Arrow Arrow Season 5 Episode 13: "Spectre of the Gun"

[Joe Von Zombie]

I applaud them for trying, I really do and I think Green Arrow and his history in the comics is a valid platform for this debate, I'm just not sure if the CW's Green Arrow is the place for it.

 

[kane9321]

Very good episode

 

[Babillygunn]

I find it interesting that I've seen a lot of people angry that politics was brought into a Green Arrow show. GREEN FREAKING ARROW!!! His whole comics identity is based on his political activism. I'd LOVE to see Ollie grow into the comics version of himself whereby he is the people's champion and a self described SJW. Ultimately that's what separates him from being Batman with a bow. So I'd say ramp up, not play down, the liberal politics in the show.

 

[wampa1]

I find it interesting that I've seen a lot of people angry that politics was brought into a Green Arrow show. GREEN FREAKING ARROW!!! His whole comics identity is based on his political activism. I'd LOVE to see Ollie grow into the comics version of himself whereby he is the people's champion and a self described SJW. Ultimately that's what separates him from being Batman with a bow. So I'd say ramp up, not play down, the liberal politics in the show.

 

[metaphysician]

Okay, here are the problems with doing a Very Special Gun Control Episode on Arrow:

1. The heroic cast consists entirely of lethal force using vigilantes, several of whom carry enough firepower to conquer a small South American country

2. The city has seen so many disasters and terrorist attacks that the idea anybody would be bothered by a fairly ordinary spree killer is ludicrous

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

I feel like The Flash would have been a better place for it. Barry, and The Flash just in general as a character, would probably have a higher moral ground to stand on to make a case.

I mean, if this was classic super Liberal Oliver Queen...maybe it's a better fit. But, they're so hesitant (might have something to do with the political leanings of the majority of viewers polled?), to have Ollie stand on that ground. I mean, they clearly went out of their way to not box him into a corner on the issue in the episode,either.

The funny thing is, no matter what they'd piss people off anyways.

 

[BlueLanternKal]

I think the episode transcended the gun control issue and became a condemnation of blind partisanship as whole.

I'm skipping the back half of Arrow, but I made sure to tune in for this one. Was it the best episode ever? No. Was it messy at times like others pointed out? Yes. But it was a timely episode about two relevant issues going on right now and I applaud Arrow and Marc Guggenhiem (yeah, I know but credit when and where it's due) for having the balls to try and say something important on the CW of all places.

I don't think it came off as preachy at all.

 

[Mask&Cape]

I enjoyed this episode.

Although I liked the message of hope at the end, I also think it wrapped up too nicely. We were never told exactly what the solution was which means the writer didn't have one, in which case it might have been better to end the episode with the situation being unresolved, but with each faction agreeing to continue to try figure it out.

I'm hoping for more episodes Oliver has to be Oliver as opposed to Green Arrow. If that makes any sense. I would have liked more episodes early on where Oliver struggles with being Mayor and Green Arrow, before recruiting the new guys. Not that I dislike any of them.

Rene told Curtis that if he'd had his gun his wife would still be alive. This wasn't how it played out in the flashback as pulling his gun is actually what got her killed. At first I thought he was lying so he wouldn't have to admit owning a gun got her killed but it became he genuinely believed it.

Also, there is something I have been wanting to ask for a while. Are Diggle and Rene both meant to be that good marksman that they can shoot and never kill?

 

[wampa1]

Also, there is something I have been wanting to ask for a while. Are Diggle and Rene both meant to be that good marksman that they can shoot and never kill?

I keep hoping for a throwaway line that says they fire rubber bullets that knock people out or something.

 

[Mask&Cape]

I keep hoping for a throwaway line that says they fire rubber bullets that knock people out or something.

I have been assuming (based on Diggle being against killing in the past and the fact that everyone gets upset about Oliver killing people) that they aren't killing people, but we shouldn't have to assume.

Bullets are flying and bad guys are lying on the ground not moving. We should occasionally see the minions are still alive or be told the guys are just that good.

 

[Slade W]

I enjoyed this episode.

Although I liked the message of hope at the end, I also think it wrapped up too nicely. We were never told exactly what the solution was which means the writer didn't have one, in which case it might have been better to end the episode with the situation being unresolved, but with each faction agreeing to continue to try figure it out.

I'm hoping for more episodes Oliver has to be Oliver as opposed to Green Arrow. If that makes any sense. I would have liked more episodes early on where Oliver struggles with being Mayor and Green Arrow, before recruiting the new guys. Not that I dislike any of them.

Rene told Curtis that if he'd had his gun his wife would still be alive. This wasn't how it played out in the flashback as pulling his gun is actually what got her killed. At first I thought he was lying so he wouldn't have to admit owning a gun got her killed but it became he genuinely believed it.

Also, there is something I have been wanting to ask for a while. Are Diggle and Rene both meant to be that good marksman that they can shoot and never kill?[/QUOTE]

Diggle said in a previous season that he uses rubber bullets. I am not sure if Rene is killing people. It is possible he is not killing them, as this is a show where characters survive things like having a sword put clean through them and getting kicked off a cliff after. It all depends on what the writers want in each situation, but they are not making it clear whether people are surviving or not. I think one of the main goals with the fight scenes is to make them look as cool and brutal as possible, rather than put much care into making it clear that they are not killing. When Oliver stopped killing in season 2, I am not sure there is any difference in where he aimed his arrows that season to where he aimed them in season 1, for example. I am not sure we will get an answer anytime soon.

 

[Mask&Cape]

Okay, here are the problems with doing a Very Special Gun Control Episode on Arrow:

1. The heroic cast consists entirely of lethal force using vigilantes, several of whom carry enough firepower to conquer a small South American country

2. The city has seen so many disasters and terrorist attacks that the idea anybody would be bothered by a fairly ordinary spree killer is ludicrous

It isn't entirely lethal force.

Laurel never killed. Neither has Curtis. I don't remember if Ragman killed the people he was hunting early on but he certainly had stopped once joining the team. And although I admit above to some confusion about whether Diggle and Wild Dog are killing people, I have been assuming we meant to to believe they are wounding. And Oliver does not shoot to kill anymore (mostly).

Also, the heroes have fought and killed bad guys. The people at city hall are innocent civilians and the very people the team try to protect.

And to be honest, there was something more terrifying about this attack because it WASN'T a super villain or a man made earthquake. It was just an ordinary guy.

 

[Slade W]

I enjoyed this episode.

Although I liked the message of hope at the end, I also think it wrapped up too nicely. We were never told exactly what the solution was which means the writer didn't have one, in which case it might have been better to end the episode with the situation being unresolved, but with each faction agreeing to continue to try figure it out.

I'm hoping for more episodes Oliver has to be Oliver as opposed to Green Arrow. If that makes any sense. I would have liked more episodes early on where Oliver struggles with being Mayor and Green Arrow, before recruiting the new guys. Not that I dislike any of them.

Rene told Curtis that if he'd had his gun his wife would still be alive. This wasn't how it played out in the flashback as pulling his gun is actually what got her killed. At first I thought he was lying so he wouldn't have to admit owning a gun got her killed but it became he genuinely believed it.

Also, there is something I have been wanting to ask for a while. Are Diggle and Rene both meant to be that good marksman that they can shoot and never kill?

Diggle said in a previous season that he uses rubber bullets. I am not sure if Rene is killing people. It is possible he is not killing them, as this is a show where characters survive things like having a sword put clean through them and getting kicked off a cliff after. It all depends on what the writers want in each situation, but they are not making it clear whether people are surviving or not. I think one of the main goals with the fight scenes is to make them look as cool and brutal as possible, rather than put much care into making it clear that they are not killing. When Oliver stopped killing in season 2, I am not sure there was any difference in where he aimed his arrows that season to where he aimed them in season 1, for example. I am not sure we will get an answer anytime soon.

 

[Mask&Cape]

Diggle said in a previous season that he uses rubber bullets. I am not sure if Rene is killing people.

That answers that part.

It is only this season that I have been questioning it so I must have known this in previous seasons and simply have forgot.

It is possible he is not killing them, as this is a show where characters survive things like having a sword put clean through them and getting kicked off a cliff after. It all depends on what the writers want in each situation, but they are not making it clear whether people are surviving or not. I think one of the main goals with the fight scenes is to make them look as cool and brutal as possible, rather than put much care into making it clear that they are not killing. When Oliver stopped killing in season 2, I am not sure there is any difference in where he aimed his arrows that season to where he aimed them in season 1, for example. I am not sure we will get an answer anytime soon.

I have no problem with the idea that the bullets can fly and no one ever dies. It is a fantasy adventure.

The fights are always good and brutal but there is no reason why they can't occasionally make it clear. They regularly bring up the issue of killing and although all the team seem against it the fight scenes do seem to suggest killing is what they do.

For now I'll stick with the assumption that no one is actually dying unless it is actually stated on screen. Everyone else is just going to sleep like the stormtroopers do.

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

I don't think they ever quite figured out the tactics for Dig. Even when Ollie was on his no-kill rule, Dig was shooting people up.

Now, his gun looks specialized. Like a modified gun, that I guess might have been jury-rigged to fire non-lethal ammo. But, that's only speculation because they've never said or covered that idea with the writing.

There's some weird things that are brought up by this episode, that I hadn't even considered. Like if Curtis feels this strongly about guns, why hasn't said anything about it before, considering that Rene's main form of combat are two handguns? And if he feels that strongly about guns, where is he on the kill option? Considering Rene, Ollie, and now Dig, are dropping bodies like Frank Castle. Well, okay...not like Frank. I don't think anyone can keep up with him.

I don't know, I'm starting to wonder why there isn't more friction and debate in the team on tactics considering how strongly they all seem to feel about this issue. They all freaked out about Year One Arrow's motivation, labeling him a serial killer. But, if he's still dropping bodies, and they're there assisting him, then they're just blatant hypocrites. Though, that felt more like the writers trying to reconcile Year One with Ollie's overall superhero journey.

 

[Slade W]

I don't think they ever quite figured out the tactics for Dig. Even when Ollie was on his no-kill rule, Dig was shooting people up.

Now, his gun looks specialized. Like a modified gun, that I guess might have been jury-rigged to fire non-lethal ammo. But, that's only speculation because they've never said or covered that idea with the writing.

There's some weird things that are brought up by this episode, that I hadn't even considered. Like if Curtis feels this strongly about guns, why hasn't said anything about it before, considering that Rene's main form of combat are two handguns? And if he feels that strongly about guns, where is he on the kill option? Considering Rene, Ollie, and now Dig, are dropping bodies like Frank Castle. Well, okay...not like Frank. I don't think anyone can keep up with him.

I don't know, I'm starting to wonder why there isn't more friction and debate in the team on tactics considering how strongly they all seem to feel about this issue. They all freaked out about Year One Arrow's motivation, labeling him a serial killer. But, if he's still dropping bodies, and they're there assisting him, then they're just blatant hypocrites. Though, that felt more like the writers trying to reconcile Year One with Ollie's overall superhero journey.

Diggle said in an earlier season that he uses rubber bullets.

 

[Mask&Cape]

I don't think they ever quite figured out the tactics for Dig. Even when Ollie was on his no-kill rule, Dig was shooting people up.

Now, his gun looks specialized. Like a modified gun, that I guess might have been jury-rigged to fire non-lethal ammo. But, that's only speculation because they've never said or covered that idea with the writing.

There's some weird things that are brought up by this episode, that I hadn't even considered. Like if Curtis feels this strongly about guns, why hasn't said anything about it before, considering that Rene's main form of combat are two handguns? And if he feels that strongly about guns, where is he on the kill option? Considering Rene, Ollie, and now Dig, are dropping bodies like Frank Castle. Well, okay...not like Frank. I don't think anyone can keep up with him.

I don't know, I'm starting to wonder why there isn't more friction and debate in the team on tactics considering how strongly they all seem to feel about this issue. They all freaked out about Year One Arrow's motivation, labeling him a serial killer. But, if he's still dropping bodies, and they're there assisting him, then they're just blatant hypocrites. Though, that felt more like the writers trying to reconcile Year One with Ollie's overall superhero journey.

Diggle's objections to Oliver's early tactics weren't that he was against the killing, but rather that Oliver killed as a first resort and on occasions were it was completely unescessary. Diggle shot people up when the situation required it, and although I couldn't swear to it, I'm fairly certain that on several of this targets were shown to be still moving afterward. The modified gun and the past reference to rubber bullets remove Diggle's actions as a problem.

The problem is really just Wild Dog.When Oliver went hunting for Dinah he was eager to stop her killing spree and Rene questioned her suitability for the team because she is a killer and yet he shot a load of people in the showdown at the end. I'm assuming he is not killing and I'm of the opinion that a movie and TV show doesn't need to explain everything and the audience should be able to fill in the blanks (if for no reason than not to be getting bogged done in exposition) but the issue of killing is a such recurring theme, and the topic of this particular episode, do bring up the need for the writers to make it clear once again Diggle is using rubber bullets/modified gun and to address whether Wild Dog is doing likewise.

Curtis has spoken before that he views Wild Dog as being unstable. The scene was played for humour, but does anyone else think that Curtis has seen something in him that even Oliver has missed. In he final moments of the flashback, as Rene watched Green Arrow kill Darhk on TV, it seemed to me that something in Rene snapped and he had look of madness in his eyes.