Fate vs Free Will

[SpideyVille]

So where do you stand on the idea of people having free will as opposed to living out a life that they were predestined to live? Do you believe that some things are "meant to be" or are you in complete control of what happens in your life and that certain things are just coincidences?

P.S. Please let's not turn this into a religious debate thread, we have plenty of those and they're never really fun.

Personally, I find both ideas pretty intriguing since both bring up some pretty interesting questions like just how free is free will, and if there is such a thing as fate, who would control it aside from we ourselves? Also, how much control can a person really have? All these possible questions sort of leave me on the fence between both ideas, though sometimes I feel like I was meant to be something specific and everything that happens to me happens to lead me there even though I have no idea where 'there' is.

 

[The Question]

This is going to become a religious debate. Fate and destiny are inherently religious concepts, as they can only exist if there is some kind of higher power.

 

[SpideyVille]

Well what I mean is I don't want to see this turn into a Christian vs Atheistic/Non-Believer thread because then this can pretty much be merged with a countless number of other threads. I'm more curious to see what people's experiences have lead them to think or believe about how the world works and what role they think they play in it.

 

[twylight]

Echoing The Question on this one. I can't give you my experiences or opinions concerning fate vs. freewill because it would go into religious territory.

 

[Ultra Lantern]

I also agree with The Queston.

 

[Spider-Who?]

Fate isn't inherently religious in nature. The two concepts can exist without the other. I know plenty of people who believe in fate, or some cosmic connection, without looking at it from religion-tinted glasses. To limit the concept of fate to an aspect of established religion is a quite small way of looking at such a powerful notion.

 

[twylight]

Ah, but fate is another word for predestination which is a religious concept and one that factors into every religious denomination and sect, not just Western ones. 'Fate' itself is spoken of and personified in many ancient religions

 

[The Question]

Fate isn't inherently religious in nature. The two concepts can exist without the other. I know plenty of people who believe in fate, or some cosmic connection, without looking at it from religion-tinted glasses. To limit the concept of fate to an aspect of established religion is a quite small way of looking at such a powerful notion.

That's really a semantic argument, though. At it's core, any argument over religion is about two things: Wether or not some kind of higher power exists, and what the nature of that higher power specifically is. Any Fate VS. Free Will argument will will ultimately boil down to those two things as well.

 

[Spider-Who?]

Ah, but fate is another word for predestination which is a religious concept and one that factors into every religious denomination and sect, not just Western ones. 'Fate' itself is spoken of and personified in many ancient religions

The problem with using that word is the Calvinistic baggage that people ascribe to it.

I'm not disqualifying what others have said concerning the ease at which this could devolve into yet another *enter major religion here* v. atheist debate. I'm just saying that this topic is capable of avoiding it; much more than others are giving credit to.

Of course, giving the topic credit to avoid it is vastly different than giving posters credit to do the same...

 

[SpideyVille]

A story that usually comes to mind when thinking about fate and free will is the story of Oedipus, and how despite his parent's attempt to prevent a prophecy from being fulfilled, it still happened in ways that they never expected. It's been a while since I read it, but I don't believe their was ever anything religious behind it.

I guess a better way to phrase the question would be, if you could see something that happens in the future, do you think you can do something to prevent it, or do you think it will happen no matter what people do to change it?

 

[Wolfwood]

 

[Alistair]

"I will choose a path that's clear
I will choose freewill."

-Neil Peart of Rush, Freewill


Enough said. =D Good song too!

 

[E-Man]

Ah, but fate is another word for predestination which is a religious concept and one that factors into every religious denomination and sect, not just Western ones. 'Fate' itself is spoken of and personified in many ancient religions

^Sexy.

For me I'll try not to tread into religious ground because I supposedly have a demon in me according to my aunt.

Like it was said in Terminator 2, there is no fate but what we make. Even when I was a Christian I didn't believe that my every actions were predetermined by my god. Why would a creator want to do that anyway? Part of creation is the unpredictability of what you created. If there was a god I'm sure that he/she would get bored with making organisms do things all across the universe.

The universe is too vast and unpredictable for everything we do to be locked down by fate. We are very small and insignificant creatures to a grand setting that has grown for so long that we couldn't even see the beginning or end of our universe if we tried. Fate would have gotten bored with us a long time ago, and it would be way into some galaxy billions of light years away by now. I think we chart our own course, and that is infinitely more fun and satisfying.

 

[Valaquen]

I'm a compatabilist myself. I believe that certain things are dictated, not necessarily by a higher power, but by the laws of the universe that have been rolling in motion for billions of years. The ole knock-on effect of which I'm merely a domino. I have limited ability to choose, but the direction I choose is largely mine.

That's a belief, it may not necessarily be true. Hardline determinists will say that if your movements and decisions aren't motivated by something beyond your control [fate]then they're merely random, and couldn't be called 'choices' either way.

 

[moviedoors]

Fate isn't inherently religious in nature. The two concepts can exist without the other. I know plenty of people who believe in fate, or some cosmic connection, without looking at it from religion-tinted glasses. To limit the concept of fate to an aspect of established religion is a quite small way of looking at such a powerful notion.

Would these people describe themselves as spiritual?

Same thing.

That said, I've got some contradictory notions about the whole idea. I don't believe in fate in a religious or spiritual sort of way and I don't really buy the notion of determinism either. But, biological determinism I think there might be some truth to. Author/former biologist Peter Watts' novel Blindsight shook my ideas of free will. It's a crazy hard sci-fi novel with genetically cloned vampires, huge ships, black gas giants, and incomprehensible aliens, but what it's actually about is free will, and in his view, we have less of it than we think, and his answer lies in the subconscious. The subconscious is what actually makes our decisions for us, while our conscious selves, our "I's," sit on top, using a tiny percentage of the brain power, convincing itself that it's the one making the decisions. Think of how many things you do that you do automatically. When you open a browser and accidentally go where you usually first start clicking instead of what you actually meant to do. Or driving a car. After the first couple of months, driving becomes a largely subconscious act. Or playing an instrument. Or when we say things without thinking. That's not to mention all the hundreds of tiny bodily functions we perform without having to think about them. This self aware part of our brains has convinced itself it's so cool and the be-all, end-all. It thinks it's in charge, but the subconscious is actually steering the boat. Who we are is more determined by our biology and genetics, the sociological imprinting our brains make permanently when we learn language and culture (thanks Neal Stephenson and Snow Crach) than our egos are willing to admit.

This isn't a completely supported idea (yet), but I have to say, once I finished the novel, I couldn't get the idea out of my head. It shook my worldview. It's an idea that takes away some of our potential free will but without filling the hole with religious or spiritual reassurances. The thought still unnerves me, despite how much it appeals to my personal sense of logic, and I haven't entirely reconciled my beliefs on the matter.

 

[Spider-Who?]

Would these people describe themselves as spiritual?

Same thing.

The answer is no.

Not the same thing.

 

[Kane52630]

I think this pretty much covers up my response to this discussion.
[YT]ussCHoQttyQ[/YT]

 

[moviedoors]

The answer is no.

Not the same thing.

Then in what sense do they believe in fate? I'm really at a loss to understand how these people can profess a belief in fate and predestination without invoking something metaphysical, supernatural. Unless they subscribe to the idea I posted in my edit, but I seriously doubt that. It would shock me if such a fringe idea was being that widely accepted, though it would also delight me.

Seriously, how do they explain their belief? I'm genuinely curious.

 

[Spider-Who?]

Off the top of my head, one person has not been able to articulate WHY the believe in fate, but it is certainly not a spiritual reason because they do not consider themselves to be spiritual in the slightest. I've had room mates whom believed that we and our lives are merely nothing more than what could be described as "atoms" in the universe, and that our actions are prescribed by the fluctuations of the forces within it. I've also had discussions with some one who believed that much of what occurs in our life comes down to the science of chaos theory - not exactly "fate", but still something larger than ourselves that dictates events.

 

[Hobgoblin]

I believe in both fate and free will. Some things in life are out of our control and some things are not. Someone born in Africa in 1900 would have a different life than someone born in England today. That person's life path changes even more, depending on their race, religion, gender, age, sexual orientation and so on.


Whatever conditions that are part of life in that place at those times will be a part of that person's life, even though they had no say in the matter. However, whether or not that person decides to struggle through the situation or to commit suicide is free will.

 

[Thebumwhowalks]

Well, one has all of those magical powers and whatnot, but against a killer whale? even a domesticated one? I honestly don't know how that fight would turn out.

 

[Manic]

I believe in fate, though not for religious reasons. I think time is cyclical. That's also why I choose not to get rid of my parachute pants.

 

[Sentinel X]

Then in what sense do they believe in fate? I'm really at a loss to understand how these people can profess a belief in fate and predestination without invoking something metaphysical, supernatural. Unless they subscribe to the idea I posted in my edit, but I seriously doubt that. It would shock me if such a fringe idea was being that widely accepted, though it would also delight me.

Seriously, how do they explain their belief? I'm genuinely curious.

Well if you just look at physics we see that time is considered a dimension. However since we are 3-dimmensional beings we view it linearly when in fact it isn't. So the past, present, and the future already happened...and that opens a whole can of worms: am i allowed to make choices if my entire future is set in stone and already happened?

Thats just one aspect to look at things without resorting to a metaphysical explanation.

edit: by the way I'm ambivalent. I think both sides have good arguments and you can never prove either side wrong. I tend to lean more towards fate though (although very marginally)

 

[Llama_Shepherd]

It's a very good question, and one that can never truly be answered.

From a scientific standpoint time is a dimension, something that you always travel into, like driving down a road. Could it really make sense to say the future doesn't exist yet? If you were standing on a beach, as the tide comes in and out, is it coming in and out of existence, just because it is or isn't where you are spatially? Of course not, and as space and time are actually the same thing, theoretically, the two should be the same, where your entire life is already planned ahead of you, but not just you, the entire universe, in a fixed, predestination timeline. And even better, the theory can be tested, through time travel, but only if you are a time traveller, and if you travelled to three weeks ago, nothing would ever be changed, because that was the only way events can transpire, crazy right? But along with that there is also the theory of a grainy space-time. Where if it is possible to time travel that the universe compensates around you and is built and changed around what you edit. However the likes of us finding out aren't very likely.