Discussion: Voting Rights and Election Law

[Sithborg]

The solution to people voting in ways you do not like is never, and I absolutely mean never, preventing people from voting.

 

[Flint Marko]

The whole “uninformed electorate” thing is pointing to a hypothetical problem that is difficult to quantify in a conversation centered around very real, very dangerous laws being passed that are aiming to take us back to the era of segregation and Jim Crowe.

I grew up in an extremely conservative environment. I know all the rhetorical tricks, excuses, and arguments. "Mob rule". "Personal accountability". "Rugged individualism".

Whether writer is aware of it or not, the root of all that is racism. The modern GOP can, in so many ways, best be understood as a backlash against the Civil Rights movement and these arguments implying there's a segment of the population unequipped to vote responsibly that we need to legislate around, is just racism.

 

[Donner]

Ooh this is an interesting discussion and one that I've had issues with since I could vote.

I hate the idea of uninformed people voting. A dear friend of mine is like this. She doesn't watch the news, read the papers/internet, google any politician (ever). She didn't know who Dick Cheney was or Putin. Hell, she didn't even know who ISIS was until I told her.

And therein lies the problem. I could have told her ISIS is a group of service dogs and she wouldn't have known otherwise. I could convince this woman of anything. Would it affect her vote? Maybe. But I'm pretty sure I could convince her to vote my way if I had enough conviction.

This is part of the reason that if I were ever on trial, I would never want to be judged by a jury of my peers. I want experts in their fields: Psychology, statistics, criminology, medicine, physics, etc. Regular people are too easily swayed by disingenuous arguments. But I digress.

I think the best thing for any voting is that before you vote, whether online, in person, or mail in, you're given an information package about the various candidates and the platforms they're running on. Basic information, taken right from their websites so there's no bias. Every Canadian election, I can google the platforms of any of the parties (4 or 5 usually) and I'll get a list of their plans. And then I can fact check the points.

I also believe felons should be able to vote. So much of their time in prison and afterwards is determined by the lawmakers, they have every right to vote. And the same applies as above. Give everyone a brochure or a list of the parties and their platforms. There's only so much you can do after that.

 

[writer0327]

If you think Maxine Water's rhetoric and blacks voting for the status quo is a greater danger to democracy than neofascist and neoconfederates literally storming the capitol to shut down the certification of a US president while congressmen run for their lives then I don't know what to tell you.

The "you ain't black" thing was goofy but most blacks can brush that off and look at the true nature of their political opposition. The confederate flag being paraded through the capitol to re-install the most openly xenophobic president in the last century who is endorsed by the klan and neonazis, that the true nature of the Republican Party. 87% of blacks vote Democrat because it's been painfully obvious since the Southern Strategy.

So yeah saying "you ain't black" is goofy but to say it's worse than neoconfederate loonies pushing for a Trump dictatorship is fairly ridiculous hyperbole and quite disturbing coming from a black dude.

The "you ain't black" issue is more than just a goofy comment, it shows a great disdain for black people in general. This isn't the first time Biden has made disparaging remarks about black people. He recently made some more, only a couple of days ago if I am not mistaken, regarding black and brown people's ability to get on the Internet. It's very unfortunate that people don't view this as the blatant racism that it is.

But that's neither here nor there. I never made any such suggestions regarding neoconfederates, nor idiots storming the Capitol, not sure where that comment even came from or why it entered into this conversation. My discussion is strictly regarding voting, and how casting your vote based on hate, fear, and race baiting rhetoric, regardless of who or what side it came from, is the absolute height of uninformed, irresponsible voting that has gotten us right where we are....one particular racial group voting at the rate of 90% for a political party that has gotten them little to no progress in the last 50 years.

 

[writer0327]

The whole “uninformed electorate” thing is pointing to a hypothetical problem that is difficult to quantify in a conversation centered around very real, very dangerous laws being passed that are aiming to take us back to the era of segregation and Jim Crowe.

I grew up in an extremely conservative environment. I know all the rhetorical tricks, excuses, and arguments. "Mob rule". "Personal accountability". "Rugged individualism".

Whether writer is aware of it or not, the root of all that is racism. The modern GOP can, in so many ways, best be understood as a backlash against the Civil Rights movement and these arguments implying there's a segment of the population unequipped to vote responsibly that we need to legislate around, is just racism.

You're echoing the sentiments of the Smithsonian from a few months ago re: "whiteness", as though other people in other cultures cannot possibly encompass values such as individualism, accountability, and a strong work ethic. This is white supremacist nonsense. White people did not invent these values and are not the sole progenitors of them.


The ideas that will take us back to Jim Crow are those that insist race should be at the forefront of every conversation, every interaction, and that the races should be treated differently. The ideas that say you are determined by your race and that race leads to the important factors of your decision making and your life. Anti-racist people lead with the individual as a person, not a skin color. When you lead with race, you aren't adopting content of character as the basis for how you deal with the person. This isn't to suggest that race should never be discussed, or that it isn't important, but its probably the least important thing about a person.

 

[writer0327]

I think the best thing for any voting is that before you vote, whether online, in person, or mail in, you're given an information package about the various candidates and the platforms they're running on. Basic information, taken right from their websites so there's no bias. Every Canadian election, I can google the platforms of any of the parties (4 or 5 usually) and I'll get a list of their plans. And then I can fact check the points.

This is certainly the bare minimum that should be done, and I receive those packets in the mail, usually a month or so before the election. Covers all the local props and measures, gives some detail on the local, state, and federal candidates up for election. At the very least, it gets the voter pointed in a direction to hopefully seek more information.

And you're correct of course, as to the problem when you don't have an engaged, informed electorate, whoever has the most money to campaign the hardest usually wins. Its becomes a game of big bank take little bank instead of the issues of the people. Who has the biggest donors? And what's in it for them? All the things that shouldn't be part of an election become part of the election because the people don't know no better.

I know I'm a conservative, but I agree with the sentiments of Marina Sirtis....you get what you vote for, folks. (I wouldn't have said it in quite the way she did) But I'd really like to see us stop electing crappy politicians that don't do anything but make themselves rich, and if that means adding an additional layer or two to the voting process, so be it.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

The "you ain't black" issue is more than just a goofy comment, it shows a great disdain for black people in general. This isn't the first time Biden has made disparaging remarks about black people. He recently made some more, only a couple of days ago if I am not mistaken, regarding black and brown people's ability to get on the Internet. It's very unfortunate that people don't view this as the blatant racism that it is.

But that's neither here nor there. I never made any such suggestions regarding neoconfederates, nor idiots storming the Capitol, not sure where that comment even came from or why it entered into this conversation. My discussion is strictly regarding voting, and how casting your vote based on hate, fear, and race baiting rhetoric, regardless of who or what side it came from, is the absolute height of uninformed, irresponsible voting that has gotten us right where we are....one particular racial group voting at the rate of 90% for a political party that has gotten them little to no progress in the last 50 years.

Biden is a tone deaf gaffe machine, it doesn't mean he's anywhere as racist as people on the far right.

The "you ain't black" was an insult towards a subset of blacks who are blind to the worst intentions of the far right and play the whole "both sides" game. It was not an insult towards blacks in general but rather blacks who don't see how the legacy of the Southern Strategy, Jim Crow and J Edgar Hoover has transformed into "Build the Wall", "Blue Lives Matter" and "Make America Great Again". It was a sloppy but fair criticism.

And you actually blamed Biden for current situation instead of the "stolen election" claims and "proud boys stand by" comments that helped incite January 6th. Then had the gall to call Biden supporters uninformed for having the common sense to see what the insurrectionist truly represent.

Of course you didn't bring up neoconfederates. You refuse to acknowledge any obvious dangers of the far right. Instead you keep bringing up Biden's gaffe instead while claiming to be some beacon of reason, centrist.

If black people were evenly split among party lines Trump would be president and the far right would still control the white house.

Thank God blacks (with some exceptions) are cognizant enough to stop that from happening.

 

[Sithborg]

The ideas that will take us back to Jim Crow are those that insist race should be at the forefront of every conversation, every interaction, and that the races should be treated differently. The ideas that say you are determined by your race and that race leads to the important factors of your decision making and your life. Anti-racist people lead with the individual as a person, not a skin color. When you lead with race, you aren't adopting content of character as the basis for how you deal with the person. This isn't to suggest that race should never be discussed, or that it isn't important, but its probably the least important thing about a person.

"The best actor for the job"

A phrase that has been thrown around this site quite a few times. A phrase and leads arguments usually against the casting of a minority. Not really mentioning skin color, but the undertone is inherently racist.

I say this as someone who nearly fell into the alt-right pit, "color blindness" is a way to hide racism. Not ever addressing race can lead to it bubbling under the service. And racism is a problem for both sides. Now, it may not exactly be as homicidal as it is on the right, but it is a problem on the left. NIMBY-ism is essentially born out of racism.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

You're echoing the sentiments of the Smithsonian from a few months ago re: "whiteness", as though other people in other cultures cannot possibly encompass values such as individualism, accountability, and a strong work ethic. This is white supremacist nonsense. White people did not invent these values and are not the sole progenitors of them.
View attachment 43282

The ideas that will take us back to Jim Crow are those that insist race should be at the forefront of every conversation, every interaction, and that the races should be treated differently. The ideas that say you are determined by your race and that race leads to the important factors of your decision making and your life. Anti-racist people lead with the individual as a person, not a skin color. When you lead with race, you aren't adopting content of character as the basis for how you deal with the person. This isn't to suggest that race should never be discussed, or that it isn't important, but its probably the least important thing about a person.

Yeah bringing up racism does not force people to be racist and support Jim Crow. Lmao.

That's like saying "a Jewish professor spoke to our school about the rise of Nazism and the Holocaust, now I have no other choice but to become antisemitic".

It reminds me of the people who blame Obama for America's divisions instead of the actual racist who despised having a black president.

Yeah these future, hardcore Trump supporters were practically civil rights activist until Obama's neoconservative agenda changed their mind.

 

[writer0327]

"The best actor for the job"

A phrase that has been thrown around this site quite a few times. A phrase and leads arguments usually against the casting of a minority. Not really mentioning skin color, but the undertone is inherently racist.

I say this as someone who nearly fell into the alt-right pit, "color blindness" is a way to hide racism. Not ever addressing race can lead to it bubbling under the service. And racism is a problem for both sides. Now, it may not exactly be as homicidal as it is on the right, but it is a problem on the left. NIMBY-ism is essentially born out of racism.

Morgan Freeman put it perfectly when asked how to get rid of racism... "I'm gonna stop calling you a white man and you're gonna stop calling me a black man." But that's the deathknell for all the race hustlers and folks that need racism to validate their own hatred, their own sense of superiority or their own virtuosness.

Imagine a world where we saw each other as human beings first and not skin colors.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Morgan Freeman put it perfectly when asked how to get rid of racism... "I'm gonna stop calling you a white man and you're gonna stop calling me a black man." But that's the deathknell for all the race hustlers and folks that need racism to validate their own hatred, their own sense of superiority or their own virtuosness.

Imagine a world where we saw each other as human beings first and not skin colors.

People with retrograde views on everything but who claim they don't LOVE that Freeman quote.


Here's another quote:




People that push the narrative you do... Are willfully blind.


You are beyond help until you open your eyes and stop negotiating with reality because there are things you and others would give greater consideration to (And they may not even be worthy of yours or anybody else's considerations in the first place which is the real rub...) over the clear history and current state of systemic racsim in the country.

 

[Donner]

Imagine a world where we saw each other as human beings first and not skin colors.

That's some kind of Lennon "Imagine" crap and you know it.

People have real lived experiences based on their skin colour and their gender. That kind of diversity ends up being ignored or downplayed when people say "let's all get along!" Treating people equally does not necessarily mean treating them the same.

Biologically, race doesn't separate us. But it's a social construct that gives us culture and identity. To try and erase that is to come from a place of privilege and demand that everyone get along according to a set standard of behaviour and cultural norms. And whose behaviour gets to set that standard? Historically, white Europeans.

So let's not play this "I don't see race" card. Everyone sees race and it's not only important to recognize it, but celebrate it and precisely for the reason because we look different from each other. You can see human beings and their races at the same time. To want otherwise or to think it's possible to only see a human is naive and frankly, destructive.

 

[Flint Marko]

You're echoing the sentiments of the Smithsonian from a few months ago re: "whiteness", as though other people in other cultures cannot possibly encompass values such as individualism, accountability, and a strong work ethic. This is white supremacist nonsense. White people did not invent these values and are not the sole progenitors of them.
View attachment 43282

The ideas that will take us back to Jim Crow are those that insist race should be at the forefront of every conversation, every interaction, and that the races should be treated differently. The ideas that say you are determined by your race and that race leads to the important factors of your decision making and your life. Anti-racist people lead with the individual as a person, not a skin color. When you lead with race, you aren't adopting content of character as the basis for how you deal with the person. This isn't to suggest that race should never be discussed, or that it isn't important, but its probably the least important thing about a person.

Again, we are discussing the topic of voter suppression in a country where the average minimum wait time to vote in primarily white areas is 5 minutes compared to an hour in communities like mine. This is the direct result of policies pushed by conservatives who insist we live in a post-racial society. If you don’t believe me Google Shelby vs Holder. Race is indelibly tied to this discussion.

The arguments you are positing sound harmless in theory but in practice always lead to voter suppression for BIPOC. This isn’t my opinion, it’s verifiable reality. Whether you want to acknowledge this or not is up to you.

 

[MagnarTheGreat]

Huffpost - A Majority Of Americans Want To Make It Easier To Vote By Mail

 

[mclay18]

Huffpost - A Majority Of Americans Want To Make It Easier To Vote By Mail

Good luck trying to get that through Republican-dominated legislatures, most of whom are trying to restrict the voting measures expanded last year.

I've voted several times via mail over the years -- and it's very convenient. Even though I had to get witnesses (or a notary) for the envelope, it was easier mailing my vote in earlier rather than standing in line.

 

[MagnarTheGreat]

I voted entirely by mail for the primary and dropped my mail ballot off for the general election at the local government building. The only inconvenience if you want to call it that I had was walking through a metal detector, which is also something Republicans in D.C. think should not apply to them personally but only the peons they see us as.

 

[writer0327]

That's some kind of Lennon "Imagine" crap and you know it.

People have real lived experiences based on their skin colour and their gender. That kind of diversity ends up being ignored or downplayed when people say "let's all get along!" Treating people equally does not necessarily mean treating them the same.

Biologically, race doesn't separate us. But it's a social construct that gives us culture and identity. To try and erase that is to come from a place of privilege and demand that everyone get along according to a set standard of behaviour and cultural norms. And whose behaviour gets to set that standard? Historically, white Europeans.

So let's not play this "I don't see race" card. Everyone sees race and it's not only important to recognize it, but celebrate it and precisely for the reason because we look different from each other. You can see human beings and their races at the same time. To want otherwise or to think it's possible to only see a human is naive and frankly, destructive.

I guess diversity of skin color beats diversity of thought. Gotcha.

 

[InCali]

Make it as easy as possible for citizens to vote.
Make factual information as easily available as possible.
Make voter registration a passive process instead of requiring an active registration process.
Limit/eliminate corporate PACs and require a certain level of accuracy in ads.
Require minimum voting standards for states and enforce it via the withholding of federal funds if necessary.

 

[InCali]

IMO, race, as it relates to this thread, is germane in only one way I can think of right off the top of my head; people of color have a more difficult time voting in many states than do their white counterparts and some states pass, and try to pass, voting laws to intentionally discourage these citizens from voting.

 

[Donner]

I guess diversity of skin color beats diversity of thought. Gotcha.

Wow you missed that completely. Diversity of thought comes from diversity of skin colour.

That was literally the point of my post.

 

[writer0327]

Wow you missed that completely. Diversity of thought comes from diversity of skin colour.

That was literally the point of my post.

No, diversity of thought comes from diversity of thought, unless you believe people of the same color all think alike. And that would be prejudiced as hell.

 

[Donner]

No, diversity of thought comes from diversity of thought, unless you believe people of the same color all think alike. And that would be prejudiced as hell.

I absolutely don't think that. But you're nitpicking from my post to make asinine statements that are not correct.

Wanting to see people as just people and ignoring their skin colour erases their diversity of thought. It's an invaluable resource to find out what people of different races and ethnicities and genders think because their life experience has been largely affected by these factors. Unless you're suggesting that a black man and a white man would have the same life experiences. Which I would challenge.

That's why people want to see more diversity in government and in positions of power. Because the experiences of black women (for example) largely differs from the experiences of white men. And those different experiences lay the groundwork for different ideas and behaviours, which we need to see and hear.

 

[writer0327]

I absolutely don't think that. But you're nitpicking from my post to make asinine statements that are not correct.

Wanting to see people as just people and ignoring their skin colour erases their diversity of thought. It's an invaluable resource to find out what people of different races and ethnicities and genders think because their life experience has been largely affected by these factors. Unless you're suggesting that a black man and a white man would have the same life experiences. Which I would challenge.

That's why people want to see more diversity in government and in positions of power. Because the experiences of black women (for example) largely differs from the experiences of white men. And those different experiences lay the groundwork for different ideas and behaviours, which we need to see and hear.

This is way off topic of course, but I can't tell you how many times people have assumed that because Im black, this means I have had certain experiences or I must think a certain way. It's very insulting to assume that because of my skin color, I must have a unique take on a situation. Shortly after the George Floyd riots, people at my job (mostly white Democrats) began calling me and asking me for my take on the situation. Some of these people barely talked to me in the past. But now they wanted me to know they have my back and they are an "ally", and I knew then (and confirmed later) they were assuming that because of my skin color, I felt some kind of way about it.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

The people that care about government employees getting away with murder regularly are the REAL monsters in society.

Glad that's cleared up.

 

[InCali]

This is way off topic of course, but I can't tell you how many times people have assumed that because Im black, this means I have had certain experiences or I must think a certain way. It's very insulting to assume that because of my skin color, I must have a unique take on a situation. Shortly after the George Floyd riots, people at my job (mostly white Democrats) began calling me and asking me for my take on the situation. Some of these people barely talked to me in the past. But now they wanted me to know they have my back and they are an "ally", and I knew then (and confirmed later) they were assuming that because of my skin color, I felt some kind of way about it.

As you may or may not know, I am a recovering statistician. As such, I understand that there are variances in any and all populations, but distinct populations exist. When I think of the "black" or "brown" or whatever experience, I think "in general". Anyone who thinks "all" of anything thinks a certain way, doesn't understand human nature. Anyone who thinks factors don't generally affect how you see the world is blind.

Soooooo.....my take, as someone who grew up in an economically lower class household in LA, is that most of "us" don't see the police as our friend (I'm referencing George Floyd here just to make myself clear). To be clear....policing in this country is a huge issue that must be addressed.

I've already made my opinions about voting known so I'll skip being any more repetitive than I've already been.