Anyone else ticked that all their favourite Marvel characters are getting replaced?

[raimar]

There is always something lost in this type of blind rush to "do good" by comic book organizations. The prime example for me is Thor. As a boy I grew up taller, stronger, and faster than almost anyone around me, and I strongly identified with Thor -- who quickly became my favourite superhero -- because he was always "holding back" and only using his power when it was justified. My Dad and I both enjoyed those stories and would talk about them a lot, without ever realizing just what it was that drew us to them. Yet modern day versions of those stories are now lost, and I don't see anything similar out there for boys to look up to, which is truly unfortunate. Femthor isn't anything like the character I once knew, and is all about "I've got the power, now everyone who kept me down will pay", which overlaps with a whole bunch of other female superheroes/protagonists out there, adding literally nothing, and only taking away.

Still, I know that there are many who will just ignore or attempt to ridicule my experiences and arguments, and will continually argue that nothing is lost, just because -- essentially -- they can't accept that other people are different than them. That's why this virtue signalling by companies is becoming recognized more and more as a faux-diversity that at its core actually despises otherness and differences. You can see it immediately in the way its most ardent defenders use arguments that are intentionally hurtful and derogatory, like "go and commiserate with your dudebros" and "male tears, amirite?". It's truly disgraceful the way this type of behaviour is defended and/or justified, and I'm not surprised that pushback is starting to happen against it in threads and discussions like this, and -- most importantly -- with people's wallets too.

Im the oposite phisically, yet had some "bodyguards" pals who thought just like you.

I must say, your post is the best iv'e read in a while. Saint should read it well, as he/she does not understand this at all. Very well said, Many

 

[raimar]

@ Rory Tate

It is hard indeed to write it better, i do agree with you on this. I guess we will come down as the era of quotas and self social delussion! It will come to pass, i hope.

 

[raimar]

"There’s an overwhelming attitude in these communities that they are being besieged by women and minorities, and that the culture, having spent so long catering to the needs of straight, white men, is being slowly stolen from them."

god forbid.

Women and minorities need our help, obviously. I'm from a minority, Puerto Rico, i know! (A powerfull machoman i am!).

 

[Saint]

Hey, Saint:

This is it.

And it's ********, not creativity. What's next, some quota, a Thor alterego where he becomes a muslim on a wheelchair who can not walk because he was trhown from some building by terrorists for being gay? I am all for new characters, not replacing the established for the sake of quotas!

Got it: I'll tell Jason Aaron you are the official arbiter of what is or is not "creativity", and that his art will now be required to meet your arbitrary, made up standards.

 

[Mad Ones]

Women and minorities need our help, obviously. I'm from a minority, Puerto Rico, i know! (A powerfull machoman i am!).

What does this post even mean.

So much insecure entitlement in this thread.

 

[raimar]

What does this post even mean.

So much insecure entitlement in this thread.

It use to be called: Irony!

Yep, entitled! Me.

 

[raimar]

Got it: I'll tell Jason Aaron you are the official arbiter of what is or is not "creativity", and that his art will now be required to meet your arbitrary, made up standards.

Ohh, did i hurt your feelings? Sorry! And to think that i had still not gone to work on my trusty old white van to exert my male privilege, you know, drilling, carrying stuff, breathing dust,etc. I would have been so much rougher! Sorry, really.

 

[raimar]

@saint:

do give the man my info? I will give him a of piece of my banal, incongruent, frustrated mind, while you applaud, and admire him. WOuld be an interesting experiment.

 

[Saint]

What does this post even mean.

At this point I'm not sure even he knows what he's talking about.

 

[raimar]

At this point I'm not sure even he knows what he's talking about.

Don't worry guys/gals/divos/divas/machos/cachaperas, Saint, etc., from now on, i will be asking for your advise and all mighty knowledge on all matters pertaining comic books and how they relate to political correctness, diversity, gender, feminism etc. My apologies, asking for actual change instead of Faux-Diversity and shoved up Y... A.. feminist agendas is insulting and unprecedented.

 

[CaptainWagner]

Been away for a while and now I'm trying to understand what the heck is going on in here...

 

[Havok83]

Don't worry. Most of us are too

 

[raimar]

My apologies for the rant, it does look bad. Simply attempted to mock the Faux-Diversity shoved by Disney and how,IMHO, some poeple simply reject that notion from the get go because it seems to be some sort of Zeitgeist thing. Latinos, women, blacks do not need or wan't Faux Diversity, we want diversity. I don't want to see established white male characters being taken over by the Diversity Squad because someone does not have the balls to actually create a new character and simply try to get him into these wonderfull universes on it's own merits. SOme of the poeple here with whom i seem to have picked a fight with, (i did not), go along with this and it is sad thing. It it is presumptuos and hyopocritical. Again, apologies, i do not know Saint or Mad Ones, they are probably really nice poeple. Let us all accept the possibility of being wrong and it will be easier to see other points of view. Cheers!

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I'm curious: if someone like Ms. Marvel or Jane Foster is just stealing a legacy for faux-diversity, what would you consider genuine diversity? Someone like Mosaic? A totally new character who happens to be black? Because I have to say, I don't see that character lasting long, unfortunately.

 

[raimar]

I'm curious: if someone like Ms. Marvel or Jane Foster is just stealing a legacy for faux-diversity, what would you consider genuine diversity? Someone like Mosaic? A totally new character who happens to be black? Because I have to say, I don't see that character lasting long, unfortunately.

I have no idea, certainly Mosaic is new, is he not? I am not reading comics for the reasons stated above. Weather hi is black or yellow is irrelevant. Agendas and quotas are the end. Can anyone argue that the changes are inspired or creative if they have to happen by mandate of the higher office? But now, even though new characters would be welcome, it would probably be marred with political issues. It still sounds better than recycling the established.

 

[KevanG]

So I guess I'm the only one that's sort of okay with it? Besides it happening five times to the same guy in the last decade anyway.

 

[CaptainWagner]

I have no idea, certainly Mosaic is new, is he not? I am not reading comics for the reasons stated above. Weather hi is black or yellow is irrelevant. Agendas and quotas are the end. Can anyone argue that the changes are inspired or creative if they have to happen by mandate of the higher office? But now, even though new characters would be welcome, it would probably be marred with political issues. It still sounds better than recycling the established.

It's crazy to say that an idea can't be creative just because it was based on a push for diversity. The only person who CAN'T objectively argue the creativity of these titles is YOU, because YOU are the one who hasn't actually read any of the books.

And why do you keep acting like superheroes aren't allowed to be political? Do you also hate Green Arrow?

 

[Havok83]

I have no idea, certainly Mosaic is new, is he not? I am not reading comics for the reasons stated above. Weather hi is black or yellow is irrelevant. Agendas and quotas are the end. Can anyone argue that the changes are inspired or creative if they have to happen by mandate of the higher office? But now, even though new characters would be welcome, it would probably be marred with political issues. It still sounds better than recycling the established.

it almost feels like you are contradicting yourself bc he brings up an example of a new black character not tied to a legacy and you all but admit that it doesnt matter anyway. How do you know Mosaic was editorial mandated and not some original creation that Thorne wants to put out there? Or pretty much any other minority character? I dont even know what you arguing now bc if there is nothing that Marvel can do (bc there's some other agenda), then what the point?

 

[Mad Ones]

Comic books have always been political. The difference I guess is that some people like reading diverse characters less than seeing white men punch Hitler.

 

[RoryTate]

I'm curious: if someone like Ms. Marvel or Jane Foster is just stealing a legacy for faux-diversity, what would you consider genuine diversity?

The first thing I would do is to focus less on superficial diversity (skin colour/ethnicity, gender, etc), and find topics that were more universal. For example, if I were writing something and wanted to explore ideas that were unfamiliar to me, I might create a positive, relatable pro-life character (even though my politics are strongly pro-choice). It might be fun to explore religion and faith in such a new manner, since it is not a part of my daily experience (nor is it one that many comic book readers are familiar with...the average skewing strongly secular).

When it's a superficial faux-diversity, however, it quickly polarizes the story. It may seem like I'm harping on it too much, but I go back to femThor because it's the one I'm most familiar with. When Thor battled the Midgard Serpent, the Destroyer, Hela, Surtur, Kurse, Ego the Living Planet, Galactus, or the Celestials, it may seem strange to say it, but at the end he didn't throw any of them in jail. They were simply defeated. So when he battled the Wrecking Crew and shouted "Thou art no match for a true Warrior of Asgard!" and similar, it was fine that they were criminals and went to jail at the conclusion of the story.

However, with femThor, the writers of the comic have her immediately note the Wrecking Crew's gender, have each of them ridicule each other in gendered ways, and so the fight takes on a completely different meaning. Maybe they just wanted to make her unlikeable, or hated in some way, to fuel the media outrage and get publicity at the time, but that's no excuse for her throwing around insults. The stories told end up reading like bad fanfic, honestly. Thor isn't taking down the bad guys. A female Thor is now putting all the bad men in prison. I start to wonder why the phrase "bad girls" sounds forced and clumsy...why it is never used?.... <sigh> When did I start wasting my time with bean counting like this?....

When the hero's gender becomes important suddenly, so does the gender of each of the villains. Everyone's gender in the story becomes important, and is seen as a supposedly deep, political statement.

Replace the above with race, sexuality, or any of the other examples of divisive identity politics, where emotionalism and tribalism are the only arguments needed, and it should be no surprise that a story based on this beginning only ends up hardening people's default positions on the topics, and nothing else.

I would argue that a universal theme of "everyone is different, but we all share more in common with each other than not" simply cannot be reached from a starting point of "this difference is essential to who I am, and cannot be understood by anyone else" or similar ideas. That, in a nutshell, is why so many are reacting negatively to such stories when they read them.

 

[raimar]

It's crazy to say that an idea can't be creative just because it was based on a push for diversity. The only person who CAN'T objectively argue the creativity of these titles is YOU, because YOU are the one who hasn't actually read any of the books.

And why do you keep acting like superheroes aren't allowed to be political? Do you also hate Green Arrow?

I did not bring this character up, or google it to claim knowledge i don't have. I am not talking about Mosaic. Everuthing said is regarding the title of the thread! Maybe it is a great character, give it time and perseverance, by all means. Or just magically turn him into the Black Widow!

 

[raimar]

it almost feels like you are contradicting yourself bc he brings up an example of a new black character not tied to a legacy and you all but admit that it doesnt matter anyway. How do you know Mosaic was editorial mandated and not some original creation that Thorne wants to put out there? Or pretty much any other minority character? I dont even know what you arguing now bc if there is nothing that Marvel can do (bc there's some other agenda), then what the point?[/QUOT

Plaes read this again. I don't know about Mosaic and the color of his skin is in fact irrelevant. I did not bring this character up or! It is quite clear to me, and of course i could be wrong, that most of the character replacement are being pushed by agendas and quotas and a lot of the writing seems to reflect it, check Rory Tates' last post . And why is it that you guys get upset by this opinion? It is the point of the damned thread! DO i wish there where more latino characters? Yes, absolutely. How about using folklore or history as inspiration for them, a la Thor or Hercules.

 

[RoryTate]

As for the rest of your post... I just can't factor a sincere response to it.

Therefore your initial claim that "comics are overflowing with positive male characters" falls under the category of "That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence". I tried to give you some objective measurement criteria to start an actual discussion around this claim, and proposed a few tests that are common problems to nearly every story, yet you choose to completely ignore them and call them "arbitrary". That's the internet equivalent of plugging your ears and yelling "lalala I can't hear you!".

 

[CaptainWagner]

I did not bring this character up, or google it to claim knowledge i don't have. I am not talking about Mosaic. Everuthing said is regarding the title of the thread! Maybe it is a great character, give it time and perseverance, by all means. Or just magically turn him into the Black Widow!

You just completely ignored my point. I'm not talking about Mosaic, I'm talking about Lady Thor, Falcon Cap, etc... You know, the SUBJECT of the thread. I'm asking how you can critique the creativity of THOSE books, which you proudly declare to have never read. I also asked if you hated Green Arrow for being political.

 

[raimar]

You just completely ignored my point. I'm not talking about Mosaic, I'm talking about Lady Thor, Falcon Cap, etc... You know, the SUBJECT of the thread. I'm asking how you can critique the creativity of THOSE books, which you proudly declare to have never read. I also asked if you hated Green Arrow for being political.

Anyone else ticked that all their favourite Marvel characters are getting replaced?:

this is the title. I am not talking about Green Arrow or Mosaic. Stick to the question in question and you may understand me. I read all the way up to AvX, which is quite recent. I stopped at Thorwoman because of the things that have been remarked here, by me and many others. We don't have to like this. And there is room for opinions but it is certainly difficult to argue this is all a natural progression. Falcon Cap is very different. Jane, Riri, WOlverine? Are you serious? Imagine the creation of those female characters along side the male existing ones and then the males mentoring those females, (whom would have differing names of course). Now imagine the barrage of crap coming from all isle of the polically correct spectrum for, you know, implying that it implies the females could'nt do without, etc.,etc... You know the rest. It would be never ending. Now, instead, it is perfectly fine to just take the character over, no problem with that. You know, why build a character, engage the public and make it wanted, expected reading? I simply don't agree. Which, of course, means nothing.