fundamentals need to be questioned.

Look, you have no credible data showing that most politicians are incompetent. In fact that premise is subjective and debatable at best. Go ahead and rest your case on that, but you aren't right at all.

The irony is that you are supporting the same failed policies of the great depression with Bush and Obama.

I didn't vote for either of the Bush nor did I support all of their policies. What they did served to get us into recessions. At least with Obama, we got the automobile industry back on their feet, and stocks on the rise. Its only a matter of time before employment (a lagging indicator in the economy) is on the rise as well.

That's unfortunate. I grow everyday. My opinion even more so.

I meant physically.

 

[dnno1]

And I was just trying to help with your growth problem. If it's been so long you should probably take something.

I never said I had a growth problem. I just said I grew up a long time ago (meaning I've already grown). Looking at your username btw, it looks like you might need some help.

 

[moraldeficiency]

I never said I had a growth problem. I just said I grew up a long time ago (meaning I've already grown). Looking at your username btw, it looks like you might need some help.

Yes it's called a joke. You said you finished growing a long time ago so I made a penis joke.

What's wrong with moraldeficiency? Well the short answer would be a lot. But the username suits me. However if you wanted to help me in say the form of a large check, rare jewels or mass quantities of twinkies (gotta stock up for the upcoming zombie apocalypse) I wouldn't say no...

But I'm thinking as serious as you seem to take yourself, some of that stuff that people can't legally grow anymore that you're so anti based on what the gov. changed it's mind about to make way for the plastic industry might be exactly what you could use.

 

[dnno1]

Yes it's called a joke. You said you finished growing a long time ago so I made a penis joke.

Yep, I'm all grown up now. No need to keep growing there. My wife is happy at least.

What's wrong with moraldeficiency? Well the short answer would be a lot. But the username suits me. However if you wanted to help me in say the form of a large check, rare jewels or mass quantities of twinkies (gotta stock up for the upcoming zombie apocalypse) I wouldn't say no...

This is about the best I could do for you under the circumstances:

But I'm thinking as serious as you seem to take yourself, some of that stuff that people can't legally grow anymore that you're so anti based on what the gov. changed it's mind about to make way for the plastic industry might be exactly what you could use.

You mean hemp? It's more than just that. The Surgeon General posted these known or suspected effects of marijuana (see http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00001143.htm):

1. short-term memory impairment and slowness of learning.
2. impaired lung function similar to that found in cigarette smokers. Indications are that more serious effects, such as cancer and other lung disease, follow extended use.
3. decreased sperm count and sperm motility.
4. interference with ovulation and pre-natal development.
5. impaired immune response.
6. possible adverse effects on heart function.
7. by-products of marijuana remaining in body fat for several weeks, with unknown consequences. The storage of these by-products increases the possibilities for chronic, as well as residual, effects on performance, even after the acute reaction to the drug has worn off. Of special concern are the long-term developmental effects in children and adolescents, who are particularly vulnerable to the drug's behavioral and psychological effects. The "amotivational syndrome," characterized by a pattern of energy loss, diminished school performance, harmed parental relationships, and other behavioral disruptions, has been associated with prolonged marijuana use by young persons. Although more research is required, recent national surveys report that 40% of heavy users experience some or all of those symptoms.

Legalizing/decriminalizing marijuana is going to be a lot more complex than just passing a state law through popular election. The Federal government is committed to classifying marijuana as a controlled substance through the Controlled Substance Act in compliance with an international treaty with the World Health Organization (reference Article 3 of the WHO Single Convention on Narcotic Drugs and Article 2 of the Convention on Phycotropic Substaces). Because this is an international treaty of which the United States has signed on to we are bound by it and it is (along with the CSA) supreme law of the land (in spite what any State may legislate within its domain). It is doubtful that you will see a SCOTUS overturn the CSA since this has been tried before (5 years ago) and was unsuccessful.

 

[StorminNorman]

Why do you want the government deciding what you can and cannot consume? Don't you believe that you know your body better than they do?

 

[Kelly]

I know that I know my body better than anyone....but I'm not sure my neighbor knows what is too much for himself, because he has dented a few cars around here while....under the influence so to speak.

 

[StorminNorman]

I know that I know my body better than anyone....but I'm not sure my neighbor knows what is too much for himself, because he has dented a few cars around here while....under the influence so to speak.

That's why we have government, to make sure that those that infringe upon the property of others (be it out of ignorance or malice) have to make up their losses.

 

[moraldeficiency]

Yep, I'm all grown up now. No need to keep growing there. My wife is happy at least.



This is about the best I could do for you under the circumstances:

You mean hemp? It's more than just that. The Surgeon General posted these known or suspected effects of marijuana (see http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00001143.htm):

1. short-term memory impairment and slowness of learning.
2. impaired lung function similar to that found in cigarette smokers. Indications are that more serious effects, such as cancer and other lung disease, follow extended use.
3. decreased sperm count and sperm motility.
4. interference with ovulation and pre-natal development.
5. impaired immune response.
6. possible adverse effects on heart function.
7. by-products of marijuana remaining in body fat for several weeks, with unknown consequences. The storage of these by-products increases the possibilities for chronic, as well as residual, effects on performance, even after the acute reaction to the drug has worn off. Of special concern are the long-term developmental effects in children and adolescents, who are particularly vulnerable to the drug's behavioral and psychological effects. The "amotivational syndrome," characterized by a pattern of energy loss, diminished school performance, harmed parental relationships, and other behavioral disruptions, has been associated with prolonged marijuana use by young persons. Although more research is required, recent national surveys report that 40% of heavy users experience some or all of those symptoms.

Legalizing/decriminalizing marijuana is going to be a lot more complex than just passing a state law through popular election. The Federal government is committed to classifying marijuana as a controlled substance through the Controlled Substance Act in compliance with an international treaty with the World Health Organization (reference Article 3 of the WHO Single Convention on Narcotic Drugs and Article 2 of the Convention on Phycotropic Substaces). Because this is an international treaty of which the United States has signed on to we are bound by it and it is (along with the CSA) supreme law of the land (in spite what any State may legislate within its domain). It is doubtful that you will see a SCOTUS overturn the CSA since this has been tried before (5 years ago) and was unsuccessful.

How can she be happy if you haven't grown in years?

I picture of a twinkie mountain, though a cool one does not help me. Give me money like you said.

Suspected? Don't give me that. People suspect UFO's screwed apes and made mankind. Let's go with facts. Fact, hemp has less detrimental effects than any prescription medication available. It is also less harmful than alcohol, cigs and has caused less deaths than coffee, sugar, meats or water. (that's right people can actually OD on water, but not hemp oddly enough).

It has never been proven that smoking causes any impaired driving, although cell phones, radios or people in the car have been proven. And they've done countless tests on this.

Fact. Hemp has been legal in this country for 5 times longer than it's been illegal and was used by our founding fathers. Fact, hemp oils can be used to save thousands from malnutrition. Fact, the gov. has issued hemp cigs to people in a test study for long term pain suffering and all of these people have been (they still do) living productive lives as professionals with no adverse effects and remarkable improvements in their lives. Fact, hemp smoke unlike alcohol or any stimulant curbs violent impulses and behavior.

And finally...fact, you seriously need to smoke a fatty.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Bleh, I hate marijuana