99.9 % Human - 0.01% Animal: Embryo Lives For 3 Days

[Figs]

That's just the media and Hollywood scaring the crap out of people who aren't educated in a life science background... now I ain't an expert or anything... but I do know you can't solve genetic diseases unless you get right down to the DNA itself and f*** around with it (in a good way)... cancer, cognitive disorders, diseases... there isn't a magical pill or vaccine to everything.

But the future is the future. Eventually aging will be a thing of the past. Parents will be picking hand pick the genes for their kids. It is what it is... you can't tell me what's for the better and what isn't... that's just your belief and I respect that. It all part of human evolution and expanding our abilities... Grandpa's genes ain't gonna get it done when we go into the 21st century and beyond.

What do you mean by it's the media trying to scare people exactly?

So their not really doing stem cell research or their just trying to make it sound bad?

I don't know about whether what's better and what isn't but I don't like the idea of being able to, as you put it as an example, being able to hand pick genes for your kids. I just think in the long run it will start to lower the value of human life.

Similar to Euthanasia, this person isn't fit to live type stuff. That and the whole idea of hand picking genes seems like it will make the respect for human life a little trivial. I can just see people in the future doing it as if their shopping for clothes or something.

For all I know, maybe I'll warm up to it in the future but as of now I'm sort of in the middle on it.

 

[Lighthouse]

Here's the way I see it. We have natural selection, where better traits for survival are passed on, while the less favorable traits become less common, because the inferior ones die because of those genes. Nature has been doing this fine tuning for billions of years. Then man arrives on Earth, and with technological advancement, his part in natural selection starts to deviate, and mankind starts to take over his genetic destiny. Medical breakthroughs allow people to live much longer than they normally would, weaker genes are allowed to continue passing on. I'm afraid that this idea of choosing traits of your children will be the final breaking point, and that we will finally have full control over our genetic destiny. If mankind was perfect, this would be great, but we are not. We make mistakes. If people can choose the sex of their baby, we might have an over abundance of boys over girls, or vice versa. Its a whole list of possibilities that can go wrong.

 

[FaT_tONle]

What do you mean by it's the media trying to scare people exactly?

So their not really doing stem cell research or their just trying to make it sound bad?

I don't know about whether what's better and what isn't but I don't like the idea of being able to, as you put it as an example, being able to hand pick genes for your kids. I just think in the long run it will start to lower the value of human life.

Similar to Euthanasia, this person isn't fit to live type stuff. That and the whole idea of hand picking genes seems like it will make the respect for human life a little trivial. I can just see people in the future doing it as if their shopping for clothes or something.

For all I know, maybe I'll warm up to it in the future but as of now I'm sort of in the middle on it.

Maybe not the media... if anything they have been pro-stem cells... but Hollywood... yes... but the days we are talking about... while they might be around the corner... are still quite a ways off... yeah eventually pregnancy is going to happen in the labs. That's probably the best place for it. Think about it... both parents will by that time have their entire genome sequenced... if they see anything deleterious take it out... put something else in. Really doesn't change anything.

Again... I am just one of those guys that believes in the future... you have to get society up to par with the standard. Babies with disablilties at the molecular level will always be at a disadvantage for the rest of their lives... there is only so much psychotreatment and medications can do. If all babies are born 100% healthy... that's a day worth striving for I'll tell you that much.

 

[Leto Atrides]

Yeah, but survival and nature formed human evolution, not us. By doing this, we are basically taking ourselves even farther away from human evolution(which we've already done somewhat with through medical discoveries). But instead of choosing traits for survival, we'll be choosing them for our own purposes. Making them tall, blonde, brunette, athletic, or even male or female.

That's not at all how evolution works. Nothing we can do can possibly separate us from evolution as long as we still have DNA that's changing.

 

[Leto Atrides]

Here's the way I see it. We have natural selection, where better traits for survival are passed on, while the less favorable traits become less common, because the inferior ones die because of those genes. Nature has been doing this fine tuning for billions of years. Then man arrives on Earth, and with technological advancement, his part in natural selection starts to deviate, and mankind starts to take over his genetic destiny. Medical breakthroughs allow people to live much longer than they normally would, weaker genes are allowed to continue passing on. I'm afraid that this idea of choosing traits of your children will be the final breaking point, and that we will finally have full control over our genetic destiny. If mankind was perfect, this would be great, but we are not. We make mistakes. If people can choose the sex of their baby, we might have an over abundance of boys over girls, or vice versa. Its a whole list of possibilities that can go wrong.

Again, everything technically has a choice over their "genetic destiny", its called sexual selection.

 

[Jerry!]

All I'm saying is when it comes to things like these that a good number of "the people" are against or at least unsure of, they always start off small. They move it in slow steps over time to let it warm up to the people, at least the ones who don't agree with it.

It may be about finding cures and remedies for now but in the future I'm sure it will go down the immoral path.

Were practically there now with stem cell research...I guess I find it immoral since I'm more on the pro-life side.

I do see why a lot of people like it for the fact their currently trying to use it for cures/remedies but at the same time I don't think it's the right path to go down. That's just me.

I'm not trying to point fingers at people who believe in this so sorry if I came off that way.

Sounds basically like you are afraid of the future. That's old, broken, backwards thinking. We don't get anywhere thinking like that.

 

[millennium movies]

No your not the only one.

I think all this cell s*** is disgusting. Who in the hell wants to live on this s*** hole planet forever??

I don't think we should be tampering with mother nature to this extreme level.

Instead of trying to find cures for things, were now just trying to find ways to clone someone kill the clone for say...an arm or leg that someone had removed because of cancer for instance.

Welcome to The Island!

PS: I do agree with both, you and Matt.

 

[Figs]

Sounds basically like you are afraid of the future. That's old, broken, backwards thinking. We don't get anywhere thinking like that.

Sorry but this has an effect on morals/morality in life. I'm not afraid of the future, it's just I don't fully agree with all of this.


Then again...maybe I am a bit afraid of the future. Not in terms of learning new things and exploration but just where were currently headed.

 

[millennium movies]

People are just to blind to see the consequences, that's until it comes slapping them right in the face. Yup, that's the world of today, living in denial/ignorance.

 

[The Apocalypse]

It'll be possible one day!

 

[Arcturus]

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,23476268-38200,00.html?from=public_rss#

Perhaps a foreshadowing to Manbearpig?

 

[Jerry!]

Sorry but this has an effect on morals/morality in life. I'm not afraid of the future, it's just I don't fully agree with all of this.


Then again...maybe I am a bit afraid of the future. Not in terms of learning new things and exploration but just where were currently headed.

People take this morals thing way too far. This is potentially the opportunity to make a break through and help countless people from suffering around the world. And the excuse "we're scared of where it may be headed" is what is stopping us? This is learning new things, this is exploration, maybe answering some of the previous unknowns. It's the way we advance as a civilization. Again, some people are scared of that, you sound like one of them. That's just where we differ.

 

[Figs]

People take this morals thing way too far. This is potentially the opportunity to make a break through and help countless people from suffering around the world. And the excuse "we're scared of where it may be headed" is what is stopping us? This is learning new things, this is exploration, maybe answering some of the previous unknowns. It's the way we advance as a civilization. Again, some people are scared of that, you sound like one of them. That's just where we differ.

I'll say this one more time...I'm not afraid of it.

As millenium movies put it...some people are blind to the consequences untill it slaps them in the face.

How in the hell can you say people take morals way too far??

Where is the line crossed where..."NOPE! We can't have morals this high, it's not good" is acceptable?

All this possible picking of your childrens genes and whatnot is only going to trivialize and devalue human life. I don't think human life should be looked at as just some 'thing'.

It's thinking like that, that leads the way to full on Euthanasia over time where the elderly or sick/mental don't have a say whether they can keep their own life. Where someone else other than that individual makes that decision.

 

[Jerry!]

Well what the hell do you want? This IS exploring the unknown. Who knows what it will yield. But to not follow up on it because of ASSUMPTIONS and jumping to conclusions years and years from now is just asinine.

 

[Captain Planet!]

I wanna be a Cowboy.

 

[Figs]

Well what the hell do you want? This IS exploring the unknown. Who knows what it will yield. But to not follow up on it because of ASSUMPTIONS and jumping to conclusions years and years from now is just asinine.

Assumptions is what you call it I guess.

After awhile I get tired of talking to people who don't make it a point to remember their history so they can learn from the mistakes in the past.

When I say mistakes in the past I'm not hinting that all this cell research was tried before. Just the morality part of human life and what I said about Euthanasia.

I truly hope it doesn't come down to that...not while I'm still alive at least. If it doesn't then I'll agree with you that the research and testing paid off...but looking at human nature throughout the past I don't think that's going to happen.

 

[FaT_tONle]

I'll say this one more time...I'm not afraid of it.

As millenium movies put it...some people are blind to the consequences untill it slaps them in the face.

How in the hell can you say people take morals way too far??

Where is the line crossed where..."NOPE! We can't have morals this high, it's not good" is acceptable?

All this possible picking of your childrens genes and whatnot is only going to trivialize and devalue human life. I don't think human life should be looked at as just some 'thing'.

It's thinking like that, that leads the way to full on Euthanasia over time where the elderly or sick/mental don't have a say whether they can keep their own life. Where someone else other than that individual makes that decision.

Yeah the day that happens is the day civilized government falls... you can't clump Euthanasia with cloning by saying one will cause the other... Genetic engineering does not mean people who become useless to society will be sent to the gas chamber. I get the argument that you are making don't get me wrong. Its just not valid when you are talking about fully developed human beings. The fields of medicine and psychotherapy will always be there to work with those people at a disadvantage. Its the research that will make those jobs a heck of a lot easier and effective for the future.

Now we don't even know what the first steps will be when it comes to humans but I can make some safe assumptions... one day the entire human genome (including yours and mine probably in our lifetimes btw) will be sequenced and we are going to be able to account for every gene in our genomes (only 30,000 or so). Its possible they may be able to make all the DNA revisions even before fertilization. Are we going to consider every sperm cell you and I let loose every other day a human entity? Its pretty ridiculous if you ask me. I mean as long as the government isn't building a clone army or anything. I can GUARANTEE cloning humans for anything but medical reasons will be illegal for another hundred years. The government won't be holding embyro's for sale only to be sold to the highest bidder... that is all nonsense. The only human clones that will be allowed are clones that are developed from legally married couples with a stable background who are financially okay. You continue that for about 100 years and eventually birth defects will completely gone from society. Abnormal people will die of natural causes. The rest all comes down to societal development, which is anybody's guess.

 

[Leto Atrides]

Assumptions is what you call it I guess.

After awhile I get tired of talking to people who don't make it a point to remember their history so they can learn from the mistakes in the past.

When I say mistakes in the past I'm not hinting that all this cell research was tried before. Just the morality part of human life and what I said about Euthanasia.

I truly hope it doesn't come down to that...not while I'm still alive at least. If it doesn't then I'll agree with you that the research and testing paid off...but looking at human nature throughout the past I don't think that's going to happen.

It's not even assumption though, its baseless conjecture. There is no precedent for this at all. Human worth is as high or higher than it ever was. If anything the precedent is for people freaking out over every possible new development. Socialism, capitalism, industrialization, urbanization, all these things were supposed to greatly devalue indiviual humanity and society absorbed them and adapted just fine.

It's possible that this could be the thing that sentiment was finally true of but there's no particular reason to think so. It's not like this is something that's being done really fast in secret to be released on an unprepared world, it will take decades in full view of the public. Any advances will in all likelihood become a part of the order of the world, same as anything else.

 

[Figs]

It's not even assumption though, its baseless conjecture. There is no precedent for this at all. Human worth is as high or higher than it ever was. If anything the precedent is for people freaking out over every possible new development. Socialism, capitalism, industrialization, urbanization, all these things were supposed to greatly devalue indiviual humanity and society absorbed them and adapted just fine.

It's possible that this could be the thing that sentiment was finally true of but there's no particular reason to think so. It's not like this is something that's being done really fast in secret to be released on an unprepared world, it will take decades in full view of the public. Any advances will in all likelihood become a part of the order of the world, same as anything else.

I don't agree with the whole idea that human worth is as high or higher than it ever was before. Not with the last 10-20 years or so where more people are pushing abortion.

As for what's in bold, that's what I said in my original post. That they like to start things off slowly. They didn't just keep it secret and then all of a sudden bust out with "Look we cloned our first perfectly fine human being".

Like I said before, maybe I might warm up to it over time. As for now I just don't have that positive outlook on our society or mankind for that matter.

While there are the people who believe we can and will learn from the mistakes of the past, I'm more of the believer that mankind is destined to repeat the same mistakes over and over again.

I know it's a very pessimistic outlook...it's just mankinds history hasn't shown me otherwise.

 

[FaT_tONle]

Just so you know... Abortion probably killed the crime wave... sometimes change can be a good thing...

 

[Figs]

It's good to be able to talk about things like this were people are either on one side of the fence or the other without rude remarks and making fun of someone else's opinion.

Just so you know... Abortion probably killed the crime wave... sometimes change can be a good thing...

Good point. That's why topics like these piss me off sometimes. It causes inner termoil since I have a hard time picking a side. For the most part I'm pro life but at the same time I don't neccessarily think it's bad if a woman gets an abortion due to rape.

 

[The Geek Vault]

... why cows? I mean I see why no reptiles (their brain patterns show that they have this evil nature or something) but why cows?

 

[Leto Atrides]

I don't agree with the whole idea that human worth is as high or higher than it ever was before. Not with the last 10-20 years or so where more people are pushing abortion.

As for what's in bold, that's what I said in my original post. That they like to start things off slowly. They didn't just keep it secret and then all of a sudden bust out with "Look we cloned our first perfectly fine human being".

Like I said before, maybe I might warm up to it over time. As for now I just don't have that positive outlook on our society or mankind for that matter.

While there are the people who believe we can and will learn from the mistakes of the past, I'm more of the believer that mankind is destined to repeat the same mistakes over and over again.

I know it's a very pessimistic outlook...it's just mankinds history hasn't shown me otherwise.

What I mean is, I don't see any mistakes in the past that we should be learning from on this topic. It's not like there was similar advancement that precipitated the kind of change you're talking about. Abortions for example, have been going on for years, the Catholic Church made getting one grounds for excommunication in like 1400, and it was going on before that. It's not at all a new development causing human worth to lower, (assuming you don't believe in them) its frequency can only be used as evidence for that lowered worth.

I know what you are talking about in general, there are plenty of lessons from the past that are disregarded, I just don't see any here.

And no one is slowly letting the technology trickle out any more than someone is busting it out all at once. They don't like going slow, they're going as fast as they can.

 

[raybia]

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,23476268-38200,00.html?from=public_rss#

The other white meat!

 

[FaT_tONle]

What I mean is, I don't see any mistakes in the past that we should be learning from on this topic. It's not like there was similar advancement that precipitated the kind of change you're talking about. Abortions for example, have been going on for years, the Catholic Church made getting one grounds for excommunication in like 1400, and it was going on before that. It's not at all a new development causing human worth to lower, (assuming you don't believe in them) its frequency can only be used as evidence for that lowered worth.

I know what you are talking about in general, there are plenty of lessons from the past that are disregarded, I just don't see any here.

And no one is slowly letting the technology trickle out any more than someone is busting it out all at once. They don't like going slow, they're going as fast as they can.

In fact this stuff only picked up emmensly like 10-15 years ago really. It's really the golden age for Molec. Bio/genetics. Most of the labs in my school work with simple organisms, mutating genes and what not, seeing what happens... a lot of the proteins these genes code for are homologs of proteins in our bodies. Finding the right mutations in a nematode worm may hold the answers in us. If you think about it that way... all this "cell sh:t" isn't that "disgusting" anymore like someone put it... but I am glad those choice of words were used or else I wouldn't have entered this debate... I am am safe to say everyone (myself included) learned something from this talk.