Batman "vs." thread

[GlasgowBat]

exactly, i was just about to bring up public enemies.

batman knocks her out, becuase of what she did to catwoman during "hush".

 

[Two-Face=Badass]

Batman's already beaten shiva in superman/batman...though she was mind controlled, she was still performing at top skill, and was still beaten by Batman

and what issues have cassie beating bruce, by the way?

Yeah but that is void, because it was written by Loeb, who also had her being smacked out behind by a chair in Hush, and also wrote Ultimates 3.
It's be like me basing character moments of Lieberman's awful Gotham Knights run.

I don't recall the exact issue Cassie beatup Bruce, but I'm pretty sure it was the Murderer/Fugitive arc where he was at the height of his Batd!ckery.

That's pretty much my problem with Batman, nothing beats him anymore. I far prefer it when it was possible to get the drop on him, when he was still an amazing fighter and first class detective, but he wasn't perfect. Too many fanboys are hypocrites to me these days, they can't accept anything but realism in their Batman but man oh man they also cannot accept that their are indeed people who can beat Batman, meta or no. It's what makes it interesting.

Bty the by, that last comment is not direcred at you or anyone in particular, it's just what i find with a lot of fans these days. Except the Goddamn Batman, he's all powerful.

 

[CaptainClown]

batman is his own worst enemy....well he should be

 

[The Batman]

Yeah but that is void, because it was written by Loeb, who also had her being smacked out behind by a chair in Hush, and also wrote Ultimates 3.
It's be like me basing character moments of Lieberman's awful Gotham Knights run.

I don't recall the exact issue Cassie beatup Bruce, but I'm pretty sure it was the Murderer/Fugitive arc where he was at the height of his Batd!ckery.

That's pretty much my problem with Batman, nothing beats him anymore. I far prefer it when it was possible to get the drop on him, when he was still an amazing fighter and first class detective, but he wasn't perfect. Too many fanboys are hypocrites to me these days, they can't accept anything but realism in their Batman but man oh man they also cannot accept that their are indeed people who can beat Batman, meta or no. It's what makes it interesting.

Bty the by, that last comment is not direcred at you or anyone in particular, it's just what i find with a lot of fans these days. Except the Goddamn Batman, he's all powerful.

So what if loeb wrote it? Its canon, plain and simple. Bronze Tiger beating Batman only happened because O Neil did the old "Let's have new character look badass at an old ones expense" type storytelling that happens all the time now, not to mention it was a nice contrivance for why Batman failed to save kathy kane. However, i still acknowledge it as canon.

Fanboys are hypocrits...and that especially includes you. in fact, your post highlights it. You refuse to believe something that is proven canon just because of your own biases. The fact is that Batman has been shown to have defeated shiva in hand to hand combat, and its a good thing bronze tiger has fallen into relative obscurity,because i doubt writers would have him beat batman today.

 

[Two-Face=Badass]

So what if loeb wrote it? Its canon, plain and simple. Bronze Tiger beating Batman only happened because O Neil did the old "Let's have new character look badass at an old ones expense" type storytelling that happens all the time now, not to mention it was a nice contrivance for why Batman failed to save kathy kane. However, i still acknowledge it as canon.

Fanboys are hypocrits...and that especially includes you. in fact, your post highlights it. You refuse to believe something that is proven canon just because of your own biases. The fact is that Batman has been shown to have defeated shiva in hand to hand combat, and its a good thing bronze tiger has fallen into relative obscurity,because i doubt writers would have him beat batman today.

Superman/Batman's canonoicity is dubious at best, most arcs, especially Loeb's, have a rather annoying tendencity to contradict other storylines. But that is beside my point.
While I admit Bronze Tiger beating Batman was unearned at the time, since then his appearances have justified his superiority over Batman in terms of martial arts.

However, you seem to have missed my point, if anything you've only helped it. These examples you list are pretty much all cases of a writer basically wanting to prove how badass Batman is by having him beat a greater fighter. My original point was that it is a lousy move. Do I accept it as canon? I have no choice really, but that doesn't justify its stupidity. Heaven forbid someone be better than Batman in atleast one area! There's only so much Batgod one can swallow before it becomes ridiculous, and currently it is ridiculous. It tarnishes Batman as a character who must struggle each night and it tarnishes his opponents by reducing their abilities.

That's my point, no hypocrisy. Am I still a hypocrite? Of course, we all are in some way, but I don't see anything hypocritical about thinking that the tired game of "Batman pwns all!" is an awful writer's trick that very rarely ever has a good effect on story or characterisation.

 

[The Batman]

Superman/Batman's canonoicity is dubious at best, most arcs, especially Loeb's, have a rather annoying tendencity to contradict other storylines. But that is beside my point.
While I admit Bronze Tiger beating Batman was unearned at the time, since then his appearances have justified his superiority over Batman in terms of martial arts.

However, you seem to have missed my point, if anything you've only helped it. These examples you list are pretty much all cases of a writer basically wanting to prove how badass Batman is by having him beat a greater fighter. My original point was that it is a lousy move. Do I accept it as canon? I have no choice really, but that doesn't justify its stupidity. Heaven forbid someone be better than Batman in atleast one area! There's only so much Batgod one can swallow before it becomes ridiculous, and currently it is ridiculous. It tarnishes Batman as a character who must struggle each night and it tarnishes his opponents by reducing their abilities.

That's my point, no hypocrisy. Am I still a hypocrite? Of course, we all are in some way, but I don't see anything hypocritical about thinking that the tired game of "Batman pwns all!" is an awful writer's trick that very rarely ever has a good effect on story or characterisation.

You don't like awful writer's tricks in support of batman, yet you support awful writer's tricks when it works against him. there's the hypocracy.

And you question the canon of superman/batman, yet you'll accept bronze tiger beating batman? Public Enemies is apart of DC canon....its the story that made lex a villain again, and helped start the road to infinite crisis...its canon. All of it. Yet...the story where bronze tiger beats batman is a pre crisis story featuring the original kathy kane, who no longer exists in modern continuty....Again, i doubt bronze tiger beats batman in CURRENT continuity, which has him beat Shiva in a story that's VERY important to the modern DCU...

 

[GlasgowBat]

i don't want an unbeatable batman. however, i do not think that having only a few non-metas being capable of beating him in un-armed combat does that.

he struggles each night not because he gets into scrapes with people that excell or match him in martial arts, but because he fighting an unbeatable enemy. he's fighting hopelessness. it's more interesting when the struggle is of resolve or of a philosophical nature. that's why bane and croc aren't the greatest batman villains.

his obsesive commitment to his combat training makes him infinitely more interesting. he trains himself to the peak of human ability. that's one of the key aspects of the character, in the same was as his detective expertise.


there are some non-meta characters that are more accomplished in martial arts than bruce. but not many. and that's the way it should be.