Capitalism Discussion Thread

[BillyZaned]

Haven't scene one of these yet, and that god I'm not in the 1960s, otherwise this wonderful land of freedom, would have me arrested for speaking for equal rights, healthcare for all... and people not living a flase hope of "riches", that is clearly a scheme by the top 1% to get us to work harder for them, to make them more money...

I mean, look at this... I bought my condo, and if I live there for 30 years, I would have paid the bank, 250,000 more then what it's worth, and that's on a 5.75% fixed interest rate....

Look at healthcare, our system right now wants us to get sick... these insurance companies want us to pay high premiums, high deductables, only for them to then deny us coverage in the end...

I know so many people, who have had kids, then when their kids have health problems, they end up going bankrupt in order to save their childrens lives? Is this what our founding fathers wanted?

All these government people, who are against a public option are hypocrites... do some research on their government paid health care... it's the best in the world.... but us, who pay for that, want some of it.... no no no... we can't... why? Because the people who give them campaign dollars run these companies,.... why put them out of business.... where would they get their campaign fund from then?

I'm all for Democracy, but what we are living in is not democracy.... we live within a pyramid scheme, that is putting us all in debt, and making this top tier more money....

Captialism, is EVIL... it is... it's a concept built around puting $ on every aspect of life... we've all heard the term that money is the route of evil... but our country is run by the dollar bill.... and right now, we all know this to be true, our system is FAILING, but us as Americans have this false notion that we know best, we are the best... blah blah blah... it needs to change,...

Look at what Captialism has done to our enviroment... Global Warming is real people... there is no god deciding when our world will end... Jesus isn't coming to save us, and smite the non-beleivers... the ozone layer will depleat, radiation will destroy the trees, melt the icecaps, and kill all our wildlife... we have a chance to stop it, but with the greed on capital hill, they won't do anything to stop it... why, because of money.... but what good is money, when there is no one left alive, and the earth looks like mars? Rome fell, not by intruders... but because of themselves... America is the new Roman Empire, and to me, we are issueing the same mistakes... putting our faith in leaders, instead of learning the facts ourselves, and stopping a spreading evil that basically taken control of the this country.

This economic diasaster was caused by American corporate greed... but what is the response, instead of these companies taking responsibilty... we BAIL THEM OUT.... to me, this is like a 16 year racing and crashing his car, only for the parents to laugh at them, then buy them a new, faster one.... most of us would call them bad parents.... but, to the government, they would say that kid deserves a bail out.... and that's what this is, bad parenting... bad decissions..... sure, things will get better.... but it will be a false economy, based on debt, credit, and money we don't have... we will fall on face again... and there's chance, we might not get up...

I'm not saying death to America, at the core, we have solid foundation set forth by the founders of this country.... we need to re-establish that... get rid of this greedy captialistic society, and actually start caring for one another.... we only get one life, one shot... and that goes for everyone... lets actually not be hypocrites anymore, telling our children to treat people they way they want to be treated, because face it.... none of us "adults" follow that rule...

 

[Paradoxium]

What capitalism?

 

[BillyZaned]

uh, oh, typed the i to late....

how do you fix the thread title?

 

[Paradoxium]

Just message a mod about it. Like Marx (who is usually around).

 

[The Overlord]

What capitalism?

Well it depends, some say there is an idealized version of capitalism and harsher version that exists in the real world.

I'm not one for moral absolutes, I don't capitalism is good or evil, I think it can good or evil depending on how it is used.

However I don't trust any organization completely be it public or private, if I don't trust the government completely, why I should I trust corporations completely? I think its best to divide the powers evenly between public and private, so no one group becomes too powerful.

 

[Paradoxium]

No one said anything about trusting the corporation. If they are **** ups they go bankrupt (which doesn't really happen nowadays with the bailouts - which is called corporatism). When politician or public sector **** up it's called "electable" and a "payraise".

 

[BillyZaned]

Well it depends, some say there is an idealized version of capitalism and harsher version that exists in the real world.

I'm not one for moral absolutes, I don't capitalism is good or evil, I think it can good or evil depending on how it is used.

However I don't trust any organization completely be it public or private, if I don't trust the government completely, why I should I trust corporations completely? I think its best to divide the powers evenly between public and private, so no one group becomes too powerful.

the corporations control it all....

do some research as far as wealth distrabution goes......

the ratio of earnings for a CEO to his worker.... 550 to 1 over there lifetime...

so everytime a CEO's worker earns just 1 dollar, he has made 550?
After FDR, it was 40 to 1.....

Reagan, Bush... they changed the landscape to favor this .... and right Obama isn't doing a thing to fix ANYTHING.... Goldman Sachs.... look at his relationship with them, and the 12 Billion the government gave to them....

 

[BillyZaned]

Well it depends, some say there is an idealized version of capitalism and harsher version that exists in the real world.

I'm not one for moral absolutes, I don't capitalism is good or evil, I think it can good or evil depending on how it is used.

However I don't trust any organization completely be it public or private, if I don't trust the government completely, why I should I trust corporations completely? I think its best to divide the powers evenly between public and private, so no one group becomes too powerful.

capitalism it routed in the belief that one out of every one hundred, makes more money then those 99 combined.... that is the way it is run today....

1/5 of our economy is based on people getting ill.....

 

[The Overlord]

No one said anything about trusting the corporation. If they are **** ups they go bankrupt (which doesn't really happen nowadays with the bailouts - which is called corporatism). When politician or public sector **** up it's called "electable" and a "payraise".

Except they don't bankrupt, that's the point.

Yes in theory only good corporations make money and bad ones fail, but that's not the case in practice. You can succeed through cheating, through corrupt means and using marketing

You are giving the consumer far too much credit, a lot of consumers are idiots and will support bad corporations no matter what.

People have known that Nike uses sweat shop labor that supports third world dictatorships for a while now, but did everyone stop Nike shoes? No, because they are too busy thinking they look cool in their new Nike shoes to care about the fact they are spending a hundred bucks on shoes that cost 2 bucks to make and was made by a 10 year in Asia.

That's why the idealized version of capitalism doesn't exist in the real world, it assumes humans are completely rational actors, they are not. It doesn't factor in human stupidity or take into account the fact that greed often makes people irrational, not rational.

the corporations control it all....

do some research as far as wealth distrabution goes......

the ratio of earnings for a CEO to his worker.... 550 to 1 over there lifetime...

so everytime a CEO's worker earns just 1 dollar, he has made 550?
After FDR, it was 40 to 1.....

Reagan, Bush... they changed the landscape to favor this .... and right Obama isn't doing a thing to fix ANYTHING.... Goldman Sachs.... look at his relationship with them, and the 12 Billion the government gave to them....

That doesn't make all corporations bad though, Ben and Jerry's donates money to environmental causes, for example.

Corporations in of themselves are not bad, they can be good or they can be bad. It depends on who runs it.

 

[BillyZaned]

We self inflict are wounds... we really do... we buy from Wal-Mart, knowing the history of them, what they are doing to smallers business's, and how they treat their work force.... BUT, we need to save 50 cents on a gallon of milk.... or buy cerial for 20 cents less.... we know it's wrong... BUT MONEY MONEY MONEY.... it's all about that....

 

[Paradoxium]

Corporatism is not capitalism. It's a "takes two to dance" kind of thing.

I have been making the case the flaw of capitalism is it assumes people are rational though. But then again the alternative economic system as I see it, are far worse.

This whole mess starts with the monetary system. You simple could not have banks grow as big as they did, get the cheap credits they do, get the bailouts, not without the insanity called the Fractional Reserve system. There is nothing capitalistic about the current monetary system.

 

[BillyZaned]

Corporatism is not capitalism. It's a "takes two to dance" kind of thing.

I have been making the case the flaw of capitalism is it assumes people are rational though. But then again the alternative economic system as I see it, are far worse.

This whole mess starts with the monetary system. You simple could not have banks grow as big as they did, get the cheap credits they do, get the bailouts, not without the insanity called the Fractional Reserve system. There is nothing capitalistic about the current monetary system.

it's unregulated captialism.... it's 100% capitalism....

you seem to take a notion, that when FDR and others were running the show, that was true, or closer to true capitalism... NO, it was regulated, so that the wealth would be better transferred back to the middle class.....

unregulated Capitalism is what Bush was doing.... and what Sarah Palin touts as fact.... and look what it did....

 

[Paradoxium]

Are you kidding me man? The current monetary system is basically regulation since 1913. There is a reason why they call it "artificial" interest rates.

 

[BillyZaned]

Are you kidding me man? The current monetary system is basically regulation since 1913. There is a reason why they call it "artificial" interest rates.

regulation? what regulation are you talking about? Not much today.... less government, more business control?

 

[Paradoxium]

Where do you think these giant banks got their money from to lend around like cheap ****es?

 

[BillyZaned]

Where do you think these giant banks got their money from to lend around like cheap ****es?

from us... due to unregulated business practices, and the government (which is our money anyways).... we are basically loaning ourself our own money, at an interest rate that pays back the bank to loan more of our own money out to people....

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

But weren't alot of the regulations set up after the Great Depression repealed in the last two decades by Clinton and Bush?

 

[The Overlord]

Corporatism is not capitalism. It's a "takes two to dance" kind of thing.

Perhaps, but your ideal of capitalism is just that, an ideal.

In theory Communism works, that's not case in practice, because it doesn't take into account the flaws of human nature, which an idealized version of capitalism seems to ignore as well.

I have been making the case the flaw of capitalism is it assumes people are rational though. But then again the alternative economic system as I see it, are far worse.

Likely true, but it depends on what you consider alternative economic system. North Korea is screwed up beyond belief and even lesser cases like Cuba and Venezuela are pretty messed up economically. However places like Sweden seem alright.

This whole mess starts with the monetary system. You simple could not have banks grow as big as they did, get the cheap credits they do, get the bailouts, not without the insanity called the Fractional Reserve system. There is nothing capitalistic about the current monetary system.

Depends if you belief in an idealized or cynical version of capitalism, in theory this would not be capitalism, but you believe capitalism is a cynical system rather then an idealized one, all this would be okay, because these corporations made money and stayed in business and that's all that matters.

The socialists you decry believe that capitalism is corporatism and the ideal capitalism is myth and that the government is set up to ensure the same businesses succeed.

So whether corporatism is capitalism depends on one's point of view, not I completely with the socialists either, I don't believe in their idealism, just like I don't believe in your's.

We self inflict are wounds... we really do... we buy from Wal-Mart, knowing the history of them, what they are doing to smallers business's, and how they treat their work force.... BUT, we need to save 50 cents on a gallon of milk.... or buy cerial for 20 cents less.... we know it's wrong... BUT MONEY MONEY MONEY.... it's all about that....

But who do you trust instead? The government? Unions? Ha! They are all corrupt as well. Corporations are going to have exist in some form, because you wouldn't want the government to control the entire economy, that's not the type of power and burden one entity should have.

 

[BillyZaned]

But who do trust instead? The government? Unions? Ha! They are all corrupt as well.

See that's the problem... we have put ourself in a bind..... lesser evil way of living.... why not start a new option... a true democracy, where everyone who wants, has a say.....

right now, he don't have a say... we voted for Obama, but where's the change? Where is it? And now, what can we do? Sure, they say we have a voice, but we really don't...

right now, 75% of America is for a Public Option Health Care.... but no politicain will listen, or cares.... even though we want it...

same goes for Iraq.... over 60% wanted out of there.... but Bush never listened... and Obama isn't.... we have no voice...

 

[Paradoxium]

from us... due to unregulated business practices, and the government (which is our money anyways).... we are basically loaning ourself our own money, at an interest rate that pays back the bank to loan more of our own money out to people....

No not really. Please look up the topic of "Fractional Reserve Banking".

The cliff notes answer to THAT question. It comes from the Federal Reserve, on debt bought by mostly foreigners. The reason why they got so much credit is because they (fake) low the interest rate, making it easier for big banks to take large sums (which also involves leveraging) to repay back. This is what I mean by cheap credit.

This also inadvertently drives normal investors from Tbills and CDs, which forces them to gamble more in the stock markets. Jon Stewart blasted Greenspan on this, watch that interview.

If it floated to market, interest would be much higher. Thus significantly less of that securitized mortgages debacle. If it weren't Fractional (most capitalists against Fractional to begin with), either a full reserve or gold (or silver) backed currency, most banks would not be this big just by virtue of the natural money supply constraints.

 

[Paradoxium]

Perhaps, but your ideal of capitalism is just that, an ideal.

In theory Communism works, that's not case in practice, because it doesn't take into account the flaws of human nature, which an idealized version of capitalism seems to ignore as well.



Likely true, but it depends on what you consider alternative economic system. North Korea is screwed up beyond belief and even lesser cases like Cuba and Venezuela are pretty messed up economically. However places like Sweden seem alright.




Depends if you belief in an idealized or cynical version of capitalism, in theory this would not be capitalism, but you believe capitalism is a cynical system rather then an idealized one, all this would be okay, because these corporations made money and stayed in business and that's all that matters.

The socialists you decry believe that capitalism is corporatism and the ideal capitalism is myth and that the government is set up to ensure the same businesses succeed.

So whether corporatism is capitalism depends on one's point of view, not I completely with the socialists either, I don't believe in their idealism, just like I don't believe in your's.



But who do you trust instead? The government? Unions? Ha! They are all corrupt as well. Corporations are going to have exist in some form, because you wouldn't want the government to control the entire economy, that's not the type of power and burden one entity should have.

What ideal? I have criticized capitalism before. But my problems with it, tend to be different from what the Progressives may have issues with. Some issues are simply are no rectifiable in any system. The general theme is, as long as a human is in charge, they flaws goes of that human goes in hand with that system. The best case scenario is to cull something with the least flaws, not have a flawless utopian scenario. This is why Utopianists scare me more than anyone else.

 

[The Overlord]

See that's the problem... we have put ourself in a bind..... lesser evil way of living.... why not start a new option... a true democracy, where everyone who wants, has a say.....

Because that does not exist in the real world, there too many stupid people for that work. Its another false ideal.

right now, he don't have a say... we voted for Obama, but where's the change? Where is it? And now, what can we do? Sure, they say we have a voice, but we really don't...

Anyone who believed Obama was going to change everything, was hopeless naive, of course not everything was going to change! Obama is human, with human flaws, there was no way he could met the idealism he created.

right now, 75% of America is for a Public Option Health Care.... but no politicain will listen, or cares.... even though we want it...

same goes for Iraq.... over 60% wanted out of there.... but Bush never listened... and Obama isn't.... we have no voice...

Of course. These things are easy in theory, but to do them practice, that is far more difficult.

Hey that may not be fair, but sometimes, life sucks and you can't do anything about it.

What ideal? I have criticized capitalism before. But my problems with it, tend to be different from what the Progressives may have issues with. Some issues are simply are no rectifiable in any system. The general theme is, as long as a human is in charge, they flaws goes of that human goes in hand with that system. The best case scenario is to cull something with the least flaws, not have a flawless utopian scenario. This is why Utopianists scare me more than anyone else.

But you seem to subscribe to some naive belief that removing all regulations on corporations will make things better, which I believe is an unfeasible ideal.

We have laws that govern people, we have a police force, we don't just assume that people are going to police themselves, so why should corporations be any different? Why should there be enforcements on regular people and not corporations?

 

[BillyZaned]

^that's what the top 1% want you to think

 

[Paradoxium]

Money Creation


Credit Crisis Visualized

 

[The Overlord]

^that's what the top 1% want you to think

The bottom 99% can be just as corrupt and immoral as they are. Please don't treat me like I'm a brain washed pawn, if I were I wouldn't have criticized the corporations in this thread. I were a pawn, I wouldn't be this cynical. I just don't believe in your ideals, just like I don't believe in the idealized version of capitalism.