Catalonia & Spain?

[hopeless]

So you've heard about this?

 

[Hypestyle]

we'll see what happens. I hope that people are treated humanely, whatever the follow-up is.

 

[Silvermoth]

I don't know how they could not go independent after that brutal crackdown. It's weird though because they would probably just join the European Union together anyway

 

[hopeless]

It appears they didn't think this through properly.
Apparently someone else researched this properly and found out they needed to ask the King's permission before even attempting the referendum.
My mum's Spanish in case you're wondering where I heard about that so if true, boy they messed up!

 

[ludovica]

They fully understood that the referendum was illegal by the Spanish Constitution but that was more or less the point.
I see it as civil disobedience, if in the end they shall obtain a legitimate new referendum is the measure on which to judge their fight IMO.

 

[hopeless]

The jack booted response is not a good sign especially regarding the EU who still haven't learned the lesson Brexit demonstrated!

Wiser heads should have prevailed all this does is demonstrate Catalonia are right and it's Spain who should be learning we aren't stuck in the dark ages!

What happened to them?

It's really baffling to see this happen in Spain of all places!

I know they have problems but the idea they have politicians as bad as ours... well damn!

 

[Krystal]

All the central govt. had to do was declare ahead of time the results had no legal standing. Instead they acted in a violent, senseless manner that proved they weren't a modern democracy.

The people in Catalonia who were on the fence then shifted into the exit camp.

And asking a "King" for permission to exercise self determination -- when they would have gotten an instant "NO" -- laughable.

 

[ludovica]

All the central govt. had to do was declare ahead of time the results had no legal standing. Instead they acted in a violent, senseless manner that proved they weren't a modern democracy.

The people in Catalonia who were on the fence then shifted into the exit camp.

And asking a "King" for permission to exercise self determination -- when they would have gotten an instant "NO" -- laughable.

The goverment and the Supreme Court expressed exactly that beforehand. Multiple times.
That's why it is civil disobedience: the indipendentists proved exactly their point.
Now come the legal and institutional problems, that's why I think the final aim should be to get permission for a constitutionally legal referendum, but this requires changes to the Spanish Constitution.
There's a long road ahead.

 

[Krystal]

Fact is Spain will never allow the people of Catalonia to break away. They have their own culture, language and history but a larger nation simply will not let them go. They never will agree to any vote on the issue.

Catalonia wanted to show the world how they felt and wanted to see how the central govt. would react. Foolishly and surprisingly they resorted to violence. The EU could care less because the other nations with diverse regions -- France, Belgium, UK, Italy don't want their people getting ideas.

At least the UK had the decency to let Scotland vote and choose to make a strong pitch to the Scots as to why they should stay.

Spain has this FU attitude and a strong fascist past that really isn't completely dead. The people of Catalonia are imprisoned in Spain under any circumstance. They gave Catalonia a taste of what they can't expect if they were to formally announce leaving Spain. Martial law, batons, tear gas and old ladies bleeding from the head.

 

[ludovica]

You are not from Europe, right?
While I agree completely with you on the dangerous fascist undercurrents in Spanish institutions, saying Catalans are imprisoned in Spain is really reaching, even after the ugly repression we just witnessed.
The EU is not fond of secessionist movements, mostly for administrative reasons.
Catalonia is the first party interested in devising a lawful process that would permit them to separate from Spain without having to leave the EU and apply for re-admission: it would be disastrous otherwise.

Regarding the rest of Europe.
There are absolutely no legitimate claims in Italy for secession: whatever you may have read, probably was about Lega Nord, an openly racist party whose incumbent leader once called for sterilization of Romas and Sinti, their demands for "indipendence" are tied to this kind of project, rooted otherwise in historically racist motives towards south Italians.
On the other hand, the vast majority of South Tyrol people do not want to secede, it's heavely against their economic interests.

Belgium is also a really different kind of situation, with two equal and federated distinct regions and cultures.
Not to speak of France, where any indipendentist movement stems from regions which would not be economically sustainable on their own.

If you are on another continent I reckon it's difficult to grasp the shades from far away, but not every folk movement is truly aiming for indipendence (more towards federalism) or rooted in legitimate claims.

 

[Krystal]

I think I was right when I said EU doesn't want things to start down the road of states breaking up?
They were 99% quiet during the outrageous crackdown.

And Spain can stall and delay for the next 100 years by using the "constitutional process."

Was each of the Yugoslavian republics truly thought to be viable as a separate nation? But here we are with 7 new nations where one existed before. Is Slovakia really better off separated from Czechia? -- but they chose to go that way.

I realize Corsica isn't a viable nation, but the people there could be emboldened by Catalonia breaking away despite their better judgement. Are you saying Catalonia is the only viable candidate for secession in Europe?

 

[ludovica]

Yes-ish.
It's a complicated matter: even in Catalonia, if there was a lawful referendum without a participation quorum I'm not sure indipendence would get a majority.
But who should be allowed to vote anyway? Only regional residents? Or only ethnic Catalans? How do you select without discrimination?

I support the right to self determination and believe a democratic discussion should always be allowed and free.
That said, in the case of any vote where indipendence wins, is an hypothetical 51% enough? Where do you put the bar?

Yugoslavia is a bad example, it was an artificial federation from the start and it costed thousands of lives in the end.
Right now it doesn't seem like anything of that sort is gonna repeat.
The same goes for Czechoslovakia, luckily there violence did not came in.

When I point out regions like Corsica are not economically sustainable, I mean that the people there are also mostly of that opinion; the calls for indipendence are from a vocal minority and I'm all for their right to express themselves and campaign but Catalonia and Scotland are the only Nations realistically feasible and with a vast popular support.

And even then that's not always enough, see Scotland.

Anyway, to be clear, I'm totally in favor of an indipendent Catalonia, but it's a long road ahead.

 

[Krystal]

Thanks for all the insight!

 

[Uskok]

Catalonia declares independence as Spain prepares to impose direct rule

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...le-catalan-parliament-president-a8023221.html

 

[jmc]

This whole thing has been one gigantic **** up.

 

[Loden Greatstorm]

A total mess...

 

[jmc]

Their biggest issue is no-one is going to recognise them. The entire process was so mishandled from both side its legitimacy is never going to be accepted.

 

[chamber-music]

Yeah this isn't going to be seen as legitimate by the international community. There wasn't even a proper public vote.

 

[Iceman]

This is all a big shame really. Have been to Barcelona about 10 times (had friends living there), love the place.

 

[ludovica]

Well, if as most probable, the central government imposes a new regional election soon and it is again overwhelmingly won by indipendentists, all parts will have to sit down.
Not really a lot of wiggle room there.

Let's hope the more reactionary elements of the Popular party do not mess this up more than it already is.

 

[Dr. Evil]

Their biggest issue is no-one is going to recognise them. The entire process was so mishandled from both side its legitimacy is never going to be accepted.

This and also Spain has no enemies.

 

[RoastBeast]

This poll from El Pais seems to indicate that the majority of people of Catalonia want some form of status change, though not necessarily independent statehood.

https://politica.elpais.com/politica/2017/10/28/actualidad/1509189971_913953.html