Bought/Thought January 4, 2012.1

[Dread]

As an addition, as well as to continue a conversation from last week's B/T topic, I did flip through this week's AVENGERS ANNUAL. Now, a "flip-through" is not the same as a read so I will try to keep it brief. I likely will fail.

I had flipped through the NEW AVENGERS annual I think so the conclusion of this story and where it was taking Wonder Man didn't stun me too much. However, even on a flip-through, I saw enough that irritated me that handing over $4 to read the rest would not be a fathomable suggestion. I simply do not understand why Bendis seems to be convinced that the best thing to do with Wanda Maximoff is to make her a crazy woman. Ages ago when he was just on NEW AVENGERS and I was still reading WIZARD or somewhere else, Bendis claimed it stems from a story in WEST COAST AVENGERS where Wanda goes batty again and joins Magneto, and he felt that story ended too soon or whatnot. I suppose for the man who made it a fad to stretch every story at least 6 issues, if not 7-8 across the medium, he's right. The problem is this train of thought removes a heroine who has long been a mainstay of the Avengers franchise. Her resurrection of Wonder Man to save herself from Morgan LeFey during the start of the Busiek/Perez AVENGERS run has often been heralded as a great AVENGERS moment, timeless and even romantic given what came later. Well, in this annual, Bendis reduces that to a dark summoning spell cast by a crazy woman. I think I understand why Bendis is at home in crime noir or solo vigilante stories. It is because he seems to have a thing for taking fantastic or extraordinary things, and people, and bringing them down to something seedy, trashy, grim, violent, or disturbed. After all, he couldn't write Dr. Doom unless he did so by having Doom insult a woman's figure or be in the middle of sex with Morgan LeFey. BKV in THE OATH had Dr. Strange and Night-Nurse begin a rather charming romance as a sort of mystical version of Holmes & Watson - the eccentric genius expert and his down-to-earth practical partner. What does Bendis do? Take it between the sheets with some crude humor thrown in. He's also the guy - and this bit I never forget - who devoted an entire page in ULTIMATE SPIDER-MAN to using Reed Richards to tell a urine joke. Clearly, he does not like fantastic elements or people in comics and sees them only as a means to an end, and usually that end is ugly or crude because that's "real".

Lord knows I have complained up and down about Heinberg's AVENGERS: THE CHILDREN'S CRUSADE, so it isn't as if Bendis is the only writer who I am hard on. But if there is one thing that I do like that Heinberg is doing there, he's trying to rehabilitate Wanda as a character. He is trying to attach a lot of her worst moments to Dr. Doom. He's doing a crude job of making the X-Men and Avengers seem like violent thugs to better portray Wanda as an innocent victim, but at least there's that. Despite all of Heinberg's faults, I at least get the idea that he does like Scarlet Witch and wants to see her a serious Avenger again. At the very least, he sees her as a tragic figure and not a mad crazy woman.

This, naturally, avoids the topic of Bendis making Wonder Man into a far more twisted character than Grim Reaper, his own brother. In fact, I could see leading a team of "revengers" for supposed crimes which really are just hypocritical lunacy to justify violence being a PERFECT plot for Grim Reaper. Yet the only time Bendis uses villains, it's either Norman Osborn or the Hood, and he both over uses them and makes them 400% more efficient and powerful than they should be. He had Hood go after the Infinity Gauntlet, for heaven's sakes. BKV made him to basically be a "hood", a morally ambiguous lower level villain like Shocker, and instead Bendis has made him a megalomaniac who even Wizard works for. Wonder Man has been a character that wonky things happened to, but at his heart is redemption. He was initially consumed by revenge which was why he agreed to be empowered by Zemo and work to betray the team, but ended up dying to save them. Ever since he's sought to atone for that and be a worthy hero, and he has many times over. Well, now he's just some summoned creature out for blood.

I said elsewhere, and I may as well repeat it, how it's funny how Bendis seems to save the worst for WCA characters. He's intent on destroying Scarlet Witch, one of Marvel's few longtime heroines. He made Tigra a random victim. He killed off Vision for six years, and Hawkeye for a few. And now he's set about making Wonder Man a worse villain than any actual villain he has actually written. I'd say he didn't help Pym much, but at least the "Pym" he wrote was a Skrull. I can't speak on how well or poorly he's handled Mockingbird, but I do find the concept of a Skrull being so good at replacing her that "she" fooled even Mephisto who had the "dead" Mockingbird present in the underworld a few times laughable.

This also doesn't get into his usual mangling of lower tier characters. Seriously, what did D-Man or Devil-Slayer do? The fact that Capt. Ultra and Atlas are willing to form an Avengers hit squad out of anger about not being made members shows why they weren't made members. But even many of these little characters are off. I suppose Anti-Venom is fine given that lunatics always can alter their motives. But, didn't he want to be taken seriously as a vigilante crime fighter? How does battering the Avengers do that? As a rite of passage? Razorback saw it that way once.

However...I can say that the best thing of this is that it can create some opportunities for the right writers. Editorial will support these shocking character shifts - anything Bendis writes is INSTA-CANON, that every editor down the line ensures is consistent. The only writer who undid something Bendis did specifically was Peter Milligan, who repowered Iceman 1 issue after Bendis personally depowered him at the end of HOUSE OF M. You'll notice he doesn't write high profile things (like UNCANNY X-MEN) for Marvel since. It's probably a coincidence, but it's an amazing one. BUT, then we have Christos Gage, who took Tigra after the NEW AVENGERS victim bit and really utilized that as a catalyst to reform her and make her more than furry fetish fuel, but an experienced and even deep heroine. Tigra's a stronger character than she's ever been thanks to Gage's care on A:TI and AA. Every character big or small has someone that likes them, and sometimes that can be writers in the Marvel bullpen themselves who may use this story as a reason to rehabilitate them. After all, it may be easier to justify a Devil-Slayer story in an anthology somewhere after this, than it would have been before.

Bendis finally got around to using Count Nefaria as a super powered mobster, and where does he use him? MOON KNIGHT, where the character is crazier than Two-Face. His final issue of Avengers material this year can't come soon enough. Maybe then the Avengers can get more writers who don't seem to consistently hate the tropes of the franchise as much as Bendis does. It's never been where he's been at his best, and the fact that Marvel has kept them there so long despite that is telling.

Yeah, I suck at being brief.

Actually the JLI roster consists of seven members who are not Americans. As a matter in fact, I would say that the one flaw with the current JLI roster is that it is not American at all. The two members of the team that do come from the United States represent the interests of other organizations, not the United States while the rest of the team represents the respective regions that they come from.

It's why I think that Captain Atom is a much needed addition to the roster to represent the United States.

Batman hails from the U.S. and as a rich white guy, is a stereotypical American superhero.

I actually forgot that DC now claims Booster Gold is Canadian - albeit a future Canadian. Still, Canada is technically part of North America. Guy Gardner hails from the U.S., he's simply part of an intergalactic space cop squad. Has it been explained why Earth needs 4 Green Lanterns in the NEW 52 continuity when every other planet in the universe seems to only have one? I still find it bemusing that earth has 4 of them and not one is or has ever been a woman, considering they consist of half the planet's population. The Guardians must think earth women don't have willpower.

An elseworlds story where Lois Lane got a ring might be interesting. But now I'm just brainstorming.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Batman hails from the U.S. and as a rich white guy, is a stereotypical American superhero.

Batman represents the interests of Justice League in the JLI, not the United States. Andre Briggs suggested Batman to be a member to the Security Council to establish a connection between the Justice League and the JLI, a sentiment that Batman agreed with. His membership has nothing to do with him being an American.

Guy Gardner hails from the U.S., he's simply part of an intergalactic space cop squad.

Guy Gardner represents the Green Lantern Corps, again, not the United States. He was recommended to be a member by Andre again due to creating a tie with the Green Lantern Corps the way the actual Justice League does. Again, unlike the others, his nationality has no part in the reason why he's a member.

Both the Justice League and Green Lantern Corps are above things like national identity. Canada, the United Kingdom, Europe/Norway, Brazil, Russia, China, and Zambesi/Africa have representatives to establish a multinational reflection of the world, also take into account that the United Kingdom, China, and Russia hold permanent seats in the Security Council (hence why Godiva was recommended).

The United States should have a representative on account of a huge role the United States plays in the geopolitical world from being one of the largest countries in the world in size and population, being the largest military power in the world, being the largest economy in the world, is also a permanent member on the Security Council, and has the largest superhero population in the DCnU. Having Captain Atom, a character with long standing ties with the JLI, would be the perfect member to actually represent the United States.

The JLI should also have an Arab member. Iron Butterfly would be a perfect addition, she's a Palestinian woman who was a part of the Milestone Universe. A great way to bring more ethnic and gender diversity to a team that is supposed to be about international diversity while bringing more exposure to the Milestone characters beyond just Static in Static Shock and the Shadow Cabinet in Stormwatch.

Has it been explained why Earth needs 4 Green Lanterns in the NEW 52 continuity when every other planet in the universe seems to only have one? I still find it bemusing that earth has 4 of them and not one is or has ever been a woman, considering they consist of half the planet's population. The Guardians must think earth women don't have willpower.

The Guardians don't like the fact that the rings have chosen Earth humans to bear them.

 

[Dread]

Batman represents the interests of Justice League in the JLI, not the United States. Andre Briggs suggested Batman to be a member to the Security Council to establish a connection between the Justice League and the JLI, a sentiment that Batman agreed with. His membership has nothing to do with him being an American.

Guy Gardner represents the Green Lantern Corps, again, not the United States. He was recommended to be a member by Andre again due to creating a tie with the Green Lantern Corps the way the actual Justice League does. Again, unlike the others, his nationality has no part in the reason why he's a member.

Both the Justice League and Green Lantern Corps are above things like national identity. Canada, the United Kingdom, Europe/Norway, Brazil, Russia, China, and Zambesi/Africa have representatives to establish a multinational reflection of the world, also take into account that the United Kingdom, China, and Russia hold permanent seats in the Security Council (hence why Godiva was recommended).

The United States should have a representative on account of a huge role the United States plays in the geopolitical world from being one of the largest countries in the world in size and population, being the largest military power in the world, being the largest economy in the world, is also a permanent member on the Security Council, and has the largest superhero population in the DCnU. Having Captain Atom, a character with long standing ties with the JLI, would be the perfect member to actually represent the United States.

The JLI should also have an Arab member. Iron Butterfly would be a perfect addition, she's a Palestinian woman who was a part of the Milestone Universe. A great way to bring more ethnic and gender diversity to a team that is supposed to be about international diversity while bringing more exposure to the Milestone characters beyond just Static in Static Shock and the Shadow Cabinet in Stormwatch.

The Guardians don't like the fact that the rings have chosen Earth humans to bear them.

Then it is amusing that the rings have chosen 4 earth humans to bear them, more than any other planet that I'm aware of. Especially since Hal Jordan is often a cocky jerk and Guy Gardner is a jerk of his own. And Kyle Rayner and John Stewart are usually treated as "the other two" to a degree, at least since the Geoff Johns era. Which is ironic given that Stewart was the Lantern on the Justice League animated TV show, and as the first Lantern many in this generation were exposed to, is their default version. A lesson WB perhaps learned the hard way when "GREEN LANTERN" under performed.

I digress. I know you're being technical - that the two American superheroes don't actually represent the United States - but the fact of the matter is the JLI team does in fact have two American superheroes while every other nation only has one representative. It's splitting hairs to go, "Oh, Batman represents the other League team, and Guy represents the Green Lantern Corps". It's true, but it doesn't negate the fact that they're Americans. I mean, if any nation should have two heroes, it should be China based on sheer population.

This also negates the fact that people who don't know about DC news announcements may not be aware that Booster is Canadian. Besides, he's a Canadian from the future; does he thus represent the modern Canada? I mean if we're splitting hairs, let's split hairs. Part of me feels this is akin to making an international set of Avengers and feeling America is not represented because Iron Fist and Nova are members. What, it only counts if it's Captain America or U.S. Agent or Jack Flag?

I wouldn't mind Iron Butterfly coming in, to represent Palestine. It is a bit sad that you have to go into Milestone to find any DC hero who isn't white besides Black Lightening and Vixen, but to be fair, aside for Sabra, Marvel doesn't have too many heroes from that section of the world, either. That said, a cast roster that is too large becomes difficult to handle. "DnA" had a dozen members that they split up all the time. We'd have to swap members, ideally, to avoid that happening.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Then it is amusing that the rings have chosen 4 earth humans to bear them, more than any other planet that I'm aware of. Especially since Hal Jordan is often a cocky jerk and Guy Gardner is a jerk of his own. And Kyle Rayner and John Stewart are usually treated as "the other two" to a degree, at least since the Geoff Johns era. Which is ironic given that Stewart was the Lantern on the Justice League animated TV show, and as the first Lantern many in this generation were exposed to, is their default version. A lesson WB perhaps learned the hard way when "GREEN LANTERN" under performed.

Ummmm.....DC hasn't treated Kyle as "the other two" that is pushed aside. He's been given the starring role in books such as Green Lantern Corps and Green Lantern: New Guardians ever since the Sinestro Corps War.

You do have a point with John Stewart though. But that's because DC doesn't know what to do with him. Comic book writers just don't want to write him because in the end, he's the token black guy in the Green Lantern mythos. There really is little to his character other than having to fill some racial quota or have him there because Hal, Kyle, and Guy are unavailable to use. Thankfully, Tomasi is trying to correct that situation.

I digress. I know you're being technical - that the two American superheroes don't actually represent the United States - but the fact of the matter is the JLI team does in fact have two American superheroes while every other nation only has one representative. It's splitting hairs to go, "Oh, Batman represents the other League team, and Guy represents the Green Lantern Corps". It's true, but it doesn't negate the fact that they're Americans. I mean, if any nation should have two heroes, it should be China based on sheer population.

But China has an actual representative. Batman and Guy Gardner representing factions that have nothing to do with the United States. Think of it more along the lines of NATO and INTERPOL getting slots on the team alongside China, Europe, the UK, Brazil/Latin America, Africa, and Russia.

This also negates the fact that people who don't know about DC news announcements may not be aware that Booster is Canadian. Besides, he's a Canadian from the future; does he thus represent the modern Canada? I mean if we're splitting hairs, let's split hairs.

I'm pretty sure that Booster Gold set up shop in modern Canada, thus keeping in line with him being a Canadian superhero.

Part of me feels this is akin to making an international set of Avengers and feeling America is not represented because Iron Fist and Nova are members. What, it only counts if it's Captain America or U.S. Agent or Jack Flag?

Giving a nation or region representation counts if they are placed to specifically represent such areas. Fire represents Brazil and Latin America, August General in Iron represents China, Ice represents Norway and Europe, Rocket Red represents Russia, Lady Godiva represents the United Kingdom, Vixen represents Zambesi and Africa. Booster Gold represents Canada, and to a certain extent the UN is probably hoping that he would represent North America. What do these characters have in common in the Justice League International? They were specifically chosen due to their nationalities and to represent their regions and nations.

Why was Guy Gardner selected? Not because he's American or represents the United States, but because he's a Green Lantern. Why was Batman recommended? Again, not because of his nationality, but because he's a part of the Justice League and the role the Justice League plays in the DCnU's international political scene.

Unlike the other members, Batman and Guy Gardner are not obliged to the United States and its government. They have the freedom to go against American interests while the other members cannot afford the luxury to go against their governments.

Considering the massive role the United States has in the geopolitical theater, the United States should be given a proper representative to reflect the multinational cause that the JLI represents.

I wouldn't mind Iron Butterfly coming in, to represent Palestine. It is a bit sad that you have to go into Milestone to find any DC hero who isn't white besides Black Lightening and Vixen,

Cyborg (founding member of the Justice League), John Stewart (one of the two stars of Green Lantern Corps), Batwing (who has his own book), Aqualad, Mr. Terrific (who has his own book), Jason Rusch (one of the two stars of the Fury of Firestorm: the Nuclear Men), Steel, Jaime Reyes (who has his own book), Bumblebee, Crispus Allen, Renee Montoya, Manhattan Guardian, Jakeem Thunder, Shilo Norman, Dr. Light, Thunder, Lightning, Ryan Choi, August General in Iron, O.M.A.C. (who has his own book),.....do I really want to go on.

And DC has been really pushing the diversity with the New 52 with several minority characters getting new books.

That said, a cast roster that is too large becomes difficult to handle. "DnA" had a dozen members that they split up all the time. We'd have to swap members, ideally, to avoid that happening.

The Justice League has dealt with large rosters quite well before. Grant Morrison's JLA had 16 members at once, most of which were focused on a lot. The iconic Satellite Era League consistently dealt with 15 members at once.

A large roster would really benefit the JLI as well. Giving representatives to the United States, Canada, the United Kingdom, Europe, China, Russia, Latin America, the Arab League, the Justice League, and the Green Lantern Corps truly reflects the multinational and multicultural geopolitical world of the DCnU. It could also set up future conflicts over which nations should get representatives in the team and if the members chosen like Fire, Ice, and Vixen, are good choices to represent their regions or if people think that the United States has too many representatives.

 

[Dread]

Ummmm.....DC hasn't treated Kyle as "the other two" that is pushed aside. He's been given the starring role in books such as Green Lantern Corps and Green Lantern: New Guardians ever since the Sinestro Corps War.

You do have a point with John Stewart though. But that's because DC doesn't know what to do with him. Comic book writers just don't want to write him because in the end, he's the token black guy in the Green Lantern mythos. There really is little to his character other than having to fill some racial quota or have him there because Hal, Kyle, and Guy are unavailable to use. Thankfully, Tomasi is trying to correct that situation.

The impression I had about John Stewart - and this is an impression based mostly on the "JL/U" TV show and could be wrong - is that Stewart was basically the bad-ass competent Marine. Hal was the cocky test pilot who literally knew no fear. Guy was the overconfident jerk who usually asked for whatever hardships he got. And Kyle was the imaginative artist who wasn't fearless, but learned how to overcome fear. Stewart, though, was the Marine who was into completing objectives in a no-nonsense, all business way. I heard in the comics, Stewart had an inferiority complex to Jordan, but that could have changed after the TV series hit. It should be noted that a test pilot, even an Air Force soldier, is not exactly the same as a Marine.

Token or not, he's the Green Lantern who was on a TV show the longest since Hal Jordan was on "SUPERFRIENDS", which ended around 1986-1987. Stewart is thus the Green Lantern that many people now attach to the franchise, not Rayner or Jordan. Thus, whether DC wants to or not, they should handle him properly if for no other reason than marketing. I mean, the beauty of the GL franchise is that the Corps make it one where the legacy is color, species, and gender blind. Right?

But China has an actual representative. Batman and Guy Gardner representing factions that have nothing to do with the United States. Think of it more along the lines of NATO and INTERPOL getting slots on the team alongside China, Europe, the UK, Brazil/Latin America, Africa, and Russia.

But both Batman and Guy Gardner are (or are assumed to be) U.S. citizens. They are often based in the U.S. and often defend it against threats both domestic and foreign a majority of the time. Is this negated simply because they don't answer to a domestic general or politician like some of the international heroes do?

I'm pretty sure that Booster Gold set up shop in modern Canada, thus keeping in line with him being a Canadian superhero.

I honestly have no clue. Is he still operating out of that base with Rip Hunter and his sister Michelle? Is that located in Canada? I've never seen Booster align himself with the Canucks like, say, Alpha Flight did. I just assumed DC threw a bone to our northern neighbors because they ran a con up there. Just like everyone's British at a British con.

Giving a nation or region representation counts if they are placed to specifically represent such areas. Fire represents Brazil and Latin America, August General in Iron represents China, Ice represents Norway and Europe, Rocket Red represents Russia, Lady Godiva represents the United Kingdom, Vixen represents Zambesi and Africa. Booster Gold represents Canada, and to a certain extent the UN is probably hoping that he would represent North America. What do these characters have in common in the Justice League International? They were specifically chosen due to their nationalities and to represent their regions and nations.

Why was Guy Gardner selected? Not because he's American or represents the United States, but because he's a Green Lantern. Why was Batman recommended? Again, not because of his nationality, but because he's a part of the Justice League and the role the Justice League plays in the DCnU's international political scene.

Unlike the other members, Batman and Guy Gardner are not obliged to the United States and its government. They have the freedom to go against American interests while the other members cannot afford the luxury to go against their governments.

Considering the massive role the United States has in the geopolitical theater, the United States should be given a proper representative to reflect the multinational cause that the JLI represents.

As I stated earlier, Canada (as well as Mexico) is (are) technically part of North America as a continent so you could say Booster Gold represents America, if you see America as beyond simply "The United States Of America". Naturally, when most people say "Americans", they infer the U.S.A. Most people identity Mexicans as "Mexicans" or Canadians as "Canadians" even if both are also on the North American continent and could technically be called Americans too. After all, several modern states were Mexican territory until the 19th century. But now we're arguing semantics. I always assumed Booster Gold operated in the U.S. and merchandised himself there.

Nobody will argue the large role the United States plays in "geopolitical theater". They're either a bastion of hope or bullying warmongers, depending on your POV. My point is that whether Guy or Batman (or Booster) answer to a U.S. representative or not, they count as U.S. heroes. They operate there, were born there, and protect the U.S. and it's territory/interests at least 51% of the time, if not maybe 80% of the time. Hell, Bruce Wayne is pretty much a shining example of "the 1%", and his cover identity plays up to that "playboy" stereotype. One could argue Batman insisting on being on the JLI regardless of anyone else's feelings to keep an eye on things is VERY MUCH how the U.S. often acts in international dealings. Guy Gardner even acts very much like how U.S. citizens are seen by foreigners; misinformed, ignorant, and arrogant. Hey, Wheeler often acted like that on "CAPTAIN PLANET AND THE PLANETEERS". It was never Kwame or Gi who had to learn a lesson on tolerance or open mindedness.

I think the debate here is given JLI's premise, you don't see the U.S. is properly represented unless they had a hero who salutes to the President or general or diplomat and goes "sir, YES sir!" like a Captain Atom or (Commander) Steel would. I happen to disagree because both Guy Gardner and Batman are U.S. citizens, and regardless of who they answer to, the bottom line is every other nation has only one hero that hails from their territory while America has two - three if you count Booster Gold, the Future Canadian.

I also wonder how many seconds it took someone at DC to name some heroes things like "Fire" or "Ice". And that was before all the good names were taken!

Cyborg (founding member of the Justice League), John Stewart (one of the two stars of Green Lantern Corps), Batwing (who has his own book), Aqualad, Mr. Terrific (who has his own book), Jason Rusch (one of the two stars of the Fury of Firestorm: the Nuclear Men), Steel, Jaime Reyes (who has his own book), Bumblebee, Crispus Allen, Renee Montoya, Manhattan Guardian, Jakeem Thunder, Shilo Norman, Dr. Light, Thunder, Lightning, Ryan Choi, August General in Iron, O.M.A.C. (who has his own book),.....do I really want to go on.

And DC has been really pushing the diversity with the New 52 with several minority characters getting new books.

The heroic Dr. Light hasn't been seen in ages. Ditto Jakeem Thunder or Bumblee or Thunder/Lightening or a slew of those. Renee Montoya was acknowledged as existing in BATWOMAN but that's it in the New 52. Batwing is a new BATMAN INC. (or as I call it, "McBatman") character. OMAC is a person of color? I mean besides blue?

Maybe I'll clarify. DC usually has to go to Milestone for heroes of color who come from North American urban settings. At least if they want more than one or two on a team.

But, yeah, DC has been trying for diversity. Sure, they treat their heroines like rubbish, but they at least have six of them in their own books; Marvel has zero. Someone once asked, "is Voodoo a better character than Storm simply because she has her own ongoing series" online. My answer is, "No, but it's telling DC has more editorial faith in Voodoo than Marvel does in Storm, a character who has appeared in 3 films and 3 TV series across 2 decades".

The Justice League has dealt with large rosters quite well before. Grant Morrison's JLA had 16 members at once, most of which were focused on a lot. The iconic Satellite Era League consistently dealt with 15 members at once.

A large roster would really benefit the JLI as well. Giving representatives to the United States, Canada, the United Kingdom, Europe, China, Russia, Latin America, the Arab League, the Justice League, and the Green Lantern Corps truly reflects the multinational and multicultural geopolitical world of the DCnU. It could also set up future conflicts over which nations should get representatives in the team and if the members chosen like Fire, Ice, and Vixen, are good choices to represent their regions or if people think that the United States has too many representatives.

The problem I and some people had with JLI is that some of the characters do fall into stereotype. Most of the focus of these five issues has been on Booster, Batman, Guy, and to a lessor degree Lady Godiva. The rest all act to type. Vixen is the sassy black woman. Rocket Red is the Russkie who talks in pigeon English. August General in Iron is the overly efficient Asian. And I said above, even Guy and Batman act to type to a degree. While this isn't insulting or offensive, it keeps JLI from being more than it could be. While that may be fine - JLI thus far is a Top 25-35 seller, which is WAY better than Jurgens' BOOSTER GOLD sold for ages - I would like to see this book get better with time.

I mean, unlike JUSTICE LEAGUE it DOES represent more diverse heroes and lands. It DOES have more ladies on it. While this could simply be because Dan Jurgens is a bit old school as a writer - his CAPTAIN AMERICA run was almost overly patriotic - it could also be because few writers can juggle a team book with more than 7-8 characters without some being lost to the mist. Hell, I'd argue some writers can barely manage 5 characters without some shifting to background fodder. Jonathan Hickman hasn't had his FF/FANTASTIC FOUR material seem like more than MR. FANTASTIC AND THE OTHER THREE for more than 1-2 issues a year, for example. Bendis has long struggled on team books for this reason (among others), a dilemma he lacks in solo hero books. Even Greg Weisman - TV animation's Joss Whedon - has had a rough transition from a solo hero show like "SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN" to a team hero show like "YOUNG JUSTICE", where it is clear Superboy and Megan are the stars, Kid-Flash is background humor, and the rest are in the middle.

My point is that with 5 issues and the first arc in the can, Jurgens has his hands full with a cast of 8 heroes and their U.N. diplomat supporting cast. Throwing in some flag waving DC hero because Batman and Guy Gardner don't "count" as U.S. heroes will only complicate that mix. I would like to see Rocket Red, August General and some of the others shift from stereotype and get some more focus and depth with time. And that won't happen if more members keep getting added. Heck, the origins and sources of power for many of these heroes are unknown. I have no clue what empowers August General aside for his body being iron. How many people know Ice's powers are mythical? It gets harder to divide focus if more members keep getting added to divide the focus.

I also don't see the point of throwing in a jingoist character like Capt. Atom or Commander Steel, which will had a 3rd or 4th American to an "international" team and serve no purpose but to get in the stock emotionless soldier onto the team. Commander Steel in general is basically a Captain America knock-off created by one of his old writers, Gerry Conway. I suppose Captain Atom would throw in more power and I'd prefer him to Commander Steel, but only by process of elimination. I'd feel someone would have to leave to allow a new character to come in without robbing focus, and while I wouldn't miss Batman much, I know for commercial reasons he cannot leave. This is a book that seems to have it's hands full with 8 characters; adding a 9th is a bad idea. While I would be all for someone like Iron Butterfly, I simply disagree with Guy and Batman not "representing" the U.S. simply because they don't salute to a general or a flag.

 

[hippie_hunter]

The impression I had about John Stewart - and this is an impression based mostly on the "JL/U" TV show and could be wrong - is that Stewart was basically the bad-ass competent Marine. Hal was the cocky test pilot who literally knew no fear. Guy was the overconfident jerk who usually asked for whatever hardships he got. And Kyle was the imaginative artist who wasn't fearless, but learned how to overcome fear. Stewart, though, was the Marine who was into completing objectives in a no-nonsense, all business way. I heard in the comics, Stewart had an inferiority complex to Jordan, but that could have changed after the TV series hit. It should be noted that a test pilot, even an Air Force soldier, is not exactly the same as a Marine.

DCAU John Stewart is nothing like the John Stewart from the comics. They added in a bit of Denny O'Neil's stern and uptight Hal Jordan to John Stewart.

Because the DCAU version of John has been such a success, the DCU version has been becoming more and more like his animated counterpart.

Token or not, he's the Green Lantern who was on a TV show the longest since Hal Jordan was on "SUPERFRIENDS", which ended around 1986-1987. Stewart is thus the Green Lantern that many people now attach to the franchise, not Rayner or Jordan. Thus, whether DC wants to or not, they should handle him properly if for no other reason than marketing. I mean, the beauty of the GL franchise is that the Corps make it one where the legacy is color, species, and gender blind. Right?

But asides from the Justice League cartoon (and he was only put on there because the producers wanted to fill a racial quota), DC has always promoted Hal Jordan or Kyle Rayner in the top spot. It's called brand unification.

But both Batman and Guy Gardner are (or are assumed to be) U.S. citizens. They are often based in the U.S. and often defend it against threats both domestic and foreign a majority of the time. Is this negated simply because they don't answer to a domestic general or politician like some of the international heroes do?

The United States should have a proper representative in the Justice League International. Yeah, they'll defend the United States and live in the United States, but they represent completely different interests. They serve to the interests of other groups.

I honestly have no clue. Is he still operating out of that base with Rip Hunter and his sister Michelle? Is that located in Canada? I've never seen Booster align himself with the Canucks like, say, Alpha Flight did. I just assumed DC threw a bone to our northern neighbors because they ran a con up there. Just like everyone's British at a British con.

Booster has been retconned in the post-Flashpoint DCU to be Canadian. They haven't gone into full detail yet.

Also, his adventures with Rip Hunter and Michelle, appear to be gone.

As I stated earlier, Canada (as well as Mexico) is (are) technically part of North America as a continent so you could say Booster Gold represents America, if you see America as beyond simply "The United States Of America". Naturally, when most people say "Americans", they infer the U.S.A. Most people identity Mexicans as "Mexicans" or Canadians as "Canadians" even if both are also on the North American continent and could technically be called Americans too. After all, several modern states were Mexican territory until the 19th century. But now we're arguing semantics. I always assumed Booster Gold operated in the U.S. and merchandised himself there.

Booster used to operate in the United States until Flashpoint.

Nobody will argue the large role the United States plays in "geopolitical theater". They're either a bastion of hope or bullying warmongers, depending on your POV. My point is that whether Guy or Batman (or Booster) answer to a U.S. representative or not, they count as U.S. heroes. They operate there, were born there, and protect the U.S. and it's territory/interests at least 51% of the time, if not maybe 80% of the time. Hell, Bruce Wayne is pretty much a shining example of "the 1%", and his cover identity plays up to that "playboy" stereotype. One could argue Batman insisting on being on the JLI regardless of anyone else's feelings to keep an eye on things is VERY MUCH how the U.S. often acts in international dealings. Guy Gardner even acts very much like how U.S. citizens are seen by foreigners; misinformed, ignorant, and arrogant. Hey, Wheeler often acted like that on "CAPTAIN PLANET AND THE PLANETEERS". It was never Kwame or Gi who had to learn a lesson on tolerance or open mindedness.

I think the debate here is given JLI's premise, you don't see the U.S. is properly represented unless they had a hero who salutes to the President or general or diplomat and goes "sir, YES sir!" like a Captain Atom or (Commander) Steel would. I happen to disagree because both Guy Gardner and Batman are U.S. citizens, and regardless of who they answer to, the bottom line is every other nation has only one hero that hails from their territory while America has two - three if you count Booster Gold, the Future Canadian.

But again, they aren't representing the United States or the Americas in any shape or form. That would be like saying that Ban Ki-moon represents South Korea when the reality is that he represents the interests of the United Nations first and foremost.

The heroic Dr. Light hasn't been seen in ages.

She was in Justice League of America. Showed up in the last arc as well.

Ditto Jakeem Thunder

Justice Society of America

Thunder/Lightening

Outsiders

OMAC is a person of color? I mean besides blue?

Asian

Maybe I'll clarify. DC usually has to go to Milestone for heroes of color who come from North American urban settings. At least if they want more than one or two on a team.

No they don't. I just gave you a rather decent list of characters that have been actively used in 2011 without going into Milestone or WildStorm.

But, yeah, DC has been trying for diversity. Sure, they treat their heroines like rubbish, but they at least have six of them in their own books; Marvel has zero. Someone once asked, "is Voodoo a better character than Storm simply because she has her own ongoing series" online. My answer is, "No, but it's telling DC has more editorial faith in Voodoo than Marvel does in Storm, a character who has appeared in 3 films and 3 TV series across 2 decades".

While you can make an argument for Voodoo, Catwoman, and Starfire, DC has treated Batwoman, Wonder Woman, Supergirl, Batgirl, Dove, various female Legionaries, and the Birds of Prey with utmost respect.

The problem I and some people had with JLI is that some of the characters do fall into stereotype. Most of the focus of these five issues has been on Booster, Batman, Guy, and to a lessor degree Lady Godiva. The rest all act to type. Vixen is the sassy black woman. Rocket Red is the Russkie who talks in pigeon English. August General in Iron is the overly efficient Asian. And I said above, even Guy and Batman act to type to a degree. While this isn't insulting or offensive, it keeps JLI from being more than it could be. While that may be fine - JLI thus far is a Top 25-35 seller, which is WAY better than Jurgens' BOOSTER GOLD sold for ages - I would like to see this book get better with time.

The stereotypes for Guy, Rocket Red, and August General in Iron are freaking hilarious. I also don't see how Batman and Vixen are being stereotypes.

I also don't see the point of throwing in a jingoist character like Capt. Atom or Commander Steel, which will had a 3rd or 4th American to an "international" team and serve no purpose but to get in the stock emotionless soldier onto the team.

You don't have to be a jingoist to serve American interests. Captain Atom is not jingoistic.

I simply disagree with Guy and Batman not "representing" the U.S. simply because they don't salute to a general or a flag.

They don't have to be uber-patriotic the way Rocket Red and August General in Iron are, but there should still be a proper representative for the United States. Guy and Batman would be good representatives if they already didn't represent other interests on the team.

It's why Captain Atom is the perfect addition. He's not a jingoistic character and thus wouldn't push American values onto the book, but instead better reflect the multinational tone of it. He has strong ties with the JLI in the previous continuity, so it's not like he has come out of nowhere.

 

[Dread]

DCAU John Stewart is nothing like the John Stewart from the comics. They added in a bit of Denny O'Neil's stern and uptight Hal Jordan to John Stewart.

Because the DCAU version of John has been such a success, the DCU version has been becoming more and more like his animated counterpart.

I don't see that as an altogether bad thing. Sometimes the Bruce Timm animated series versions of some DC characters were superior, such as for Mr. Freeze. For others, such as Brainiac, it can lead to some confusion.

But asides from the Justice League cartoon (and he was only put on there because the producers wanted to fill a racial quota), DC has always promoted Hal Jordan or Kyle Rayner in the top spot. It's called brand unification.

Call it what you want, but from 2001-2006, Stewart was the GL who appeared on TV as well as action figures, lunchboxes, and other related merchandise. He also appeared in the JLA comic for a time during that period. Reruns and time have helped cement this in at least a notable degree of the mainstream audience. I am not saying it is the ONLY reason "GREEN LANTERN" underperformed, but it certainly didn't help.

Ironically, the Green Lantern who showed up in "SUPERMAN: THE ANIMATED SERIES" would have probably been Hal Jordan had Timm gotten his way, but Kyle Rayner was the current GL in the comics and thus it had to be Kyle; even if the show basically gave him Hal's origin and design. Such a decision seems "SO 1998" nowadays. Much like with Aquaman's hook hand in the JL cartoon. It is amazing to see how much DC/WB has flip-flopped about certain media decisions with certain characters over the years.

The United States should have a proper representative in the Justice League International. Yeah, they'll defend the United States and live in the United States, but they represent completely different interests. They serve to the interests of other groups.

But they're still U.S. heroes. I doubt anyone living in a country which is historically underrepresented in superhero teams would dismiss Batman and Gardner as U.S. heroes simply because they're beholden to other interests before the U.S.' interests. Batman's arguably the most popular superhero in the world right now.

Booster has been retconned in the post-Flashpoint DCU to be Canadian. They haven't gone into full detail yet.

Also, his adventures with Rip Hunter and Michelle, appear to be gone.

Bummer. The angle of Booster's boss being his son from the future was pretty interesting. Sort of like the dynamic between Cable and Cyclops, only without the whole "deadbeat father/lameness" factor.

Booster used to operate in the United States until Flashpoint.

I was under the impression that he still does in the New 52. But, who knows. DC editorial's making it up as they go along.

But again, they aren't representing the United States or the Americas in any shape or form. That would be like saying that Ban Ki-moon represents South Korea when the reality is that he represents the interests of the United Nations first and foremost.

But isn't it still better to have a South Korean as head of the U.N. as opposed to some of the prior heads from more European areas? If so, then how about a robot be the head of the U.N. that has no nationality? Would that be better? Of course not.

Again, heed my Avengers example. If we had an international Avengers team and the only American heroes were Iron Fist and Nova, who essentially represent a mystical dimension and a space police corps, respectively, would you also agree America was not represented because Cap or Hawkeye were not present?

Saying Batman especially does not represent America is a little ridiculous. He's the prototypical American superhero after Superman.

No they don't. I just gave you a rather decent list of characters that have been actively used in 2011 without going into Milestone or WildStorm.

Were they actively used before the New 52? If so, they may no longer count/exist.

While you can make an argument for Voodoo, Catwoman, and Starfire, DC has treated Batwoman, Wonder Woman, Supergirl, Batgirl, Dove, various female Legionaries, and the Birds of Prey with utmost respect.

I honestly can't believe you brought up Dove of all heroines. She's just Hawk's sidekick on a Rob Liefield vehicle which will likely be canceled.

Batgirl's a whole controversial argument right there. Even without the dilemma of erasing Barb's tenure as Oracle and slapping her back into a mantle she hadn't had in 26 years, it is borderline sexist that all of Wayne's Robin's had to be in continuity, but none of the Batgirls could. We have a Wayne who has trained Grayson, Todd, Drake, and Damien within 5 years, but the sheer notion of tossing in Cassandra Cain (who only supported her own book for 5-6 years) or Stephanie Brown would have been a bridge too far? Are you ****ing kidding me!?

It still seems one step forward, two back for DC women. And I acknowledge Marvel isn't a whole lot better, I don't think anyone expects them to. They've never had a solo heroine as iconic and long lasting as Wonder Woman and they've never made an effort to try. Ms. Marvel and Storm are the best they have, and both are laughable in comparison.

The stereotypes for Guy, Rocket Red, and August General in Iron are freaking hilarious. I also don't see how Batman and Vixen are being stereotypes.

The stereotype for Russian superheroes has been intact since Colossus first debuted in 1975, with the only difference being Rocket Red doesn't shout ridiculous stuff like "LENIN'S GHOST!" like Colossus used to. Seriously, no person on the face of the earth has ever shouted, "Lenin's Ghost!" while excited. Perhaps some have while hallucinating on LSD, but they didn't mean the same "Lenin".

Even TV Tropes identifies Vixen under their article for the "Sassy Black Woman" Trope: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SassyBlackWoman

I'll admit Batman's less bossy here than I have seen other places, if only because he's willing to take Booster's orders and supports his leadership. On the other hand, the only reason some of the other heroes do is because Batman does.

I never said they weren't amusing. They're still stereotypes, though, and ideally characters should evolve past them. Yes, despite his pigeon English, Red is still the tech-head. But it diminishes it a little when you're laughing at his chatter. I can buy a psychic dog like Kosmo having it in 2011, I have less patience for a human character, I guess.

You don't have to be a jingoist to serve American interests. Captain Atom is not jingoistic.

My only exposure to him has been in animated appearances, where he usually was. Even if conflicted, he always followed orders no matter how bad or corrupt they were. Someone who carries out bad orders even if they're conflicted is no different than someone who does it gleefully. The act is still done. It doesn't matter.

They don't have to be uber-patriotic the way Rocket Red and August General in Iron are, but there should still be a proper representative for the United States. Guy and Batman would be good representatives if they already didn't represent other interests on the team.

It's why Captain Atom is the perfect addition. He's not a jingoistic character and thus wouldn't push American values onto the book, but instead better reflect the multinational tone of it. He has strong ties with the JLI in the previous continuity, so it's not like he has come out of nowhere.

International heroes from other countries are usually uber-patriotic in American comics, whether they hail from Russia or China or Great Britain or so on. The only exceptions are usually British heroes written by British or European writers.

I'm never going to agree with you that Guy Gardner and especially Batman don't count as United States superheroes. That's absurd. Iron Man certainly doesn't always obey the whims of the military or government; is he not an American superhero? How about Daredevil? Or do they need to have "Captain" or "Commander" in their codename to apply? I guess we'll have to agree to disagree here. Regardless of whether Guy or Batman answer to a general or politician, they're U.S. citizens based in the U.S. and they often operate and protect the U.S. Batman's the second most well known DC superhero worldwide if not THE most by this stage. People who live in caves in Afghanistan know Batman's American. Guy acts more like a stereotypical American than even Hal does.

Adding in Capt. Atom would add a third American to the team; 4th if Booster is indeed included for continental purposes. Meanwhile, every other nation represented only gets one. That seems a little unfair. While it is also common in superhero comics (even GUARDING THE GLOBE, an Image book), I'd like it to not be quite as obvious. Saying Batman and Guy Gardner (much less Booster Gold) don't count as American superheroes is just semantics. You could argue most of DC's superheroes aren't American because they're not military related. Is Superman even fighting for "the American way" anymore?

The team already has nine members (Booster, Guy, Batman, Vixen, Fire, Ice, Red, August General, and Godiva) and two supporting cast members. Adding a 10th is suicide unless Jurgens plans to split them up or have certain characters just exist to spit out a power and get a few lines now and again. I'd prefer the book offer more of that over time. I like JLI, and probably more so than the BOOSTER GOLD book it replaced for me, but I do feel it could and should be better. It needs better villains than made up space menaces nobody cares about, but threats are just wall dressing if the characters don't branch out more. The more extended the cast are, the harder that becomes. I wouldn't be adverse to Capt. Atom coming in if one of the "non-American American heroes" like Guy or Batman left, but I'm fine with both of them. I know DC is assuming people already know everything about these characters, but this is a new universe so there's always context to be had. I know nothing about Rocket Red aside for the fact he's a Russian guy in armor, like Titanium Man only not evil. I know nothing about August General aside for the fact that he doesn't have martial arts powers like 99% of Asian superheroes. Lady Godiva is obscure even for DC fans. Yes, there's wikipedia, but this is a new continuity so their character histories can always change.

If Captain Atom isn't jingoist, then he serves no purpose on the team that aren't filled by Batman, Guy, and/or Booster who also operate in North America and typically defend it's interests. 10 characters is clogged for a team book. I have literally never read one team superhero comic book that exceeded 8 characters where everyone got treated equally in terms of focus and face time. Even GUARDIANS OF THE GALAXY by "DnA" that I loved had characters that basically existed to punch stuff in the background and say one line an issue, such as Major Victory or Jack Flag (or Groot, literally). This book already has nine superheroes and after five issues I know little about half of them besides their codename and nationality, and a bare minimum on power. Adding a tenth isn't going to solve that. And then we'll have four heroes from North America and still only one from the most populated continent on earth (Asia).

I mean, is Captain Atom living energy in a sealed suit? Or some godly energy guy flung from time? Who even knows anymore. I've certainly never cared for him.

FYI, JLI #6 will be drawn by Marco Castiello, as Lopresti will have a month off and then return with issue #7, according to DC's website. Looks like the aftermath of the global disaster will play out for two more issues. We'll see how that goes. Man, if any book could use a random battle with the Royal Flush Gang, it's this one.

 

[hippie_hunter]

I don't see that as an altogether bad thing. Sometimes the Bruce Timm animated series versions of some DC characters were superior, such as for Mr. Freeze. For others, such as Brainiac, it can lead to some confusion.

It's a mixed bag. John Stewart in season 1 was dull and boring because just like in the comics, he was just there to fill a racial quota. It wasn't until season 2 where they actually gave John Stewart and Hawkgirl genuine characterization did they become interesting.

And all it did was create confusion because people now expect John Stewart to act like his animated counterpart when he was nothing like his animated counterpart. In the end, unless you're Peter Tomasi, comic book creators just don't want to write John Stewart. They'd rather have the more fleshed out and interesting Hal Jordan, Kyle Rayner, and Guy Gardner.

Call it what you want, but from 2001-2006, Stewart was the GL who appeared on TV as well as action figures, lunchboxes, and other related merchandise. He also appeared in the JLA comic for a time during that period. Reruns and time have helped cement this in at least a notable degree of the mainstream audience. I am not saying it is the ONLY reason "GREEN LANTERN" underperformed, but it certainly didn't help.

1. Stewart was not the primary Lantern used for DC and WBs' promotion of Green Lantern during that timeframe. The primary Lanterns were Kyle and Hal.

2. John Stewart was a part of Kelly's JLA run because like always, Hal was dead, Guy wasn't a Green Lantern then, and Kyle was unavailable due to events within his own comic. John Stewart does not fit within the Justice League at all.

3. John Stewart not being the Green Lantern had nothing to do with Green Lantern's underperformance. It all lies on the fact that most people thought it looked stupid with bad special effects and the simple fact that it was an underwhelming movie. If Green Lantern didn't look bad and if it were a good movie, it would have been a huge success.

But they're still U.S. heroes. I doubt anyone living in a country which is historically underrepresented in superhero teams would dismiss Batman and Gardner as U.S. heroes simply because they're beholden to other interests before the U.S.' interests. Batman's arguably the most popular superhero in the world right now.

But again, nationality is not a factor. I also think it would make a great story point where other nations are annoyed with the team having several Americans even though two of them represent interests that have nothing to do with the United States or its people.

But isn't it still better to have a South Korean as head of the U.N. as opposed to some of the prior heads from more European areas? If so, then how about a robot be the head of the U.N. that has no nationality? Would that be better? Of course not.

Nationality shouldn't be a factor. My point is that should South Korea not have representation in the United Nations because the Secretary General is South Korean? Of course not. The Secretary General does not represent South Korea, he represents the United Nations. South Korea should have representation to specifically represent the interests of South Korea.

Again, heed my Avengers example. If we had an international Avengers team and the only American heroes were Iron Fist and Nova, who essentially represent a mystical dimension and a space police corps, respectively, would you also agree America was not represented because Cap or Hawkeye were not present?

But it all comes down to what interests they represent. If Iron Fist and Nova actually joined to represent the interests of the United States and they were selected because they were American, then yeah, there is no need for another American represented. The United States is properly represented.

But if you have them representing Kun Lun and the Nova Corps and the interests of those factions, then there should be an actual American representative.

Saying Batman especially does not represent America is a little ridiculous. He's the prototypical American superhero after Superman.

Considering that the American government is constantly at odds with Batman, I don't think he really makes for a good representative.

Were they actively used before the New 52? If so, they may no longer count/exist.

Most of them still exist.

I honestly can't believe you brought up Dove of all heroines. She's just Hawk's sidekick on a Rob Liefield vehicle which will likely be canceled.

She's more than just Hawk's sidekick. She's actually been a major character in Justice League Dark and I think she was in the Deadman arc in DC Universe Presents. She's was also a Teen Titans character where she mentored her sister while she was Hawk.

Batgirl's a whole controversial argument right there. Even without the dilemma of erasing Barb's tenure as Oracle and slapping her back into a mantle she hadn't had in 26 years, it is borderline sexist that all of Wayne's Robin's had to be in continuity, but none of the Batgirls could. We have a Wayne who has trained Grayson, Todd, Drake, and Damien within 5 years, but the sheer notion of tossing in Cassandra Cain (who only supported her own book for 5-6 years) or Stephanie Brown would have been a bridge too far? Are you ****ing kidding me!?

1. Barbara's tenure as Oracle has not been erased.

2. Keeping Barb in that wheelchair was far more sexist and insulting to the character than her going back to the role of Batgirl.

3. Cassandra Cain and Stephanie Brown's tenures as Batgirl are still in continuity.

4. Barbara Gordon's Batgirl book in one issue has sold far more than Cassandra Cain's Batgirl book ever did.

It still seems one step forward, two back for DC women. And I acknowledge Marvel isn't a whole lot better, I don't think anyone expects them to. They've never had a solo heroine as iconic and long lasting as Wonder Woman and they've never made an effort to try. Ms. Marvel and Storm are the best they have, and both are laughable in comparison.

Ummmmm......Batgirl and Supergirl are just as iconic as Wonder Woman. And DC has treated characters like Zatanna, Batwoman, Black Canary, the Huntress, and others with the utmost respect. DC is a million times better in treating female characters than Marvel is with theirs.

My only exposure to him has been in animated appearances, where he usually was. Even if conflicted, he always followed orders no matter how bad or corrupt they were. Someone who carries out bad orders even if they're conflicted is no different than someone who does it gleefully. The act is still done. It doesn't matter.

And it provided great story material for Justice League Unlimited. Imagine the team having to deal with what Captain Atom did but more amplified with Captain Atom, Rocket Red, and August General in Iron.

I'm never going to agree with you that Guy Gardner and especially Batman don't count as United States superheroes. That's absurd. Iron Man certainly doesn't always obey the whims of the military or government; is he not an American superhero? How about Daredevil? Or do they need to have "Captain" or "Commander" in their codename to apply? I guess we'll have to agree to disagree here. Regardless of whether Guy or Batman answer to a general or politician, they're U.S. citizens based in the U.S. and they often operate and protect the U.S. Batman's the second most well known DC superhero worldwide if not THE most by this stage. People who live in caves in Afghanistan know Batman's American. Guy acts more like a stereotypical American than even Hal does.

They don't need to be uberpatriotic like Captain America, but they should still represent the interests of the United States, its government, and its people. Batman and Guy Gardner are not doing that at all in JLI.

Adding in Capt. Atom would add a third American to the team; 4th if Booster is indeed included for continental purposes. Meanwhile, every other nation represented only gets one. That seems a little unfair. While it is also common in superhero comics (even GUARDING THE GLOBE, an Image book), I'd like it to not be quite as obvious. Saying Batman and Guy Gardner (much less Booster Gold) don't count as American superheroes is just semantics. You could argue most of DC's superheroes aren't American because they're not military related. Is Superman even fighting for "the American way" anymore?

They don't have to be military related. They should just represent the United States properly. You can have Green Arrow on the team to represent the United States, just as long as he's actually representing the United States.

I just find Captain Atom to be the better choice because he's a character with a long standing history with the JLI.

The team already has nine members (Booster, Guy, Batman, Vixen, Fire, Ice, Red, August General, and Godiva) and two supporting cast members. Adding a 10th is suicide unless Jurgens plans to split them up or have certain characters just exist to spit out a power and get a few lines now and again. I'd prefer the book offer more of that over time. I like JLI, and probably more so than the BOOSTER GOLD book it replaced for me, but I do feel it could and should be better. It needs better villains than made up space menaces nobody cares about, but threats are just wall dressing if the characters don't branch out more. The more extended the cast are, the harder that becomes. I wouldn't be adverse to Capt. Atom coming in if one of the "non-American American heroes" like Guy or Batman left, but I'm fine with both of them. I know DC is assuming people already know everything about these characters, but this is a new universe so there's always context to be had. I know nothing about Rocket Red aside for the fact he's a Russian guy in armor, like Titanium Man only not evil. I know nothing about August General aside for the fact that he doesn't have martial arts powers like 99% of Asian superheroes. Lady Godiva is obscure even for DC fans. Yes, there's wikipedia, but this is a new continuity so their character histories can always change.

The JLI has always been a book with a rather large roster. It started off with a nine member roster and continued to expand to include Booster Gold, Captain Atom, Rocket Red, Fire, Ice and others before splitting off into Justice League America and Justice League Europe.

The book also had Captain Atom join the team to specifically represent the interests of the United States despite the fact that the only non-American member of the team was Dr. Light.

 

[WOLVERINE25TH]

I'll say this much: when people ask me fer general updates of what's going on in comics these days, I'm at a loss at what to tell them. Why? Because everything is so twisted and muddled that everything you thought you knew is now wrong. Gives me a headache.

 

[Dread]

It's a mixed bag. John Stewart in season 1 was dull and boring because just like in the comics, he was just there to fill a racial quota. It wasn't until season 2 where they actually gave John Stewart and Hawkgirl genuine characterization did they become interesting.

And all it did was create confusion because people now expect John Stewart to act like his animated counterpart when he was nothing like his animated counterpart. In the end, unless you're Peter Tomasi, comic book creators just don't want to write John Stewart. They'd rather have the more fleshed out and interesting Hal Jordan, Kyle Rayner, and Guy Gardner.

Season 1 of "JUSTICE LEAGUE" in general was imperfect and a lot of the characters played to type. Flash was the comic relief. Superman was often bland and astonishingly weak. Still, it provided a foundation to build up on.

It borders on hypocrisy when you dismiss John Stewart as boring while trying to sell me on wanting Captain Atom on JLI. But, hey, we're all fans and do that. Lord knows I do.

Incidentally, I think Bruce Timm had a point. A team that is supposed to represent the earth, or at least "of America" as "JLA" used to be called, should consist of more than just five white dudes, a Martian, and Wonder Woman. It wasn't the most popular move, but at the time it was gutsy, and I respect him for it.

1. Stewart was not the primary Lantern used for DC and WBs' promotion of Green Lantern during that timeframe. The primary Lanterns were Kyle and Hal.

2. John Stewart was a part of Kelly's JLA run because like always, Hal was dead, Guy wasn't a Green Lantern then, and Kyle was unavailable due to events within his own comic. John Stewart does not fit within the Justice League at all.

3. John Stewart not being the Green Lantern had nothing to do with Green Lantern's underperformance. It all lies on the fact that most people thought it looked stupid with bad special effects and the simple fact that it was an underwhelming movie. If Green Lantern didn't look bad and if it were a good movie, it would have been a huge success.

From 2001-2006, the John Stewart GL was included in any merchandise tied into the show, both officially and bootleg versions. That was years worth of toys, backpacks, lunch boxes, and of course the show itself, which aired into syndication on Boomerang and CN itself for ages. This was the first time a Green Lantern character - ANY Lantern - was a regular on a team superhero show since the late 80's when "SUPERFRIENDS" ended. Whether DC likes it or not, they made Stewart a generational character. To people of a certain age, he is their GL of choice, or the Lantern they "knew" first due to exposure before getting into the others.

A disturbing minority of test audiences for "GREEN LANTERN" didn't know who Hal Jordan was, and if I could count how many times I heard/overheard from friends/pedestrians whenever a GL trailer popped on TV or in theaters a line akin to, "Wait, isn't he black?", I would hit a number easily into the four digits, and that's just in Brooklyn.

I agree other factors contributed to the under-performance. But it didn't help and DC perhaps pooched a chance to make up for "STEEL", which is to date the only DC superhero film starring a person of color as the title hero. To be fair, all Marvel has is "BLADE", but he got a trilogy and a short lived TV series spin off, and even an anime from Madhouse. Non-white title superheroes are so rare, that Will Smith had to basically invent one for "HANCOCK" (or, going back further, the Wayons Brothers in "BLANKMAN"). DC has also punted on Wonder Woman in film a few times, but now I am digressing. Maybe Stewart would not have saved "GREEN LANTERN", but the buzz might have been less negative from the start. Buzz more than anything can make or break a film.

But again, nationality is not a factor. I also think it would make a great story point where other nations are annoyed with the team having several Americans even though two of them represent interests that have nothing to do with the United States or its people.

This may come up, and to a degree was implied when the roster was cast.

The fact that Booster, Batman, and Guy don't take orders from a general or sweat over domestic policies is the sort of thing that would irritate someone from the U.S. in power rather than other nations. I doubt Britain or China or Norway care if the American superheroes on the JLI aren't flag wavers. In fact I imagine they may find that refreshing or even exploit that. Many countries - rightly or wrongly, depending on the POV - see the U.S. as a hypocritical bully at worst and a nagging meddler at best.

But it all comes down to what interests they represent. If Iron Fist and Nova actually joined to represent the interests of the United States and they were selected because they were American, then yeah, there is no need for another American represented. The United States is properly represented.

But if you have them representing Kun Lun and the Nova Corps and the interests of those factions, then there should be an actual American representative.

But do all of the other JLI superheroes distinctly represent the interests of their nation de facto, or do they just hail from that section of the world? While obviously Rocket Red and August General do, how patriotic some of the other heroes are, such as Fire, Ice, and especially Godiva is debatable. Is Ice specifically there to support Norse interests? Do members of Parliment give Godiva marching orders? Or is it like Batman and Guy; they count because of heritage and recognition back home?

Considering that the American government is constantly at odds with Batman, I don't think he really makes for a good representative.

I don't know exactly Batman's status in the New DCU. In the old days, while on paper Batman was a vigilante, half the GCPD worked with him or at least didn't attempt to arrest him, including the Commissioner, because they relied on him to solve crimes from their super villains. Sure, every now and then some expert would blame all the crazies on Batman, but then they'd leave and nothing substantial would come of it. I can't think of too many instances where Batman's presence on the JLA team effected their public relations; although in fairness in many Post-Crisis versions, Batman's presence on the team wasn't as obvious.

Still, you have Guy and Booster. The latter at least represents America's willingness to sell out for a fast buck.

1. Barbara's tenure as Oracle has not been erased.

2. Keeping Barb in that wheelchair was far more sexist and insulting to the character than her going back to the role of Batgirl.

3. Cassandra Cain and Stephanie Brown's tenures as Batgirl are still in continuity.

4. Barbara Gordon's Batgirl book in one issue has sold far more than Cassandra Cain's Batgirl book ever did.

1. The comics have stated Barb's tenure in the wheelchair happened. There has been little mention of Oracle besides instance from DC senior editors, who by this stage lie only half as often as Marvel's Tom Brevoort.

2. That's a whole other debate that I don't think we can fit her. The bottom line was it sent a message that you cannot be handicapped and also a hero on equal terms with someone able bodied, that someone who is handicapped must always strive to be "normal" and cannot simply accept who they are. The other angle was Barb did not want to accept a cure that was not available to the public. Was Zatanna going to cure EVERY cripple? Was Superman going to devote 25 seconds in the Fortress Of Solitude to figure a way to fix spines vs. having extra coffee with Lois as Kent? Was Cyborg or John Henry Irons going to mass produce some cybernetic graft? That was why the bit in BATGIRL where they claim Barb went for some experimental medical procedure in a foreign land attempted to live up to that. In theory Barbara getting her spine fixed there would help the technique spread via practice and whatnot.

Finally, the angle that Barbara is a better hero when she's throwing Batarangs at muggers instead of being a global information and networking resource to virtually every superhero and law enforcement agency is just about the most backward thinking thing I have ever heard.

3. Cain and Brown are not mentioned. As everyone in the DCU is younger, they'd have to be infants. And aside for a Grant Morrison out of continuity Batman story, they haven't appeared in print.

4. You're right on that one. Isn't it wonderful that sales always reinforce every superhero franchise being filled by the same (white) person who had it back in 1967? To hell with being bold and innovative, right?

Yes, I know, DC is more so then Marvel at the moment. But that's like saying a normal run of the mill coward is braver than a sniveling, "curl into a fetal ball" coward. DC only seems bold in comparison to Marvel's conservatism.

Ummmmm......Batgirl and Supergirl are just as iconic as Wonder Woman. And DC has treated characters like Zatanna, Batwoman, Black Canary, the Huntress, and others with the utmost respect. DC is a million times better in treating female characters than Marvel is with theirs.

That's true, which is why nobody expects anything of Marvel's heroines and why DC usually has the eye on them in that regard. Wonder Woman has the advantage of being a solo heroine who was not the feminized spin-off of a male franchise, like about 70% of all heroines across Marvel and DC are (at least the ones of any recognition). Batgirl and Supergirl are well known, I couldn't agree with iconic; WW predates both.

But, yes, DC is better at that than Marvel. They give heroines their own books, even if some are treated well and get raved and others are strippers or floozies. Marvel doesn't do either. Their best known heroines are cogs in team books and even some of their best known ones are far from their prime. Every decade that goes by, Marvel loses another generation of potential fangirls to DC. Go to a convention - ANY convention. The only Marvel fangirls there will be X-Men ones, by and large. The rest will be DC ones. Given that women are still buying books and whatnot in droves while me are falling off, that audience is money left at the table for whatever company run by scared middle aged men willing to grab for it.

And it provided great story material for Justice League Unlimited. Imagine the team having to deal with what Captain Atom did but more amplified with Captain Atom, Rocket Red, and August General in Iron.

That just leads to hero vs. hero infighting. Which as a Marvel fanboy I am getting a little tired of. The collective yawn in regards to AVENGERS VS. X-MEN says it all.

They don't need to be uberpatriotic like Captain America, but they should still represent the interests of the United States, its government, and its people. Batman and Guy Gardner are not doing that at all in JLI.

I still say that's debatable. The U.S. isn't interested in stopping alien invasions to both American lands and allies lands? The U.S. isn't thrilled that ALL of Earth's Green Lanterns are 100% American born citizens (two of which were military men)? No, they're not uberpatriotic, but neither are most of the heroes on JLI aside for Rocket Red.

They don't have to be military related. They should just represent the United States properly. You can have Green Arrow on the team to represent the United States, just as long as he's actually representing the United States.

I just find Captain Atom to be the better choice because he's a character with a long standing history with the JLI.

Clever mention, since Jurgens was recently drawing GREEN LANTERN. If given a choice between Green Arrow and Capt. Atom, I'd take the latter.

Again, how many of the other heroes are representing their home lands as much as you would expect Capt. Atom, a superhuman created and owned lock, stock, and barrel by the U.S. military, would be? Lady Godiva hails from Britain and is famous there, but does she take orders from Interpol or Parliment or the Queen? If Ice really represented Norway, she'd be neutral. I just think you've homed in on the U.S. representation bit because you want Atom there. Which is fine for a longtime fan, I guess.

The JLI has always been a book with a rather large roster. It started off with a nine member roster and continued to expand to include Booster Gold, Captain Atom, Rocket Red, Fire, Ice and others before splitting off into Justice League America and Justice League Europe.

The book also had Captain Atom join the team to specifically represent the interests of the United States despite the fact that the only non-American member of the team was Dr. Light.

Don't forget JUSTICE LEAGUE: ANTARCTICA!

Yes, DC was once ****ing out the JL franchise long before Marvel was doing the same to the Avengers.

The dilemma with books with large rosters is that some get lost to the shuffle. While that is fun for a while, I guess I'd like to see JLI evolve beyond just being the fun, safe book and become a book people talk about. After all, it's the diverse book that isn't dripping in post-90's "kewl" and features some more obscure characters to meet. And part of that means fleshing out the characters, which won't happen if there's 70-kajillion of them. I'd rather focus on the nine heroes we have until I'd be keen to see a 10th added.

I'll say this much: when people ask me fer general updates of what's going on in comics these days, I'm at a loss at what to tell them. Why? Because everything is so twisted and muddled that everything you thought you knew is now wrong. Gives me a headache.

Good to know, considering you're the guy who writes for INDEXES and thus part of keeping fans hip!

In seriousness, given relaunches and renumberings and guest appearances, I imagine index work can be a pain to figure out where things start and end.

 

[TheVileOne]

JLI is the only DCNU book I actually like. Just basic superhero team stuff.

The only thing I don't really get is why Batman is supporting Booster and wants him to lead a team. And also why Batman joined the team when he's already on the actual Justice League.

 

[Dread]

JLI is the only DCNU book I actually like. Just basic superhero team stuff.

The only thing I don't really get is why Batman is supporting Booster and wants him to lead a team. And also why Batman joined the team when he's already on the actual Justice League.

Batman joins the JLI because he's Batman and wants to keep an eye on the branch-off team, as well as make sure things are done right due to his presence. Batman does that.

As for his trust of Booster? To me it flows from the relationship Batman and Booster had during Jurgens' run drawing/writing/co-writing most of BOOSTER GOLD from it's launch after 52. In that, Batman was the one hero who knew to a degree that Booster was doing important work or that he was more than his rep appeared. That as a theme seems to be something Jurgens has brought to the book. Which, admittedly, is awkward to someone going in cold. ACTION COMICS is the more "important" book due to Morrison and the character, but JLI is the more "straightforward simple adventure" book to me because it doesn't have that weight of prestige and it can just be. If that makes sense.

I do hope for better characterization and villains, though. But it's the first arc, those can come.

Technically, I tried 3 NEW 52 books; ACTION COMICS, BLUE BEETLE, and JLI. The middle one was underwhelming compared to the prior volume so I ditched it.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Season 1 of "JUSTICE LEAGUE" in general was imperfect and a lot of the characters played to type. Flash was the comic relief. Superman was often bland and astonishingly weak. Still, it provided a foundation to build up on.

It borders on hypocrisy when you dismiss John Stewart as boring while trying to sell me on wanting Captain Atom on JLI. But, hey, we're all fans and do that. Lord knows I do.

Incidentally, I think Bruce Timm had a point. A team that is supposed to represent the earth, or at least "of America" as "JLA" used to be called, should consist of more than just five white dudes, a Martian, and Wonder Woman. It wasn't the most popular move, but at the time it was gutsy, and I respect him for it.

I think they should have gone with Kyle in the Justice League series. Kyle is half-Latino plus he was already firmly established in the DCAU.

Also the lack of Aquaman was a crime

From 2001-2006, the John Stewart GL was included in any merchandise tied into the show, both officially and bootleg versions. That was years worth of toys, backpacks, lunch boxes, and of course the show itself, which aired into syndication on Boomerang and CN itself for ages. This was the first time a Green Lantern character - ANY Lantern - was a regular on a team superhero show since the late 80's when "SUPERFRIENDS" ended. Whether DC likes it or not, they made Stewart a generational character. To people of a certain age, he is their GL of choice, or the Lantern they "knew" first due to exposure before getting into the others.

A disturbing minority of test audiences for "GREEN LANTERN" didn't know who Hal Jordan was, and if I could count how many times I heard/overheard from friends/pedestrians whenever a GL trailer popped on TV or in theaters a line akin to, "Wait, isn't he black?", I would hit a number easily into the four digits, and that's just in Brooklyn.

I saw a couple of people ask me "Isn't Green Lantern black?" for the same reason, but overall, DC and Warner Bros used Hal or Kyle for their promotions outside of Justice League related advertising and merchandising.

I agree other factors contributed to the under-performance. But it didn't help and DC perhaps pooched a chance to make up for "STEEL", which is to date the only DC superhero film starring a person of color as the title hero. To be fair, all Marvel has is "BLADE", but he got a trilogy and a short lived TV series spin off, and even an anime from Madhouse. Non-white title superheroes are so rare, that Will Smith had to basically invent one for "HANCOCK" (or, going back further, the Wayons Brothers in "BLANKMAN"). DC has also punted on Wonder Woman in film a few times, but now I am digressing. Maybe Stewart would not have saved "GREEN LANTERN", but the buzz might have been less negative from the start. Buzz more than anything can make or break a film.

John Stewart being the Green Lantern would have done nothing in regards to the buzz for the Green Lantern movie. If Green Lantern looked like a good movie, people would have gone, plain and simple. You see most people don't care about the race of a character, they just want a good movie.

Many countries - rightly or wrongly, depending on the POV - see the U.S. as a hypocritical bully at worst and a nagging meddler at best.

Which would bring even more great geopolitical stories.

But do all of the other JLI superheroes distinctly represent the interests of their nation de facto, or do they just hail from that section of the world? While obviously Rocket Red and August General do, how patriotic some of the other heroes are, such as Fire, Ice, and especially Godiva is debatable. Is Ice specifically there to support Norse interests? Do members of Parliment give Godiva marching orders? Or is it like Batman and Guy; they count because of heritage and recognition back home?

Ice was brought on the team to represent Europe overall. She's more tied to representing Europe as a whole over a specific nation. She's actually the least nationalistic member of the team, not counting Batman and Guy Gardner.

Fire has lots of ties as an agent of various intelligence departments within the Brazilian government. She's as nationalistic as Rocket Red and August General in Iron.

Lady Godiva was recommended specifically to win the approval of the British Ambassador to the United Nations (which has veto power). There were nationalistic reasons for her choice.

I don't know exactly Batman's status in the New DCU. In the old days, while on paper Batman was a vigilante, half the GCPD worked with him or at least didn't attempt to arrest him, including the Commissioner, because they relied on him to solve crimes from their super villains. Sure, every now and then some expert would blame all the crazies on Batman, but then they'd leave and nothing substantial would come of it. I can't think of too many instances where Batman's presence on the JLA team effected their public relations; although in fairness in many Post-Crisis versions, Batman's presence on the team wasn't as obvious.

Batman's status in the post-Flashpoint DCU is the exact same as before the reboot.

1. The comics have stated Barb's tenure in the wheelchair happened. There has been little mention of Oracle besides instance from DC senior editors, who by this stage lie only half as often as Marvel's Tom Brevoort.

Her tenure as Oracle still happened. Batman continuity was barely changed.

2. That's a whole other debate that I don't think we can fit her. The bottom line was it sent a message that you cannot be handicapped and also a hero on equal terms with someone able bodied, that someone who is handicapped must always strive to be "normal" and cannot simply accept who they are. The other angle was Barb did not want to accept a cure that was not available to the public. Was Zatanna going to cure EVERY cripple? Was Superman going to devote 25 seconds in the Fortress Of Solitude to figure a way to fix spines vs. having extra coffee with Lois as Kent? Was Cyborg or John Henry Irons going to mass produce some cybernetic graft? That was why the bit in BATGIRL where they claim Barb went for some experimental medical procedure in a foreign land attempted to live up to that. In theory Barbara getting her spine fixed there would help the technique spread via practice and whatnot.

In a world where everyone has had far worse injuries than Barbara and got better as if nothing happened, it's insulting to keep Barbara in the wheelchair. Damian got a new freaking spine for crying out loud!

Finally, the angle that Barbara is a better hero when she's throwing Batarangs at muggers instead of being a global information and networking resource to virtually every superhero and law enforcement agency is just about the most backward thinking thing I have ever heard.

Now that is certainly debatable, and I actually agree with you to a certain extent. But you don't need a wheelchair to have Barbara in the role of Oracle.

3. Cain and Brown are not mentioned. As everyone in the DCU is younger, they'd have to be infants. And aside for a Grant Morrison out of continuity Batman story, they haven't appeared in print.

Grant Morrison's Batman Incorporated: Leviathan Strikes which had Stephanie Brown as Batgirl is not out of continuity. It still happened. Cassandra Cain and Stephanie Browns' tenures as Batgirl are still in continuity. Also with your logic, Tim Drake would be an infant. He's clearly 17/18 in the new continuity.

Gail Simone has come out saying that Cassandra Cain and Stephanie Brown are still in continuity and has plans to eventually use them in the Batgirl book.

4. You're right on that one. Isn't it wonderful that sales always reinforce every superhero franchise being filled by the same (white) person who had it back in 1967? To hell with being bold and innovative, right?

More along the lines that most people equate Batgirl with Barbara. She's always the Batgirl Warner Bros. and DC used to promote the character.

That just leads to hero vs. hero infighting. Which as a Marvel fanboy I am getting a little tired of. The collective yawn in regards to AVENGERS VS. X-MEN says it all.

As long as the build up is good, I don't mind it. The problem with Marvel's hero vs. hero infighting is that they're just doing it for the sake of doing it. The build up to Civil War and Avengers vs. X-Men is just poor.

Meanwhile the build up to Captain Atom's conflict with the League was done very well.

Clever mention, since Jurgens was recently drawing GREEN LANTERN. If given a choice between Green Arrow and Capt. Atom, I'd take the latter.

Again, how many of the other heroes are representing their home lands as much as you would expect Capt. Atom, a superhuman created and owned lock, stock, and barrel by the U.S. military, would be? Lady Godiva hails from Britain and is famous there, but does she take orders from Interpol or Parliment or the Queen? If Ice really represented Norway, she'd be neutral. I just think you've homed in on the U.S. representation bit because you want Atom there. Which is fine for a longtime fan, I guess.

Yes, I do want Captain Atom there for the two reasons that Captain Atom is a long standing JLI cast member and to give the United States specific representation in the JLI (just like how he was in the previous incarnation).

As for heroes that are representing their homelands/factions as much as Captain Atom would: Batman (specifically representing the interests of the Justice League), Rocket Red (member of Russia's Rocket Red Brigade, a part of the Russian Ground Forces in the military), August General in Iron (a member of the People's Liberation Army and Great Ten which was also controlled by the Chinese government), Guy Gardner (representing the Green Lantern Corps and the interests they have on Earth as a whole), and Fire (once a part of Brazil's National Information Service and Brazilian Intelligence Agency). So right there you have 5 out of 9 members that serve specific interests.

While Booster Gold and Ice have no specific ties to a government, it hasn't been explained if Vixen and Lady Godiva do or do not. Although Zambesi and the United Kingdom were very pleased that they were put on the team.

The dilemma with books with large rosters is that some get lost to the shuffle. While that is fun for a while, I guess I'd like to see JLI evolve beyond just being the fun, safe book and become a book people talk about. After all, it's the diverse book that isn't dripping in post-90's "kewl" and features some more obscure characters to meet. And part of that means fleshing out the characters, which won't happen if there's 70-kajillion of them. I'd rather focus on the nine heroes we have until I'd be keen to see a 10th added.

Books can thrive with large rosters if the writer has the talent to do so. Some of the best Justice League eras (Conway's Satellite Era, Giffen and DeMatteis' International Era, Morrison's JLA Era) were the ones that had large rosters.

 

[WOLVERINE25TH]

Smoke and mirrors, Dread: I ask for lots of informational help from the rest of the staff. My Marvel Universe ends sometime before Vulcan appeared.

 

[THANOSRULES]

As an addition, as well as to continue a conversation from last week's B/T topic, I did flip through this week's AVENGERS ANNUAL. Now, a "flip-through" is not the same as a read so I will try to keep it brief. I likely will fail.

I had flipped through the NEW AVENGERS annual I think so the conclusion of this story and where it was taking Wonder Man didn't stun me too much. However, even on a flip-through, I saw enough that irritated me that handing over $4 to read the rest would not be a fathomable suggestion. I simply do not understand why Bendis seems to be convinced that the best thing to do with Wanda Maximoff is to make her a crazy woman. Ages ago when he was just on NEW AVENGERS and I was still reading WIZARD or somewhere else, Bendis claimed it stems from a story in WEST COAST AVENGERS where Wanda goes batty again and joins Magneto, and he felt that story ended too soon or whatnot. I suppose for the man who made it a fad to stretch every story at least 6 issues, if not 7-8 across the medium, he's right. The problem is this train of thought removes a heroine who has long been a mainstay of the Avengers franchise. Her resurrection of Wonder Man to save herself from Morgan LeFey during the start of the Busiek/Perez AVENGERS run has often been heralded as a great AVENGERS moment, timeless and even romantic given what came later. Well, in this annual, Bendis reduces that to a dark summoning spell cast by a crazy woman. I think I understand why Bendis is at home in crime noir or solo vigilante stories. It is because he seems to have a thing for taking fantastic or extraordinary things, and people, and bringing them down to something seedy, trashy, grim, violent, or disturbed. After all, he couldn't write Dr. Doom unless he did so by having Doom insult a woman's figure or be in the middle of sex with Morgan LeFey. BKV in THE OATH had Dr. Strange and Night-Nurse begin a rather charming romance as a sort of mystical version of Holmes & Watson - the eccentric genius expert and his down-to-earth practical partner. What does Bendis do? Take it between the sheets with some crude humor thrown in. He's also the guy - and this bit I never forget - who devoted an entire page in ULTIMATE SPIDER-MAN to using Reed Richards to tell a urine joke. Clearly, he does not like fantastic elements or people in comics and sees them only as a means to an end, and usually that end is ugly or crude because that's "real".

Lord knows I have complained up and down about Heinberg's AVENGERS: THE CHILDREN'S CRUSADE, so it isn't as if Bendis is the only writer who I am hard on. But if there is one thing that I do like that Heinberg is doing there, he's trying to rehabilitate Wanda as a character. He is trying to attach a lot of her worst moments to Dr. Doom. He's doing a crude job of making the X-Men and Avengers seem like violent thugs to better portray Wanda as an innocent victim, but at least there's that. Despite all of Heinberg's faults, I at least get the idea that he does like Scarlet Witch and wants to see her a serious Avenger again. At the very least, he sees her as a tragic figure and not a mad crazy woman.

This, naturally, avoids the topic of Bendis making Wonder Man into a far more twisted character than Grim Reaper, his own brother. In fact, I could see leading a team of "revengers" for supposed crimes which really are just hypocritical lunacy to justify violence being a PERFECT plot for Grim Reaper. Yet the only time Bendis uses villains, it's either Norman Osborn or the Hood, and he both over uses them and makes them 400% more efficient and powerful than they should be. He had Hood go after the Infinity Gauntlet, for heaven's sakes. BKV made him to basically be a "hood", a morally ambiguous lower level villain like Shocker, and instead Bendis has made him a megalomaniac who even Wizard works for. Wonder Man has been a character that wonky things happened to, but at his heart is redemption. He was initially consumed by revenge which was why he agreed to be empowered by Zemo and work to betray the team, but ended up dying to save them. Ever since he's sought to atone for that and be a worthy hero, and he has many times over. Well, now he's just some summoned creature out for blood.

I said elsewhere, and I may as well repeat it, how it's funny how Bendis seems to save the worst for WCA characters. He's intent on destroying Scarlet Witch, one of Marvel's few longtime heroines. He made Tigra a random victim. He killed off Vision for six years, and Hawkeye for a few. And now he's set about making Wonder Man a worse villain than any actual villain he has actually written. I'd say he didn't help Pym much, but at least the "Pym" he wrote was a Skrull. I can't speak on how well or poorly he's handled Mockingbird, but I do find the concept of a Skrull being so good at replacing her that "she" fooled even Mephisto who had the "dead" Mockingbird present in the underworld a few times laughable.

This also doesn't get into his usual mangling of lower tier characters. Seriously, what did D-Man or Devil-Slayer do? The fact that Capt. Ultra and Atlas are willing to form an Avengers hit squad out of anger about not being made members shows why they weren't made members. But even many of these little characters are off. I suppose Anti-Venom is fine given that lunatics always can alter their motives. But, didn't he want to be taken seriously as a vigilante crime fighter? How does battering the Avengers do that? As a rite of passage? Razorback saw it that way once.

However...I can say that the best thing of this is that it can create some opportunities for the right writers. Editorial will support these shocking character shifts - anything Bendis writes is INSTA-CANON, that every editor down the line ensures is consistent. The only writer who undid something Bendis did specifically was Peter Milligan, who repowered Iceman 1 issue after Bendis personally depowered him at the end of HOUSE OF M. You'll notice he doesn't write high profile things (like UNCANNY X-MEN) for Marvel since. It's probably a coincidence, but it's an amazing one. BUT, then we have Christos Gage, who took Tigra after the NEW AVENGERS victim bit and really utilized that as a catalyst to reform her and make her more than furry fetish fuel, but an experienced and even deep heroine. Tigra's a stronger character than she's ever been thanks to Gage's care on A:TI and AA. Every character big or small has someone that likes them, and sometimes that can be writers in the Marvel bullpen themselves who may use this story as a reason to rehabilitate them. After all, it may be easier to justify a Devil-Slayer story in an anthology somewhere after this, than it would have been before.

Bendis finally got around to using Count Nefaria as a super powered mobster, and where does he use him? MOON KNIGHT, where the character is crazier than Two-Face. His final issue of Avengers material this year can't come soon enough. Maybe then the Avengers can get more writers who don't seem to consistently hate the tropes of the franchise as much as Bendis does. It's never been where he's been at his best, and the fact that Marvel has kept them there so long despite that is telling.

Yeah, I suck at being brief.



Batman hails from the U.S. and as a rich white guy, is a stereotypical American superhero.

I actually forgot that DC now claims Booster Gold is Canadian - albeit a future Canadian. Still, Canada is technically part of North America. Guy Gardner hails from the U.S., he's simply part of an intergalactic space cop squad. Has it been explained why Earth needs 4 Green Lanterns in the NEW 52 continuity when every other planet in the universe seems to only have one? I still find it bemusing that earth has 4 of them and not one is or has ever been a woman, considering they consist of half the planet's population. The Guardians must think earth women don't have willpower.

An elseworlds story where Lois Lane got a ring might be interesting. But now I'm just brainstorming.

I really think these avengers annuals are the worst comics I have ever read , or have been produced.

Even if you accept the ridiculous plot..simon was drawn like an utter unimaginable lunatic in every panel.

so much is out of continuity it's not even funny...I'd say text book bendis, but really he has never even been THIS bad.

I agree with everything you've said.

Not only does Bendis get everything wrong, but he does perma-damage to a decent blend of c-list heroes who could have been interesting... especially Atlas who was the biggest name here..and really quite a good character.

You forgot to lump in his treatment of Force Works Century..who could fit into the WC hate. (bendis is also guilty of showing Dr. Demonicus kicking in doors with pistols)

 

[Phaedrus45]

Quick reviews from what I've read this week.

Shinku #4

This series has been alright. The problem is that we've had enough vampire and vampire slayer tales, that another one doesn't really do much for me. Plus, Marz has done much better than this. What's good is that it's cheap. What's bad is that it's forgettable.

Graveyard Of Empires #3

This mini seems to be getting worse; and, those long delays that are really cramping my enjoyment of many Image titles isn't helping things any. Like with Shinku, we really don't need another zombie infestation story; and, even though this one is set in Afghanistan during the war, it pales in comparison to Image's other zombie-war comic, '68.

iZombie #21

Still love this title; but, I'm a bit disappointed that Mike Allred's art isn't featured any longer. I'm hoping he's just taking a break; because, his style works so nicely with the characters and story.

Fatale #1

Good start to Brubaker's newest Criminal-style story. It's got a nice twist that makes it different than the other stuff he's done; but, I kept wondering why this book didn't come out under the Marvel Icon brand. Maybe Criminal and Incognito hasn't done so well by Marvel standards, and he had to take his product elsewhere?? I wish Marvel would expand that Icon line to be more like Vertigo or many of Image titles; but, I'm thinking Marvel will never take that big leap. Or, maybe their writers just prefer going to Image, and having more control over their product or something else.

Peanuts #1

My daughter and I really enjoy the new Peanuts comic series. (This is actually the second issue, as a #0 came out previously.) The new strips are faithful to the Peanuts gang we all know and love; and, Kaboom includes some nice classic cartoons to fill in some space. My one complaint is young readers don't get a whole lot for their $3.99. The comic reads very fast, and a better deal is buying some of the old Peanuts books that used to come out in collections. (Wonder if Half-Priced Books have those old books. I read them all the time when I was a kid.)

Punisher #7

I enjoyed this issue much more than the previous. I'm starting to appreciate the detectives that Rucka is introducing us to in the past 7 issues; but, I still feel like the book is dragging a bit. I'm left wondering if there is any purpose to stuff we've read before and if those previous events are important to the destruction Frank Castle is currently causing.

Avengers Annual #1

At first, I wasn't liking this issue that much. When Simon Williams was so easily defeated, and then his gang of alternate-Avengers also were beaten, I felt this was another example of Bendis not being that good at action sequences again. BUT, by the end of the issue, I changed my mind. I love how this storyline connects to the events in Avengers: The Children's Crusade; and, how Simon now questions his resurrection. It's something I didn't ever contemplate before; but, such an obvious question that should have been explored long before this story. It definitely sets up a huge future storyline; and, I hope we don't have to wait too long for it to play out.

Action Comics #5

Hated this issue. Morrison peeves me to no end when he writes these choppy, jumping-all-over-the-place issues. We've seen it so many times, and it's just aggrivating. I feel like I always come away with more questions than he has answers; and, he's trying to shove a whole bunch of material in just a couple issues. (Plus, I'm tired of yet another Superman origin, especially after Johns wrote a much better one a year ago.)

Animal Man #5

I love this comic; and, Foreman's art goes so beautifully with Lemire's story. I guess if I wanted to complain about something, it would be that the storyline isn't advancing very fast. Not a lot has happened in the last five issues. Still, I'm hooked, and Lemire keeps me coming back for more. (What a difference from his Superboy comic!)

I will make one complaint, though, that has more to do with something I'm not liking about DC right now. They seem to want to shove all their comics down our throat as must-buys; and, each comic seems to have one or two others that are billed as almost essential buying to fully enjoy a story. Events from Stormwatch are being billed as essential reading if you follow Superman and some other comic. Animal Man is closely tied to Swamp Thing. (Luckily, both those are excellent books; but, if you don't like Swamp Thing, you'd be kind of peeved to having to buy that book, I would guess.) Right now, OMAC and Frankenstein are sharing their adventures.

Also, it's annoying how each issue of a DC comic does nothing but self promote their books. I think I counted 12 pages of promotional ads in one of the DC books. That's pretty darn close to the page count of a single story.

Lone Ranger #1

Nice first issue, and much better than the series before it. Readers get a one-off story; so, whether you are going to be back next issue or not, you feel as if you got your money's worth. I guess a downside would be that it doesn't exactly make people beg to read the next issue; but, personally, I'm loving that we're seeing more one-off stories lately than we have in years.

Uncanny X-Men #4

And, that's what makes this issue so nice. I hated the previous 3-issue story arc, and expected that I would feel no better about this issue. Surprised I was by a one-off issue whose story I just loved. This is just well written; and, I hope we see more of it in future issues. (For a while, I thought we were going to get a continuation of the Sinister storyline. Thankfully, that didn't happen.) This might be the most surprisingly enjoyed comic of the week.

OMAC #5

I finally caught up on this series (issues 2-5), and I'm happy to say it's still just as good as that first issue. Sure, as I mentioned above, it's kind of annoying to have the tie-in with Frankenstein; but, the story plays out nicely. This comic really feels like a throwback to old storytelling; and, I hope DC keeps going with it. I'm not too hopeful, though, as it's one of their lesser selling books. (Also, I guess a complaint would be that the storyline doesn't advance very much. It reminds me very much of Hulk-Want-To-Be-Left-Alone storylines from the 70's.)

Men Of War #5

Another comic that I decided to catch up on this week; and, that's not a good thing. Wednesday, I'm dropping it. It's dull and boring; and, the stories are made worse by bringing in a supernatural element to the main characters. I shouldn't be too surprised, though; because, Ivan Brandon usually writes stories that don't do very much for me.

 

[Dread]

I think they should have gone with Kyle in the Justice League series. Kyle is half-Latino plus he was already firmly established in the DCAU.

Also the lack of Aquaman was a crime

Apparently to TV executives, a black man is more representative of a minority race than a half Latino. Hawkgirl was likely seen as filling in that role. Andrea Romano deliberately cast mostly Latino actors as Thanagarians, to avoid the cliche of many aliens sounding like "generic Caucasians" (my term).

Aquaman did guest star once a season for most of the show. However, he was often written more like Namor for my liking. At the very least the show made steps to trying to improve the mainstream perception that he's lame by having him be a bad-ass.

I saw a couple of people ask me "Isn't Green Lantern black?" for the same reason, but overall, DC and Warner Bros used Hal or Kyle for their promotions outside of Justice League related advertising and merchandising.

There was a DAMN LOT of " Justice League related advertising and merchandising" for a mere HALF DECADE PERIOD. That's ages in the modern era. That's longer than one Presidential term.

John Stewart being the Green Lantern would have done nothing in regards to the buzz for the Green Lantern movie. If Green Lantern looked like a good movie, people would have gone, plain and simple. You see most people don't care about the race of a character, they just want a good movie.

Confusing less people is never a bad thing. But, as I didn't see it, I assumed it was underwhelming for other reasons. The trailers never got be psyched for the project; the CGI looked both clunky and over baring, and it seemed to borrow too heavily from just about every other superhero film cliche. Maybe it was wrong to dismiss a film by it's trailer, but I imagine I was not alone.

Ice was brought on the team to represent Europe overall. She's more tied to representing Europe as a whole over a specific nation. She's actually the least nationalistic member of the team, not counting Batman and Guy Gardner.

Fire has lots of ties as an agent of various intelligence departments within the Brazilian government. She's as nationalistic as Rocket Red and August General in Iron.

Lady Godiva was recommended specifically to win the approval of the British Ambassador to the United Nations (which has veto power). There were nationalistic reasons for her choice.

Right, so Godiva represents Britain specifically and Ice represents the rest of Europe in general. Still, I don't see you arguing Ice isn't representative enough as you were for Batman or Guy Gardner. By that logic, Booster vaguely representing the continent of North America (which includes Canada, the U.S.A., and Mexico) makes them equals. There're a lot of countries in "Europe" after all.

Batman's status in the post-Flashpoint DCU is the exact same as before the reboot.

Which makes zero sense since his universe interacted with other facets of the DCU which are NOT exactly the same.

Her tenure as Oracle still happened. Batman continuity was barely changed.

There has been little mention of it sense the shift.

In a world where everyone has had far worse injuries than Barbara and got better as if nothing happened, it's insulting to keep Barbara in the wheelchair. Damian got a new freaking spine for crying out loud!

Barbara didn't want a "cure" that was beyond the realm of normal, non-superhero connected humans and she didn't see it as a handicap.

Now that is certainly debatable, and I actually agree with you to a certain extent. But you don't need a wheelchair to have Barbara in the role of Oracle.

It was DC's reason for not having her be Batgirl. For why she used her mind and skills to succeed instead of her body (unless she had to, and she could still kick ass from a wheelchair without the sorts of gadgets that Quincy Harker used to have).

But, you're right. Sales are better now and that's all that matters. Money money money money MONEY. It's all humanity collectively desires. God forbid the company that pretends to promote things like ideals and examples to the downtrodden practice what it preaches.

Grant Morrison's Batman Incorporated: Leviathan Strikes which had Stephanie Brown as Batgirl is not out of continuity. It still happened. Cassandra Cain and Stephanie Browns' tenures as Batgirl are still in continuity. Also with your logic, Tim Drake would be an infant. He's clearly 17/18 in the new continuity.

Gail Simone has come out saying that Cassandra Cain and Stephanie Brown are still in continuity and has plans to eventually use them in the Batgirl book.

Simone clearly is operating under strict editorial guideline. The almighty Morrison can do what he wants, but I'll believe it when Cain and Brown show up elsewhere then a comic that was coming out regardless of the New 52 like Leviathan was.

More along the lines that most people equate Batgirl with Barbara. She's always the Batgirl Warner Bros. and DC used to promote the character.

Because DC did ZERO - zip, zilch, nad, nothing - to promote any character as Batgirl besides Barbara since, literally, they first put Batman on TV. Meanwhile, both Tim Drake and Jason Todd have shown up in some form of media or another. Explain to me how that's rational or fair. You reap what you sow. Ironically, a CGI Batman is coming in 2013 to CN and it'll pare Batman with an Asian sidekick...Katana. Clearly the Cain Batgirl would have made more sense.

As long as the build up is good, I don't mind it. The problem with Marvel's hero vs. hero infighting is that they're just doing it for the sake of doing it. The build up to Civil War and Avengers vs. X-Men is just poor.

Meanwhile the build up to Captain Atom's conflict with the League was done very well.

It was done as well as could be within about 2 episodes. In the end it boiled down to Eiling pulling rank on Capt. Atom to get him to fight Superman, which he did, and he lost.

Yeah, Marvel's hero vs. hero events are always lousy and just showcase what jerks Marvel heroes are. Seriously, why haven't the villains gotten their **** together and taken over during all those versus brawls? I hate to sound like Mark Miller, but, dude, seriously. Dr. Doom once literally had an "emotion charger" which was basically a "make every villain I aim this at attack one thing" ray.

Yes, I do want Captain Atom there for the two reasons that Captain Atom is a long standing JLI cast member and to give the United States specific representation in the JLI (just like how he was in the previous incarnation).

As for heroes that are representing their homelands/factions as much as Captain Atom would: Batman (specifically representing the interests of the Justice League), Rocket Red (member of Russia's Rocket Red Brigade, a part of the Russian Ground Forces in the military), August General in Iron (a member of the People's Liberation Army and Great Ten which was also controlled by the Chinese government), Guy Gardner (representing the Green Lantern Corps and the interests they have on Earth as a whole), and Fire (once a part of Brazil's National Information Service and Brazilian Intelligence Agency). So right there you have 5 out of 9 members that serve specific interests.

While Booster Gold and Ice have no specific ties to a government, it hasn't been explained if Vixen and Lady Godiva do or do not. Although Zambesi and the United Kingdom were very pleased that they were put on the team.

I simply see any 10th member as being too much for the book to bare. I also don't dismiss Booster, Batman, and Guy as being American superheroes as much as you do.

Books can thrive with large rosters if the writer has the talent to do so. Some of the best Justice League eras (Conway's Satellite Era, Giffen and DeMatteis' International Era, Morrison's JLA Era) were the ones that had large rosters.

The books that fail are far greater to count. Even in some of those, certain characters just fade into background scenery and I sort of hate that on a team book. Let ME pick who is the favored character, don't spoon feed me 2 people and leave the rest to punch stuff.

Smoke and mirrors, Dread: I ask for lots of informational help from the rest of the staff. My Marvel Universe ends sometime before Vulcan appeared.

Yikes! My illusions are ruined!

I really think these avengers annuals are the worst comics I have ever read , or have been produced.

Even if you accept the ridiculous plot..simon was drawn like an utter unimaginable lunatic in every panel.

so much is out of continuity it's not even funny...I'd say text book bendis, but really he has never even been THIS bad.

I agree with everything you've said.

Not only does Bendis get everything wrong, but he does perma-damage to a decent blend of c-list heroes who could have been interesting... especially Atlas who was the biggest name here..and really quite a good character.

You forgot to lump in his treatment of Force Works Century..who could fit into the WC hate. (bendis is also guilty of showing Dr. Demonicus kicking in doors with pistols)

It is very weird that he treats Dr. Demonicus as a standard costumed thug when he's basically a mad scientist type who makes monsters (or empowers other villains).

This treatment of characters for a simplistic and crude story overall is why I grew wary and weary of Bendis on Avengers, and why I'll be glad he's gone. There were times I genuinely thought he'd never leave.

 

[BoredGuy]

Yikes,
You guys really enjoy typing/arguing
...should become legal aides or something

 

[moraldeficiency]

I just caught up on a few things.

Avengers Annual vs. Revengers. Pretty much what you'd expect. I did have a few comments. Firstly I don't think that was actually wonderman, I think it was someone else messing with them. Wouldn't be the first fakeout Bendis has done. Secondly Ethan Edwards basically idolized Peter Parker so what's up with him fighting them? Also how did he get owned so quickly? If this happened before Siege and therefore before Spider-Island how the hell was Brock out of jail for that? What's the deal with Atlas being all villainous. Last I remember seeing him he was dead and saved the world. Also if the avengers would let daredevil in why not atlas, he's not nearly been as villainous as daredevil.

ASM. I got it cause it was a no Spider-Man issue. It was a great fight. My only issue is Slott is just getting worse and worse with his dialogue. What the hell man.

FF 601. Loved it. I loved the Thing really showing his power level as someone hulk caliber. When did the annihilation wave get so small and when did the kree armada get so big though?

 

[moraldeficiency]

Yikes,
You guys really enjoy typing/arguing
...should become legal aides or something

Yes the internet is no place for arguing people.

 

[runawayboulder]

Dread, Hippie Hunter and JH all love to type.....

 

[hippie_hunter]

There was a DAMN LOT of " Justice League related advertising and merchandising" for a mere HALF DECADE PERIOD. That's ages in the modern era. That's longer than one Presidential term.

Yeah, there was a lot of Justice League related advertising, but that still doesn't mean that DC or Warner Bros. treated John as the main Green Lantern.

Right, so Godiva represents Britain specifically and Ice represents the rest of Europe in general. Still, I don't see you arguing Ice isn't representative enough as you were for Batman or Guy Gardner. By that logic, Booster vaguely representing the continent of North America (which includes Canada, the U.S.A., and Mexico) makes them equals. There're a lot of countries in "Europe" after all.

Ice works for representing Europe as a whole due to the increasing amounts of integration within the continent. Europe nowadays is considered to be one big gigantic economy, share common interests in the geopolitical theater, and are becoming more and more culturally integrated due to the freedom of the movement of peoples.

However, the UK often goes against the interests of continental Europe. Britain is very Eurosceptic as a culture.

Which makes zero sense since his universe interacted with other facets of the DCU which are NOT exactly the same.

Very true, but DC nor the writers wanted to get rid of successful elements in the previous continuity (Batman and Green Lantern)

There has been little mention of it sense the shift.

DC has confirmed that Barbara's tenure as Oracle still happened.

Barbara didn't want a "cure" that was beyond the realm of normal, non-superhero connected humans and she didn't see it as a handicap.

It was DC's reason for not having her be Batgirl. For why she used her mind and skills to succeed instead of her body (unless she had to, and she could still kick ass from a wheelchair without the sorts of gadgets that Quincy Harker used to have).

Still insulting to the character. She didn't need to be Batgirl to show that she was a strong woman, but the wheelchair was ridiculous considering that Damian got a new freaking spine!

Simone clearly is operating under strict editorial guideline. The almighty Morrison can do what he wants, but I'll believe it when Cain and Brown show up elsewhere then a comic that was coming out regardless of the New 52 like Leviathan was.

The reason why they haven't shown up yet is to reestablish Barbara as Batgirl. But Gail Simone has come out saying that she will use them in the future and acknowledge their tenures as Batgirl and James Robinson has said that Stephanie Brown will be returning as the Spoiler.

I simply see any 10th member as being too much for the book to bare. I also don't dismiss Booster, Batman, and Guy as being American superheroes as much as you do.

Booster is automatically dismissed considering that he's now Canadian.

 

[THANOSRULES]

I just caught up on a few things.

Avengers Annual vs. Revengers. Pretty much what you'd expect. I did have a few comments. Firstly I don't think that was actually wonderman, I think it was someone else messing with them. Wouldn't be the first fakeout Bendis has done. Secondly Ethan Edwards basically idolized Peter Parker so what's up with him fighting them? Also how did he get owned so quickly? If this happened before Siege and therefore before Spider-Island how the hell was Brock out of jail for that? What's the deal with Atlas being all villainous. Last I remember seeing him he was dead and saved the world. Also if the avengers would let daredevil in why not atlas, he's not nearly been as villainous as daredevil.

ASM. I got it cause it was a no Spider-Man issue. It was a great fight. My only issue is Slott is just getting worse and worse with his dialogue. What the hell man.

FF 601. Loved it. I loved the Thing really showing his power level as someone hulk caliber. When did the annihilation wave get so small and when did the kree armada get so big though?

Atlas was a villian for over 30 years our time. As power man 1 he fought the avengers numerous times probably committed hundreds of crimes. Then he was Goliath after Luke Cage kicked his butt. He was a member of several masters of evil.

I remember one of his last outings as a villain occured in AWC where he fought Clint Barton as Goliath for that mantle and got his butt kicked again.

Really Atlas is awesome , but he has no business fitting in as an Avenger.

He just deserved better writing.

To Bendis credit, maybe even Busiek's view of atlas was the strong break with continuity and Bendis more or less is writing him as he was last seen fighting Barton in AWC.

But I don't think ill give Bendis that credit...he just needed throwaway characters.

 

[moraldeficiency]

Atlas was a villian for over 30 years our time. As power man 1 he fought the avengers numerous times probably committed hundreds of crimes. Then he was Goliath after Luke Cage kicked his butt. He was a member of several masters of evil.

I remember one of his last outings as a villain occured in AWC where he fought Clint Barton as Goliath for that mantle and got his butt kicked again.

Really Atlas is awesome , but he has no business fitting in as an Avenger.

He just deserved better writing.

To Bendis credit, maybe even Busiek's view of atlas was the strong break with continuity and Bendis more or less is writing him as he was last seen fighting Barton in AWC.

But I don't think ill give Bendis that credit...he just needed throwaway characters.

He was good as a thunderbolt. When he died (last time I saw him) he literally grew and sacrificed himself to cover a hole in the nexus or something that would have ended the world. That's like the ultimate diving on a grenade for everyone. He changed alot. Daredevil has still killed more people as a villain. Just saying avengers take reformed villains and atlas did reform in a big way. Vision, Hawkeye, even Wonderman. All reformed villains.

I'd agree with his use. Actually it was Ethan Edwards that was the most out of character which stuck out the most to me though.

 

[JewishHobbit]

Yeah, I agree that Ethan felt odd. Granted, there could be a reasoning with his people dying out but he wasn't exactly a Skrull sympathizer. He didn't even know he was a Skrull until a few years ago.