BREAKING NEWS: Russia invades Georgia

[lazur]

So what information are you basing this on? If we're puppets of the "western media" aren't you just going along with what your gov. is telling you on this? Russia has been building troops for an attack along the borders, restocking supplies and correcting lines for months now. That's fact, too many photos to deny it. So they were completely ready to invade on a moments notice, they also did it at a time when georgia had far less troop strength and the world was distracted by the olympics. You can't say that was all coincidence.

Not enough peacekeepers died to talk about genocide in any form and russia has killed at least 100 georgians to every dead russian (and that's being generous) along with decimating cities.

We do know about terrorism, it's all over the world. You shouldn't speak as if russia is the only country with problems, or with conflicts. And aren't you judging our reactions from the other side of the world as well? Give us something other than you "saying" stuff to show us your point. And is it possible, just possible, that you're the one believing in gov. lies?

First of all, I can't believe any westerner from the U.S. or elsewhere is actually arguing against someone from that region about the circumstances of how it all went down. You aren't there, you don't know.

Second, Georgia has been reported to have killed at least 2,000 civilians in Ossetia, prior to Russia's involvement. As I understand it, Ossetia is made up of primarily Russian citizens, and since both countries have interest in Ossetia, it only makes sense that Russia would intervene to stop the killing.

As someone who lives in the west and who isn't receiving updated or even accurate media on the situation, I can honestly say that I do not know enough about the situation to simply come to the conclusion that Russia is guilty for doing what it has done. But I would also suggest that unless you're there and have access to realtime reporting and media reports that are NOT biased toward the American culture (ie 'all war is unjust no matter what'), you know about as much as I do. Therefore, I will give Terrible Doll the benefit of the doubt. Whether or not anyone else does is of no importance to me, though I believe it's only fair.

 

[Kelly]

First of all, I can't believe any westerner from the U.S. or elsewhere is actually arguing against someone from that region about the circumstances of how it all went down. You aren't there, you don't know.

Second, Georgia has been reported to have killed at least 2,000 civilians in Ossetia, prior to Russia's involvement. As I understand it, Ossetia is made up of primarily Russian citizens, and since both countries have interest in Ossetia, it only makes sense that Russia would intervene to stop the killing.

As someone who lives in the west and who isn't receiving updated or even accurate media on the situation, I can honestly say that I do not know enough about the situation to simply come to the conclusion that Russia is guilty for doing what it has done. But I would also suggest that unless you're there and have access to realtime reporting and media reports that are NOT biased toward the American culture, you know about as much as I do. Therefore, I will give Terrible Doll the benefit of the doubt.

I'm not following what the media is saying......I'm following the actions taken by NATO, EU, WTO, and the G7 countries. I will venture to say that they have better information than any of us debating this issue.

 

[lazur]

I'm not following what the media is saying......I'm following the actions taken by NATO, EU, WTO, and the G7 countries. I will venture to say that they have better information than any of us debating this issue.

And what information is that, exactly?

 

[Terrible Doll]

Certainly, I cannot prove. Why I should? I not politics. I’m only comic artist. I know: Russia asked the help when Georgia attacked. Nobody reacted. Now we are guilty. I am surprised


My good friends live in Ossetia. We spoke by phone. I get mail. I have friends and relatives in Georgia. Nobody approves actions Saakashvili. Nobody tell about “100 georgians to every dead Russian” (What the numbers? Whence they have taken?)

“So they were completely ready to invade on a moments notice, they also did it at a time when georgia had far less troop strength and the world was distracted by the olympics. You can't say that was all coincidence.”
These are actions of Georgia. Not ours.

“You shouldn't speak as if russia is the only country with problems”
I did? Sorry I don’t mean it

“Give us something other than you "saying" stuff to show us your point.”
Ask the osset. They have

 

[Terrible Doll]

Therefore, I will give Terrible Doll the benefit of the doubt. Whether or not anyone else does is of no importance to me, though I believe it's only fair.

thank you
I know, each opinion is subjective. me too.
I do not want troubles. I do not want to offend anybody.
I only want to tell as it looks on the other side of the story. It is a pity if nobody has understood
But if you think of it it well

 

[moraldeficiency]

First of all, I can't believe any westerner from the U.S. or elsewhere is actually arguing against someone from that region about the circumstances of how it all went down. You aren't there, you don't know.

Second, Georgia has been reported to have killed at least 2,000 civilians in Ossetia, prior to Russia's involvement. As I understand it, Ossetia is made up of primarily Russian citizens, and since both countries have interest in Ossetia, it only makes sense that Russia would intervene to stop the killing.

As someone who lives in the west and who isn't receiving updated or even accurate media on the situation, I can honestly say that I do not know enough about the situation to simply come to the conclusion that Russia is guilty for doing what it has done. But I would also suggest that unless you're there and have access to realtime reporting and media reports that are NOT biased toward the American culture (ie 'all war is unjust no matter what'), you know about as much as I do. Therefore, I will give Terrible Doll the benefit of the doubt.

First of all I have every right to question where information is coming from. He's/She's in Moscow, not where the ****'s going down. If I'm being told I'm being lied too, that's fine wouldn't be the first time, but I'm not just going to take the word of someone that I've never met over the internet. I may be a drunken stoner, but I'm not an idiot. All I asked was for some source, is that unreasonable to you? Also does that apply the other way? Are Eastern Nations not allowed to say anything regarding what happens in the west cause they aren't there? That seems silly, we're all humans and basically the same. Our conflicts are the same and our crappy excuses are the same.

It was the peacekeeper deaths that spurred the attack not the killing of Georgian citizens. If that's russia's official position than that's the numbers I was using as comparison. You're wrong about Ossetia being made up of primarily russian citizens though, they simply have russian passports because russia gave it to them. Osstia is Georgian territory with Georgian citizens. They want independence, but so does Northern Ireland, yet england is still acting clinging about that.

You didn't really read what I wrote and you're implying a lot. I merely asked questions. I like questions, I like answers, I like research and news, it makes me less of a ******. I do get information from many sources, from the news to people to stratfor reports of troop placement. Don't assume you know about me, it makes you look silly. You give TerribleDoll the benefit of the doubt because he/she says stuff on the internet with no back up, hell you don't even know if he/she's really from russia at all, do you? I'm not saying he/she is a liar, I'm just not going to believe someone cause they tell me something. I question, you should try it sometime, give you a break from making random assumptions about people you don't even know.

And just so you don't make the same assumption again, while I'm currently a US citizen through immigration, I've lived in europe and traveled most of my life, so it's not just western **** I know about and have experienced.

 

[lazur]

First of all I have every right to question where information is coming from. He's/She's in Moscow, not where the ****'s going down. If I'm being told I'm being lied too, that's fine wouldn't be the first time, but I'm not just going to take the word of someone that I've never met over the internet. I may be a drunken stoner, but I'm not an idiot. All I asked was for some source, is that unreasonable to you? Also does that apply the other way? Are Eastern Nations not allowed to say anything regarding what happens in the west cause they aren't there? That seems silly, we're all humans and basically the same. Our conflicts are the same and our crappy excuses are the same.

No one is suggesting that you shouldn't question where the information is coming from. But you're reacting as if TD is lying to you, and other than the guy living in the region and being able to account for what's going on personally, I see no other means for him to satisfy your curiousity.

Imagine, if you will, a foreign country invading the US and killing 2,000 civilians. And then imagine if the world criticized the US for going into the offending country and cleaning house to stop more bloodshed. Meanwhile, some of your family members or friends are running for their lives and yet the media is trying to make you out to be the bad guys.

Right now, the only news coming out of the area is from those who are neck-deep in the ****, and yet you sit here and jump to pretty significant conclusions about Russia being guilty when you know nothing more than any of the rest of us about what's really going on.

I'm not saying Russia is innocent in all of this, but I'm also not ready to jump to the remarkable conclusion many in this thread have that Russia is guilty...

It was the peacekeeper deaths that spurred the attack not the killing of Georgian citizens.

That's what we've been told in the mainstream (read: western) media...

If that's russia's official position than that's the numbers I was using as comparison. You're wrong about Ossetia being made up of primarily russian citizens though, they simply have russian passports because russia gave it to them. Osstia is Georgian territory with Georgian citizens. They want independence, but so does Northern Ireland, yet england is still acting clinging about that.

I think that if Russia wanted to, they would have already toppled Georgia. Russia isn't like the US, and while I can't say that I agree with Russia's form of government, it is their country and they will exercise their power in ways that we may not agree with or understand, but given that they are a 'super power' it doesn't behoove any of us to make judgements based on their actions without having all of the information, and right now we have next to nothing *other* than what is being reported by those who already have misgivings about Russia and the Russian people.

You didn't really read what I wrote and you're implying a lot. I merely asked questions. I like questions, I like answers, I like research and news, it makes me less of a ******. I do get information from many sources, from the news to people to stratfor reports of troop placement. Don't assume you know about me, it makes you look silly. You give TerribleDoll the benefit of the doubt because he/she says stuff on the internet with no back up, hell you don't even know if he/she's really from russia at all, do you? I'm not saying he/she is a liar, I'm just not going to believe someone cause they tell me something. I question, you should try it sometime, give you a break from making random assumptions about people you don't even know.

You've made random assumptions about TD. Perhaps he is from Russia, perhaps he isn't. Point being, you know about as much about TD as you know about what's going on in Russia and Georgia right now. Just like the rest of us...

And just so you don't make the same assumption again, while I'm currently a US citizen through immigration, I've lived in europe and traveled most of my life, so it's not just western **** I know about and have experienced.

Have you ever lived in Russia or Georgia?

 

[Kelly]

And what information is that, exactly?

Well, the fact that they back the Georgian government, and the fact that they are meeting as we speak as to whether or not action should be taken against Russia....


That speaks alot to me.....



I can certainly understand where TD is coming from, but media can justify acts on both sides.....that is nothing new.

Just as when researching WW II, you can have 2 totally different looks at a battle, it just depends on if you are reading accounts from a French soldier, or a German soldier. They could be in the same battle, but have 2 totally different views.

Are we there, of course not, but the G7 countries, as well as NATO, have people on the ground there, so I think all sides are being looked at......and as far as discussion here, we all have a right to put our 2 cents in.

All MD asked for was some sources, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. "I live in Russia, and I have friends in Georgia...." is not a source, it is an opinion.

I'm not going to jump to any conclusion.

Hell when teaching of genocide in the Balkans, I take my students back to the Crusades. Pay back is a *****.....there are always 2 sides to the situation. So I will wait for the people that are on the ground assessing what has happened and go from there, but doesn't mean I can't have my own opinion on what I see and hear.

 

[lazur]

Well, the fact that they back the Georgian government, and the fact that they are meeting as we speak as to whether or not action should be taken against Russia....

That speaks alot to me.....

Of course they back the Georgian government - it's a 'democracy.'

I can certainly understand where TD is coming from, but media can justify acts on both sides.....that is nothing new.

Then read some media from over there: http://en.rian.ru/russia/20080813/116011291.html

Just as when researching WW II, you can have 2 totally different looks at a battle, it just depends on if you are reading accounts from a French soldier, or a German soldier. They could be in the same battle, but have 2 totally different views.

True, but facts are facts and it was universally understood that the Germans were at fault during WWII, and considering the blatant, clearly visible atrocities committed in WWII, there wasn't much room for interpretation...

This situation, at least in my opinion, isn't as clearly definable. We simply do not know enough yet.

Are we there, of course not, but the G7 countries, as well as NATO, have people on the ground there, so I think all sides are being looked at......and as far as discussion here, we all have a right to put our 2 cents in.

Of course we can put our two cents in. I'm simply asking for objectivity. Problem is, the media is reporting that Russia attacked without provocation, and as far as I can tell that's just absolutely false. But again, I'll wait until ALL of the information is revealed before assuming anything...

All MD asked for was some sources, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. "I live in Russia, and I have friends in Georgia...." is not a source, it is an opinion.

True, but the Russian media is fairly closed off. Look at the link above and do your own research on the matter instead of simply playing the 'give me links or you're credibility is in question' card. You have Google. Look it up yourself.

I'm not going to jump to any conclusion.

Hell when teaching of genocide in the Balkans, I take my students back to the Crusades. Pay back is a *****.....there are always 2 sides to the situation. So I will wait for the people that are on the ground assessing what has happened and go from there, but doesn't mean I can't have my own opinion on what I see and hear.

Agreed.

 

[moraldeficiency]

No one is suggesting that you shouldn't question where the information is coming from. But you're reacting as if TD is lying to you, and other than the guy living in the region and being able to account for what's going on personally, I see no other means for him to satisfy your curiousity.

Yes you are, you just did exactely that. I merely asked questions and asked it it was possible that Doll was the one getting propaganda. Russia isn't exactely the land of free media. I'm sure if I went to Iraq and asked 100 Iraqi's what's going on, I'd get 100 different subjective answers.

Imagine, if you will, a foreign country invading the US and killing 2,000 civilians. And then imagine if the world criticized the US for going into the offending country and cleaning house to stop more bloodshed. Meanwhile, some of your family members or friends are running for their lives and yet the media is trying to make you out to be the bad guys.

Again, your analogy is wrong. They weren't russian citizens, they were georgian. The US will be criticized for any action regardless of what happens. That's politics, someone always has a problem. Look I was at Iraq as one of those bad guys, sure people "support the troops" on bumperstickers and on CNN, but that's were it stops. I remember telling people and getting that **** you look right here in the good old US so I can imagine what the foreign media thought about the whole thing. And that was the first conflict, you know the justified one. My family have been fighting and dying for generations due to civil conflicts, a big reason I got the **** out of the country actually, so I don't have to imagine much on that end.

Right now, the only news coming out of the area is from those who are neck-deep in the ****, and yet you sit here and jump to pretty significant conclusions about Russia being guilty when you know nothing more than any of the rest of us about what's really going on.

There's more than just reporters to get information from. I've got some friends in Russia, and I've got the reports on troop placements as well (anyone can get those). I didn't jump to conclusions no matter how badly you want to jam words in my mouth (you'll have to at least buy me dinner first), I QUESTIONED the veracity of someone in russia that only gets the information the russian gov. allows them to see. I questioned whether Doll was the one getting lied to and manipulated by a gov. controled and regulated media. Do you see the difference in that? I've made no conclusions, just stated my thoughts on probabilities and asked some questions. I haven't acted like anything other than someone curious and not ready to believe anything they read on the internet from some random person. Sorry I'm not more gullible for you, I'll work on that.

I'm not saying Russia is innocent in all of this, but I'm also not ready to jump to the remarkable conclusion many in this thread have that Russia is guilty...


That's what we've been told in the mainstream (read: western) media...

I think it's probably given the information I have, russia's troop placement and actions along with timing. But that's my opinion, I get to have one. If I'm proven wrong, I've got no problem with that and apologizing but I've come to no conclusion. That's why I asked questions instead of unquestioningly believing someone random over the internet over my personal thoughts, discussions with russian friends, what's been reported so far and what I already knew.

I think that if Russia wanted to, they would have already toppled Georgia. Russia isn't like the US, and while I can't say that I agree with Russia's form of government, it is their country and they will exercise their power in ways that we may not agree with or understand, but given that they are a 'super power' it doesn't behoove any of us to make judgements based on their actions without having all of the information, and right now we have next to nothing *other* than what is being reported by those who already have misgivings about Russia and the Russian people.

They just toppled Georgia. It's done, they wrecked them as a country. They don't want to have to occupy and rebuild them now, but they've flexed their muscles and most of us got the message. That all mainstream media thing is bull. There are a billion media sources reporting on this not all of them western.

No judgements, but are we allowed to have thoughts and talk about it, maybe even question a bit? I know you don't like that idea, but I'm big of free speech (ask anyone) and not getting played for a sap.

You've made random assumptions about TD. Perhaps he is from Russia, perhaps he isn't. Point being, you know about as much about TD as you know about what's going on in Russia and Georgia right now. Just like the rest of us...

Have you ever lived in Russia or Georgia?

No, I've asked questions. Go back and read what was actually written cause you're just making stuff up now. And I know a crap load more about russia (cause it's a country you can go to, and research and such) than I do about someone I've never met on the internet. So do you. For example I know russia is called russia while I don't know what doll's name is? See how that logic falls apart right from the start.

I lived in St. Pete for two months in my friend's apartment. The buildings are amazing and I cannot say enough about how amazingly hot their women are but it got to ****ing cold. Never been to georgia. What about you?

 

[moraldeficiency]

True, but facts are facts and it was universally understood that the Germans were at fault during WWII, and considering the blatant, clearly visible atrocities committed in WWII, there wasn't much room for interpretation...

Well that's a little hazy. The german's were in serious recession due to the restrictions place on them after WW1. Hitler used the treaty of versialles as a rallying point to gain power, implicating the jews in it as well.

The US and England allowed pearl harbor to happen without warning to get the US involved in the war. The US also segrated based solely on race and while our concentration camps didn't gas, they did exist.

USSR, an ally in the war, commited greater atrocities and cause more death to it's own people than the germans ever did.

So you could say that Britan and France made the war possible through vindictiveness, the US was complict in the deaths of its own soldiers to force citizens into the war and followed the german example of concentration camps. And russia was even more evil than the germans but were allies of the "good" guys during the war. Now that's leaving out the atom bombing of towns entirely, but I can see Kel's point that there are gray areas in most things even if you don't see or choose to recognize them.

 

[The Lizard]

USSR, an ally in the war, commited greater atrocities and cause more death to it's own people than the germans ever did.

This is one of the reasons I'm still looking a bit sideways at some of the claims that Terrible Doll is making. True, he does have a different perspective from those of us in the US, but remember, he came into this thread making the following claim:

We always helped our neighbors! We were never aggressive to anybody! Never! Learn a history, people! We not aggressors! We protect the rights and the territories and the citizens!

That would be like me coming into this thread and saying that I knew for a fact that Georgia was right because the US backs Georgia and the US has NEVER backed any countries with imperialist or genocidal motives.

 

[Terrible Doll]

ol! I the spy!
Lord! Of course, I’m NOT!
of course, you don't know me. And I do not know you, too. You may not trust. As you wish.
I shall not tell my biography here.
But that link to tell the truth. I really regret about a situation. We have mourning today. Sorry
I do not see sense to justify it further. I have told already that I wanted
If you have any question you may send Message to me.


To Lizard. Yeah, I was so emotional! All of us are emotional, now

 

[hippie_hunter]

Europe watched three days as Georgia did a genocide in Ossetia.

Georgia did not commit genocide. Russia didn't either.

Most of the damage in South Ossetia was done around the government center in Tskhinvali. There is very little evidence that supports Russia's claims that Georgia targeted South Ossetian civilians.

Russia

wanted to call to European Union. But nobody has made decisions.
Why anybody did nothing? Only Russia did! And Russia gets accused! Nonsense
Your logic very odd to me.

The logic is not odd at all. It's becoming more and more apparent that Russia was the blatant aggressor here and heavily exaggerated on Georgia's atrocities.

We do not want to dominate. We want to live.

Your government acts like it wants to dominate.

The Georgian authorities have made everything that foreign journalists did not doubt in "aggressions of Russia”.

You trust lie!

Sounds more like your trusting lies because the foreign media has been very balanced in showing this. They showed that Georgia went too far in their aggression against South Ossetia. But they also showed that Russia went too far as well. However, the evidence is showing more and more that Russia is in the wrong here.

Russia

have lost for information war. Russia is justified for actions what Russia did not make and all world supports the real aggressor

Russia has not justified its actions, just like how the United States has not justified its actions in Iraq.

You do not trust me.

You tell about Russian propaganda campaign. But for your logic, why you trust the media? Nonsense, again.
You live on the other end of the world. And you speak it so as if were here and saw it!
To judge from the other side it is much easier. Nobody threatens you.
You do not know about terrorism by caucasus in territory of Russia. You do not know about a mass genocide.

We don't trust what your saying is because you sound like your just listening to Russian news sources which are dominated by the Russian government. Most of the terrorism in the Caucasus are done by the Chechens which is a part of Russia. There is no evidence at all of mass genocide.

“your country ended its military action because it completely annihilated Georgia”

Sounds more like a anti-Russian propaganda campaign
We didn’t. Events have been exaggerated. Our armies are deduced from Georgia.

No its fact. Georgia got its ass kicked by Russia.

 

[The Lizard]

To Lizard. Yeah, I was so emotional! All of us are emotional, now

Ah -- it's your country, so it's understandable. Actually if you go look at my first posts in this thread, I'm one of the first ones who started questioning Georgia's initial actions in the first place.


I will agree that Georgia made a big mistake and deserved some retribution based on the claim that they killed Russian peacekeepers and were getting too aggressive in South Ossetia.

What remains to be seen is if Putin's response was justified, or if he's guilty of pulling something similar to the US invading Iraq after we had already invaded Afghanistan.

 

[Kelly]

Ah -- it's your country, so it's understandable. Actually if you go look at my first posts in this thread, I'm one of the first ones who started questioning Georgia's initial actions in the first place.


I will agree that Georgia made a big mistake and deserved some retribution based on the claim that they killed Russian peacekeepers and were getting too aggressive in South Ossetia.

What remains to be seen is if Putin's response was justified, or if he's guilty of pulling something similar to the US invading Iraq after we had already invaded Afghanistan.

Exactly, I'm not saying that Georgia is totally innocent in this.....NOR is the US above ANYONE in this area......

 

[Ancracks]

I suspect a tiny bit of subjective personal bias may exist in that post.

Well, yeah, 'cause I'm an American, but also Arab, so they pretty much screwed me both ways.

 

[Ancracks]

That's awesome, you're like the russian rush limbaugh.

Not that was uncalled for, I can't be Rush Limbaugh, I'm sober

 

[Marx]

Russia to US: Choose us or Georgia
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/08/13/us.russia.diplomacy/index.html





(Now this is just working out brilliantly! )

 

[Kelly]

Good Lord......

 

[Angel_Faerie]

Russia to US: Choose us or Georgia
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/08/13/us.russia.diplomacy/index.html





(Now this is just working out brilliantly! )

****...here comes another Cold War...

 

[jaguarr]

Russia to US: Choose us or Georgia
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/08/13/us.russia.diplomacy/index.html





(Now this is just working out brilliantly! )

Good Lord......

Putin is the worst...boyfriend...ever! Poor Dubya...look at the love triangle he's created for himself.

jag

 

[ObakeTora]

ol! I the spy!
Lord! Of course, I’m NOT!
of course, you don't know me. And I do not know you, too. You may not trust. As you wish.
I shall not tell my biography here.
But that link to tell the truth. I really regret about a situation. We have mourning today. Sorry
I do not see sense to justify it further. I have told already that I wanted
If you have any question you may send Message to me.


To Lizard. Yeah, I was so emotional! All of us are emotional, now

If your a spy then why are you in a comic book forum. And question 2 is your company hiring, cuz I need a job! They aint no mo work at the post office anymore.....


[edit]



frikin war, I was planning a trip to St. petersburg, always wanted to see where Dostoyevsky wrote C&P. I was gonna go to Nevsky Prospekt. **** it.

 

[Kelly]

True, but the Russian media is fairly closed off. Look at the link above and do your own research on the matter instead of simply playing the 'give me links or you're credibility is in question' card. You have Google. Look it up yourself.

Research has never been my problem Lazur, and most around here know that. It is also known, that I ask for sources ALOT. It helps me learn as well.....

So theres no need to be a jerk about it.......

 

[Symbiotic]

Russia to US: Choose us or Georgia
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/08/13/us.russia.diplomacy/index.html





(Now this is just working out brilliantly! )

*repeated head-desking*