Dear Kevin Feige... please don't slowly turn Marvel Studios into Fox or Sony

Discussion in 'Marvel Films' started by Disney Man, May 8, 2013.

  1. Lord

    Lord All Mighty

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    The MCU really lacks an amazing villain, Loki was close but his backstory was nothing special and in The Avengers he was a kind of weak villain.

    Most criticism i see is quite constructive, and they do give good reasons for why the decoy would have been a better villain. I wasn't really expecting to see him wielding 10 super powered alien rings, but a super terrorist in the vein of Binladen, somebody that would have given Tony a different type of challenge and be after more than just revenge against Iron Man.

    Don't get me wrong, i did like Killian, and i hope he's alive since there's potencial in him and the best they can do now is move on and work with what they built. And they better make good use of the new Mandarin.
     
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  2. Donnie Darko

    Donnie Darko Forgotten Pre-New 52 Hero

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    Ok, can we just all agree...

    Iron Man 3's Mandarin > Fox's Galactus Cloud
     
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  3. Kahran Ramsus

    Kahran Ramsus Well-Known Member

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    You act like that is something new. What did you expect? Them to advertise the twist in advance? Let's be realistic here. Films have been doing this since at least the 30s, and I only can't say before then because I'm not familiar enough with the Silent Era. Many all-time classics have done this. You just come off as whining because a director had the audicity to try and fool the audience.

    "OMG. This movie is so AWFUL! We were led to believe that Darth Vader murdered Luke's father! That's false advertising!"

    I'm sorry, I don't like to be condescending, but in this case that argument is just so ridiculous I can't help it. Not liking a twist because you thought it was stupid or didn't work is one thing. Not liking a twist because you felt 'misled' is ******ed.
     
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    Last edited: May 10, 2013
  4. DrCosmic

    DrCosmic Professor of Power

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    On the False Mandarin
    Even without any big interest in any version of the Mandarin, the twist was a disappointment. Tony fighting a businessman for the third time, the third time (Begins, TDKR) that we've seen the villain-switcheroo in a comic book movie.

    - Take great a non-white villain from the comics
    - Optional: Cast a white person in their role
    - Give them a white business-minded flunky
    - Reveal dum-dum-dum, the villain is just a puppet, and the flunky is in charge!

    The difference here is that they built up the Mandarin as a great villain. He was an incredible character... the promos, and just his image and speech pattern was exciting... then he got turned into a gag. It was a let down, and it also prevented me from caring about Killian at all because no matter how personal it was for him, he was never on the level of Mandarin in terms of theatrics, something he as a character even noted. That's pretty weak. Fortunately, the action and characterization were good enogh it didn't ruin the film, but it was definitely a let down, and I hope I don't have to see this tired twist again anytime soon.

    Great twists, Vader being Luke's father, ratchet up the tension. Building up a threat and then deflating it to build up another is not only counterproductive, but bad storytelling. This is a part of art, of experimentation, it's natural, not unlike the original ending for Mass Effect 3... but just because something is meant well doesn't mean it's actually good in the end.

    On the OP

    This was a misstep. I don't think this is a slippery slope where, 'well they messed up Mandarin, they don't care anymore.' The raw fact is that they are in the movie-making business, and so faithfulness to comics is not the primary goal... this means missteps will happen. Sometimes people will make a Captain America movie that's a "love letter to Indiana Jones" instead of a love letter to Captain America. Sometimes there'll be recasting driven entirely by money and politics. This is what happens when a lot of people get involved to the tune of 200 Million dollars. Changes. Most are good, but some, by law of averages, will be bad.
     
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  5. Victarion

    Victarion Iron Captain

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    Respectfully, the advertising really did play up the Mandarin as Tony's adversary with a reach that knows no bounds. Tossing out that character and the potential back story for Mandarin's disgust toward "heros" is what I disliked about the twist. If Killian had been given as interesting a backstory, or if that had been his backstory and Kingsley were parroting it under Killian's orders...the twist would not have bothered me as much.
     
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  6. Mrs. Sawyer

    Mrs. Sawyer Well-Known Member

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    First of all, lol at the OP.

    So we get a whole movie in which Marvel does exactly what you want with Tony Stark, but because they make one adjustment to one character, everyone's all up in arms.

    So a studio's that's been very successful at their movies because they're understand their characters, leading up to their greatest success in The Avengers, and after one decision that some people didn't like, they're now suggesting they're on the road to being like Fox or Sony (In which both have actually been doing better than before)?

    God, some comic book fans are not only incredibly fickle, but have terrible memory too.
     
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  7. Mrs. Sawyer

    Mrs. Sawyer Well-Known Member

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    Are you kidding me? You can't honestly look at these movies and say faithfulness to their characters aren't the goal. Let's take out the Mandarin twist for a second.

    Look at all the characters that were faithfully adapted, and I'm not talking visually. They nailed the core of 99% of their characters. The Avengers was a huge success, and others before it were successful in their own rights because they stuck to the characters. And they will still stick to the characters.

    This thread reeks of just fanboy whining and entitlement because the angry fans didn't get what they wanted.
     
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  8. jmc

    jmc away for a while

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    Don't you understand that this is an extreme case of misleading? Yes you do sound condescending because you're not taking into account how this film was marketed and why people have the right to feel gutted. There are plenty of cases where we've all seen movies that aren't what trailers made them out to be, the difference is in this case it's such an extreme case that went beyond just the trailers. Yes it works in context, but fans don't like to be taken for fools especially when it's being built up as an epic showdown between hero and villain. It's playing with fans emotions because they wanted Iron Man to have a genuine arch nemesis and everything pointed toward getting one. So they have every right to feel misled just as you have every right to be ok with twist. And don't get me wrong, there's nothing with playing a deceptive card as long as it actually has some meaning within the film, otherwise it's a twist for the sake of shock value.
     
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  9. Lord

    Lord All Mighty

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    I think many were disapointed about the twist because before that we had the this Mandarin:

    [YT]qBgH1aEtLaY[/YT]
     
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  10. pr0xyt0xin

    pr0xyt0xin Shaper Savant

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    hell yeah. He's got a **** ton of charisma, let me tell you. I think Ben Kingsley is the best actor we've had in a Marvel film thus far. Wouldve made for a great nemesis.
     
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  11. jmc

    jmc away for a while

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    Sorry mate, but this is bull ****. Feeling misled is not the same as feeling entitled. Big difference.
     
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  12. Mrs. Sawyer

    Mrs. Sawyer Well-Known Member

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    And this is your first time being mislead by a movie? It's called a red herring for a reason.

    You're right that people have a right to be mad, but if that twist really ruins people's supposedly high faith in Marvel, then they're fickle. End of story.
     
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  13. DarkSovereignty

    DarkSovereignty Ooga Chakka

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    Dont even get me started not the f***ing birds. I went into that movie, and it starts out like this quirky romantic comedy, but then a bunch of birds start attacking people halfway through. So ramdom. What the f*** Hitchcock?
     
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  14. Mad Ones

    Mad Ones Bebe le Strange

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    I personally thought that Kingsley as Mandarin was awful. It didn't excite me for the movie at all, and I couldn't take his voice or appearance seriously. I also hated what he supposedly stood for as a villain. I was relieved by the twist.
     
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  15. jmc

    jmc away for a while

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    A poorly executed one. Do you honestly think if it was a well executed twist then people would be blowing up about it?
     
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  16. Kahran Ramsus

    Kahran Ramsus Well-Known Member

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    People blow up about everything. Trust me. I've had to defend TDK on these boards plenty of times, and it is the best superhero film ever.

    Judging by the fan response from places like RottenTomatoes, IMDB, Cinemascore, etc., the majority were fine with it. If it was hated you would see it reflected elsewhere, like with Green Lantern.
     
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    Last edited: May 10, 2013
  17. kedrell

    kedrell Fork&SpoonOperator

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    Not fickle, just fed up. Many fans suffered through all the crap from 1998 when Marvel's films really started all the way till now. Marvel Studios in-house films were a lifeline to me at a point when I was ready to just give up on the genre entirely in film. And I liked/loved everything they did up until IM3 to varying degrees. But now they have shown themselves to be as misguided as Sony/Fox ever were. I'm not 100% giving up after this one stinker but my enthusiasm is now on the decline. More films like this and it could evaporate entirely as it was close to doing in 2007.
     
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  18. MichaelChen

    MichaelChen Well-Known Member

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    That's not Mandarin. That's Yellow Claw.

    The Mandarin is the mad scientist with the superhuman martial arts powers who shouts that "I AM THE MANDARIN!! as he karate-chops you to pieces. That's comic Mandarin. The people who want Kingsley's character to be real are Yellow Claw fans and don't even know it.

    [​IMG]
     
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  19. Victarion

    Victarion Iron Captain

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    The point of an adaption is to keep the good, toss out the bad, and beef-up the character as needed.
     
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  20. Lord

    Lord All Mighty

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    What exactly didn't you like in what he stood out as?
    I'm not talking about comic purism, that entire sequence was the reason the decoy Mandarin was so threatening.
     
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  21. xeno000

    xeno000 IRON MAN WAS RIGHT!

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    And how precisely would that Mandarin have been able to give Tony Stark/Iron Man a good fight? The Mandarin we actually got in the movie was incredibly powerful with unique abilities that allowed him to fight Iron Man hand-to-hand and damn near win. Killian actually would have won without that other plot twist that has so many panties in a wad.

    Anyone who prefers an older man without superpowers to an Extremis-fueled Mandarin needs to explain how the former would have been anything but a lame villain for Iron Man to confront. Unless, of course, you actually wanted yet another villain in an iron suit end battle?
     
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  22. Lord

    Lord All Mighty

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    Since when does a villain have to be physically strong to be a menace? Or a good villain? In that case let's just joing extremis with Hulk's serum in the next villain.
     
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  23. xeno000

    xeno000 IRON MAN WAS RIGHT!

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    In the clip you posted, Mandarin was menacing but all he did was shoot a man in the head.* Killian and his Extremis soldiers committed far more carnage than that, some of it with their bare hands. Their powers and ruthlessness were far more scary and appalling than the Kingsley character because the damage they inflicted on others was portrayed very realistically. Killian was brutally using his test subjects, actually vaporizing people, sending them off to kill civilians and even attacking Air Force One remorselessly. And he shot people on top of all that. He may have had a different demeanor from Kingsley/Mandarin but he was no less menacing for that.

    Another point: All through the film Tony Stark himself dealt with his foes quite brutally. There is this constant refrain that Marvel films are somehow less adult than some other superhero fare, but in truth their approach to violence has always been far more realistic than their competitors' movies. Considering the punishment Tony meted out to Brandt, Savin, Killian and assorted thugs it's clear that Marvel and its heroes pull no punches. Were Black and Pearce really aiming to please only kids, the body count would have been a lot lower and the language far less salty.

    * Yeah, I know how the twist played out in that scene but, you know, spoilers.
     
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  24. Lord

    Lord All Mighty

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    You don't get it do you? It's not about him shooting a guy, it's about how he shot the guy and made the president piss his pants, as well as showing the people that he was the one in control. The brutal extreme supermen were Mandarin's before they were killian, what would change would be the guy, and if anything his actions would be even more brutal, since like Binladen he would probably have a lot of fanatic followers besides the people he saved, while the best Killua had besides the ambutee extremis soldiers were some hired guns, one even surrendered himself.
     
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  25. blalex620

    blalex620 Comics, Books, Games

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    I feel like the question everyone's trying to answer is who's the true mastermind: the architect or the seller. Killian is the architect, the brains behind the whole operation. Trevor (The Mandarin) was the actor who sold the plan. The architect can double as the seller, the seller can't become the architect so at the end of the day Killian is the true mastermind.

    I don't agree with the thought that the Mandarin that was portrayed to the media would of been a better villain than Killian because plan and simple Killian gave the plans for everything the Mandarin did. When you put aside all feelings towards the Mandarin comic book character it's easy to see was a great villain. He planned everything that happened no matter how you want to look at it. Think about it like this: if you wrote a speech and had someone deliver it for you, who takes credit for the brilliancy of the idea, you or them?

    Edit: I feel like everyone's caught up on the image of the Mandarin. Take away the image, the person; not the ideas, the plans, the essence, take the image Trevor put up on camera and what you will be left with is Killian plan and simple.
     
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    Last edited: May 11, 2013

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