Character Analysis of the Burton/Schumacher films...

[Spoonman]

Yes. Entertainment is not one of B Forever's problems.

Being a big fan of a certain character, the biggest problem for me is one that starts with "T" and ends with "wo-Face"

But oh well who would've known 2008 would come to deliver

 

[Two-Face]

Everything is collected and referenced here - http://gothamalleys.blogspot.com/2010/11/their-comments-on-others-work.html

Thanks for this man


I like Burton one here (talks about BF)

"I always hated those titles like Batman Forever. That sounds like a tattoo that somebody would get when they're on drugs or something. Or something some kid would write in the yearbook to somebody else. I have high problems with some of those titles."

I agree I didn't like the title either but Burton is funny.

 

[El Payaso]

Well, wasn't Burton's fetiche actor who tattoed "Winona Forever" on his arm? Lol.

 

[ALP]

Burton's films are very sexual...both of them are. Burton shows all his charcters to be completely outside the society they comment on. Nihilistic supermen fighting each other without reason. As they all have disdain for the law which keeps the society intact.

Nolan's films are very existential showing what elements would create such a vigilante activist hero. The need for a paternal relationships and how fear affects the mind. How fixing the world without and spiritual catharsis leads to a meditation on power and its destructive effects.

Both are extremely deep. Nolan's films are better though. Ebert is right in saying that throughout Burton's films the audience is disconnected to the character. TDK takes the cake though with the differences between Dent and Batman creating a questions that allow for so many different points of view the cometary becomes endless.

Schumacher's films were fun when I was a child, but they were studio controlled and did not allow Schumacher to make films the way he usually does. Dark.

That's up to each of the audience members to decide. It's really a case by case basis. I'm sure there are some people who didn't at all feel connected to Burton's Batman while others did. While I love both, I actually feel like I identify more with Keaton's Batman. I think to find the answer everyone simply must ask themselves, "If I was Batman, which one would I be(more) like? Keaton or Bale?"

Well, wasn't Burton's fetiche actor who tattoed "Winona Forever" on his arm? Lol.

 

[GothamAlleys]

That's up to each of the audience members to decide. It's really a case by case basis. I'm sure there are some people who didn't at all feel connected to Burton's Batman while others did. While I love both, I actually feel like I identify more with Keaton's Batman. I think to find the answer everyone simply must ask themselves, "If I was Batman, which one would I be(more) like? Keaton or Bale?"

Thats a very true fact. I know someone who had a trahedy in his family and lots of misgivings in his life, and even though hes not a comic book fan by any means or a Batman fan, he loves Burton's Batman movies because he says that he can identify with Keaton's Wayne more than with any other movie character, since hes also a person that likes to show up occasionally but prefers his own company yet doesnt mope around and doesnt have depression, just accepts his fate in peace but likes to spend most of his time alone and never vents

Also, for me nowadays Keaton is what I like most about Burton's movies, even above the great feel, music and sets and villains. I find his Wayne a very interesting and likable character, and as I mentioned many times before, after I saw Returns I liked the character so much that I was looking up all other non-comedy movies with Keaton to see at least some part of hat character again. The action drama One Good Cop was phenomenal btw

 

[The Batman]

With all this talk about Bruce Wayne’s fate in TDKR, and whether or not Bale’s Bruce would settle down, I started thinking about the love interests in the Burton/Schumacher films, and their relationships with Bruce. A lot of people tend to prefer Bruce/Selina, but I actually think Selina was as right/wrong for Bruce as Vicki was, and if anything, the best person for Bruce was actually Dr. Chase Meridian.

The interesting thing about Bruce/Vicki is that, on the surface, it seems…wrong. Bruce is this absent minded, brooding guy with no social life, staying in place at Wayne Manor. Vicki is this pretty, blonde woman who constantly wears white, is seemingly sociable, and is constantly on the go, whether she’s going to corto maltese, to a supermodel shoot, or to Gotham. However, one of the things I liked about B89 is that Vicki is like the cheerleader who goes out with the social outcast. She’s attracted to a certain kind of quirkiness/darkness, hence the reason that, among her supermodel photos there’s the corto maltese stuff. And for Bruce, Vicki is like a ray of sanity shining on his insane world. Vicki’s appeal is that she could make Bruce a better, somewhat saner person, because she’s not entirely like him.

However….as Batman Returns shows, Vicki could not ultimately deal with Bruce’s dual personality. IMO, this is because she fell in love with Bruce Wayne, the quirky, likable loner. She was never into Batman, and it kinda shows. She pretty much criticizes Batman to his face when they’re in the cave. Vicki rejects the Batman side of Bruce’s dual personality.

Selina is great for Bruce for an entirely different reason. While Vicki offered a chance Bruce improving himself, Selina seemed to accept Bruce for what he was, and they could relate to each other. Both were simply messed up people. However, this relationship was not meant to work out either. Had Selina met the Batman of 1989, they both would’ve went down a fiery road of revenge together. But, the Bruce of Batman Returns seemingly wanted to put Batman behind him as Catwoman was just beginning. Catwoman has just found her liberation, and she couldn’t stand the civilian side of herself, the woman who was weak enough to have people step all over her and throw her out of buildings. Selina rejects the Bruce Wayne side of the dual personality.

Dr. Chase, like Vicki and Selina, starts off liking one side of Bruce, but unlike Vicki and Selina, she never rejects the other. She comes to love Bruce instead of lusting after Batman, and plays a part in healing Bruce mentally. Techincally, Chase was pretty much the perfect woman for Bruce.

I wrote this on the fly, so I am sure there are mistakes, lol.

 

[DACrowe]

Some thoughts I'd like to add here having discovered this thread:

-While Burton definitely was more interested in the villains than heroes (tragic freaks always interest him more than popular do-gooders), in the first film it was an artistic and narrative choice that helped the film. By making Batman a mystery and Bruce Wayne an enigma for most of the movie, we see him through the eyes of both Vicky Vale and the Joker. We slowly learn more about him, like how he he can "fly" with grappling hooks in the chemical plant, that he has a car and cave after the museum, and ultimately how tragedy made him the man he is.

It is a noir device of having the stoic hero being extremely damaged and not explain himself. If he is explored at all, it is through other characters gradually studying him. This form of narrative while annoying for Bat-fans in the '80s and '90s feels kind of refreshing now. Instead of a generic, by-the-numbers origin (which even the best ones like BB, SM1, IM1 and STM can feel boring after also getting it in FF, DD, GR, Elektra, Thor, Captain America, Green Lantern, etc.), we get a slowly unraveled mystery of a protagonist who slowly pulls you into his trauma instead of wearing it like a traditional hero-origin arc.

-In Batman Returns, Burton obviously is fascinated by the Penguin character and Michelle Pffeifer's performance as Catwoman. However, they are all reflections of Batman himself. The Penguin is the child born to privilege and pedigree who was met by tragedy when his parents abandoned him. However, while Bruce maintained his wealth because his parents were cruelly taken away by random violence, Oswald's parents intentionally abandoned him to the horrors of the world. Catwoman/Selina has the same duality as Batman/Bruce and can only work through her psychosis and issues by donning a costume and seeking revenge and social acceptance as a vigilante-esque figure. She, like Batman, can only feel comfortable in the fetishistic play of dress-up. Even Max Schreck is a double for the public image of Bruce Wayne as the "Favorite Son of Gotham." Bruce uses his wealth to help people and redeem what happened to his family, Max uses it to help himself and his family.

But it all comes down to an ending where Bruce realizes he's not a hero. No, he's just a guy in a costume who is doing it to work through his own personal crap like Selina, Oswald and even Max to a lesser extent. When Selina rejects Bruce, she is rejecting that either of them could pretend to live a normal life and instead must be true to their perverted selves. He fails to save her from killing Max and the Penguin dies a pathetic and tragic freak, but not really a monster. Is Bruce that different? He's alone on Christmas Eve and when he realizes that Selina won't come back to him, he must accept that he'll likely always be alone and that he is more freak than hero. Darker than even TDK's ending and themes.

-One last thing I'd like to add to this thread is that both of Burton's films are parodies of greed and excess in the increasingly commercial world. All of Gotham is willing to forgive the Joker because he runs a TV ad promising to hand out free money. And this is only after he poisoned all the products that appeal to their vanity like perfume, facial cream, etc. And they still show up and applaud him because he is the man with money and in America you can literally get away with murder if you are rich enough and promise to trickle it down. In BR, it's Christmas time but it's also set around an evil industrialist who owns the biggest chain of department stores in the city. Selina must reject this crass commercialism by destroying it all in her house to be free and later the store itself. The villains use Christmas to their own gain and it feels less like Peace on Earth than a bunch of idiot Gothamites being herded along like cattle by Schreck to buy what he wants them to buy and think what he wants them to think with his media blitz supporting the Penguin.

Ironically, by the time we got to B&R, that kind of mindless commercialism that Burton despises (just not in his Batman movies, but also in Beetlejuice and Edward Scissorhands) is all that's on display. A movie made to sell toys and nothing more. The irony of this is amusing to me.

 

[Mandalore464]

Edit : Deleted

 

[DACrowe]

Glad you enjoyed it.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

It's sad that the Burton films have to share a thread with the Schumacher movies.

 

[Mandalore464]

Edit : Deleted

 

[The Joker]

Haha... Some time soon Nolan's films will belong here too.

I think he means that Schumacher's movies are sequels to Burton's. Nolan's is a separate franchise.

 

[Mandalore464]

Edit : Deleted

 

[The Joker]

Sequels???

Damn, I always considered them separate entities. I never even thought B&R and Batman Forever were sequels.

Yes, they are considered to be connected to them. Apart from the continuity casting of Alfred and Gordon, Batman already established in Gotham as a hero, and the batsignal, there are verbal references to the previous movies such as Chase's line to Batman about his taste in women; "You like strong women. I've done my homework. Or do I need skin tight vinyl and a whip?".

Then there was the exchange between Dick and Bruce over Dick seeking revenge on Two Face for killing his parents:

Dick: "You can't understand. Your family wasn't killed by a maniac"
Bruce: "Yes they were. We're the same"

Obvious reference to Joker killing Bruce's parents.

 

[DACrowe]

Bruce could be just talking about any homicidal thug?

Seriously, I think Schumaucher's films exist in Burton's world, but the Burton films don't exist in Schumaucher's world if you know what I mean. Schumaucher's movies are clearly "sequels" to Burton's series, but it's also obviously a very soft reboot. The way Burton understands the Bruce/Batman character, Gotham, his relationship with Alfred, the tone, etc. are all drastically different. The only thing they have in common is the actors who play Alfred and Gordon.

I view them as separate.

 

[Mandalore464]

Edit : Deleted

 

[Lead Cenobite]

I consider them sequels, it's just they were extremely apathetic about continuity.

 

[El Payaso]

They are sequels but made so you don't have to watch/consider the first movies necessarily.

 

[MydnightPhoenix]

A lot of talk about Batman and BR, not so much about BF.
I did just realize that B89 was probably the creepiest Batman. You don't spend long dialogue on his back story and what is driving him. It make it much Freeport when he shows up from the shadows even if he is there to save the damsel in distress. Hes not a mean Batman not a nice Batman, he's just freakishly quiet pops out does his thing and the disappears leaving you wondering WTF!

 

[El Hombre Gato]

I think Schumaucher's films exist in Burton's world, but the Burton films don't exist in Schumaucher's world if you know what I mean. Schumaucher's movies are clearly "sequels" to Burton's series, but it's also obviously a very soft reboot.

Batman Forever concludes what Tim Burton started. When Batman kills Jack Napier, his parents murderer, he essentially gets revenge. But as Bruce Wayne explains to Dick Grayson, one face becomes another till vengence consumes your life. Eventually, through the help of Chase Meridian, he comes to accept that he's Batman because he chooses to be not because he HAS to be. In other words, he's now Batman because he wants to provide a public service not because he's still that angry child laying next to his dead parents. So, not only does Schumacher's movie exist in the same universe but it manages to lighten it up.

 

[The Batman]

^ Hell, Batman and Robin is pretty much what happens now that Bruce is Batman for purely alturistic reasons rather than Vengeful ones.

Keaton's Bruce= Angry psychotic man who starts to realize how messed up he is

Kilmer's Bruce = Knows how messed up he is, is haunted by it and repressed memories. Is eventually healed

Clooney's Bruce = Healed persona taken to an even further extent

 

[ALP]

So healed in fact that he enjoys spending quite a bit of time at the circuth.