Individual films... What about villains?

[thorstone]

Assuming Wonder Woman and The Flash are geared up for individual films to set up a Justice League feature-- what are the villains for these characters that moviegoers are going to care about?

There is a whole list of awesome Batman villains that aren't going to be used by Nolan. Characters like Riddler or Mr. Freeze can bring a lot of color and name recognition to a Flash or Wonder Woman film.

 

[Greens]

Any villain but Poison Ivy. She doesn't interest me in the slightest.

 

[metaphysician]

For Flash, he actually has a decent number of villains: even if you exclude the Rogues ( for being mooks with gadgets ) and Grodd ( for being a gorilla ), that still leaves Abrakadabra and Zoom.

Wonder Woman. . . is dicier. Ares would work, but for the life of me I can't think of a decent villain for a sequel.

 

[Cain]

Captain Atom is not a villain.

Wonder Woman. . . is dicier. Ares would work, but for the life of me I can't think of a decent villain for a sequel.

Circe, Cheetah, Giganta, Dr. Psycho etc. there is more to WW's rogues gallery than just the greek gods.

 

[metaphysician]

There are more villains, yes, but I have a hard time seeing them actually *work*. Circe, I suppose, but the rest would most likely come off as either totally random or groan-worthy.

 

[gugumugats]

For Flash, he actually has a decent number of villains: even if you exclude the Rogues ( for being mooks with gadgets ) and Grodd ( for being a gorilla ), that still leaves Abrakadabra and Zoom.

Wonder Woman. . . is dicier. Ares would work, but for the life of me I can't think of a decent villain for a sequel.

I think some of the Rogues can be "decent" enough to be "pulled off."

Mirror Master and Weather Wizard are two Rogues with power levels high enough to be able to deal with the Flash.

Mirror Master is often disregarded for his "silly gimmick" but the versatility that many writers have given him (inter-dimensional travel, hologram/illusions, friggin laserbeams, self-multiplication, and mirror traps) really ups his threat factor.

 

[metaphysician]

The problem with Mirror Master is getting the audience to take him seriously. If his powers and abilities basically make him come off as a cartoon, it hurts the ability of the rest of the movie to be anything but camp.

 

[gugumugats]

The problem with Mirror Master is getting the audience to take him seriously. If his powers and abilities basically make him come off as a cartoon, it hurts the ability of the rest of the movie to be anything but camp.

I don't think he comes off as a cartoon any more than say Green Lantern or Cyclops.

Even without his teleportation abilities just make Mirror Master an optics expert who uses holograms to distract/fool the Flash.

 

[Anubis]

There are more villains, yes, but I have a hard time seeing them actually *work*. Circe, I suppose, but the rest would most likely come off as either totally random or groan-worthy.

Soooo, a sadistic misogynistic telepathic dwarf who does horrible things to women to get his jollies off is groan-worthy? I think you need to really stop and take a look at some of these characters before you write them off. Both WW and Flash have some of the more intriguing villains ever created. Especially Flashes Rogues. The Rogues are better than Spider-Man's overrated gaggle of animal themed lunatics.

 

[Roose Bolton]

Hehe "gaggle"
But yeah the Flash has amazing villains, the Rogues when used together would be fantastic to see and Grodd has the potential to be a truly terrifying villain, just look at how well Rise of the Planet of the apes did with similar characters.

 

[metaphysician]

I don't think he comes off as a cartoon any more than say Green Lantern or Cyclops.

Even without his teleportation abilities just make Mirror Master an optics expert who uses holograms to distract/fool the Flash.

Optics and hologram expert, that works fine. Its the "walking through mirrors" and "creating reverse image clones" and other such stuff that would have an audience rolling their eyes. Which is sad, in a way; I *like* how Mirror Master is this rather terrifying refugee from the silver age.

 

[metaphysician]

Soooo, a sadistic misogynistic telepathic dwarf who does horrible things to women to get his jollies off is groan-worthy? I think you need to really stop and take a look at some of these characters before you write them off. Both WW and Flash have some of the more intriguing villains ever created. Especially Flashes Rogues. The Rogues are better than Spider-Man's overrated gaggle of animal themed lunatics.

I think it would take an exceptional amount of effort to not have Dr Psycho come off as an eye-roller of a villain. A sadistic misogynistic telepathic dwarf could very easily come off as some kind of really flat feminist tract parody. That said, I admit I am rather cynical about almost everything to do with movie adaptations of WW.

 

[MarvelKnight]

For a first WW film, I think Ares is the most logical. But before we talk about villians, hopefully they can get the actress and the actual costume right. If they come up with anything close to resembling the costume they would have had for the tv show, they should just stop while they're ahead.

 

[Roose Bolton]

For a first WW film, I think Ares is the most logical. But before we talk about villians, hopefully they can get the actress and the actual costume right. If they come up with anything close to resembling the costume they would have had for the tv show, they should just stop while they're ahead.

I've always thought that Ares done right could potentially be as big as the Joker. The guy is the absolute opposite to everything Diana stands for.
Also he's the God of War, who can top that?

 

[SuperFerret]

I hate so many of you.

 

[Anubis]

I know right?

 

[metaphysician]

I've always thought that Ares done right could potentially be as big as the Joker. The guy is the absolute opposite to everything Diana stands for.
Also he's the God of War, who can top that?

Lets not get ahead of ourselves. Yeah, he's definitely the strongest villain option available for WW. . . but there is no way any such villain is competing with the Joker. The simple fact that the Joker has been part of popular culture for 60+ years ensures it.

 

[ЯɘvlveR]

how about an origin story for darkseid?


I think It'd be a difficult sell, but I think it' be pretty cool.

 

[Llama_Shepherd]

Why can't there be a recurring villain?

Ares can be the force that corrupted Circe, who can be used in the first film. Then he can manipulate Medusa, and for a big finale, he can use Circe, Medusa, as well as creating the Cheetah, Artemis and Giganta from the Odyssey storyline while attempting to take over Olympus and Paradise Island.

With Green Lantern if (very big IF) there is a sequel, Sinestro can be used as a recurring villain. The second film can show his downfall and hopefully be much more character driven, show that Sinestro is not evil in the traditional sense, he genuinely wishes to do good, but does it through evil measures, and then show his fall to the yellow ring, and his expulsion from the Corps. Then for a third film, base it on the Sinestro Corps War.

Superman, he should have Metallo and Brainiac for his sequel, with Lex as a tertiary villain, really up the threat factor in physical scale. For his third installment, Darkseid and Luthor.

Batman, is a little trickier, his best rogues (in my opinion) are half gone now. The first film could revolve around Black Mask and Penguin, show how the freaks and the mob have merged, the second film should have Riddler and Hush, and the third Hugo Strange and Joker.

Flash, obviously has his Rogues, and each of them are more than capable of carrying their own film. A film loosely based on Flash: Fastest Man Alive could work quite well.

 

[thorstone]

Wonder Woman could be used to set up the Justice League film and villains with her first film focused around The New Gods. Darkseid can be reserved for the Justice League ensemble film. Wonder Woman can have an epic fist fight with Kalibak in her feature.

Captain Atom could still be used for a Justice League or Wonder Woman sequel.

Flash could be the more human story; super hero secret agent, with terrorist villains.

If casting Penguin; I would shake the fat guy image with someone more like Wolverine in a suit and carrying a loaded umbrella:

I would cast a woman as the Riddler; a false flag terrorist working for the politician, Oswald Cobblepot.

^Cate Blanchett from "I'm Not There"

If portraying Mr. Freeze in a sequel-- I would see him as a serial killer that freeze dries his victims.

 

[metaphysician]

Nah, in a sufficiently fantastic movie to support him, best way to do Freeze is to straight out steal from B:TAS, and make him a sympathetic antagonist. Hell, thematically, that would even work in the Nolanverse, if you were willing to include a guy with a frozen wife.

 

[DrCosmic]

Lets not get ahead of ourselves. Yeah, he's definitely the strongest villain option available for WW. . . but there is no way any such villain is competing with the Joker. The simple fact that the Joker has been part of popular culture for 60+ years ensures it.

But Ares has been a part of popular culture since such a thing existed. ZING! But for real, Ares is at least an equally primal concept. If someone turns in a genius performance, he'll be right up there with Darth Vader, Joker and Hannibal Lecter.

Soooo, a sadistic misogynistic telepathic dwarf who does horrible things to women to get his jollies off is groan-worthy? I think you need to really stop and take a look at some of these characters before you write them off. Both WW and Flash have some of the more intriguing villains ever created. Especially Flashes Rogues. The Rogues are better than Spider-Man's overrated gaggle of animal themed lunatics.

That's the issue. The GA doesn't stop and take a look at characters. They get the one line summary, and if that comes down to guy with a heat ray, then how can they possibly ever regard him as a threat, no matter how well developed he is under Geoff Johns?

And yes, dwarf villains, especially misogyny poster boys are groan worthy. It's a very obvious 'see, he's trying to make up for something' thing.

For a first WW film, I think Ares is the most logical. But before we talk about villians, hopefully they can get the actress and the actual costume right. If they come up with anything close to resembling the costume they would have had for the tv show, they should just stop while they're ahead.

I disagree. Imho, Wonder Woman doesn't even need a costume if the story and villain are right. If all they have is a hot actress and a good costume, they're basically setting her up to be nothing more than a sex fantasy.

There are more villains, yes, but I have a hard time seeing them actually *work*. Circe, I suppose, but the rest would most likely come off as either totally random or groan-worthy.

Circe you suppose? She's a area control/manipulative character spinning out of the mythology. She's very much the anti-Diana and she makes cool monsters to fight. Incidentally, since she makes were-animals, Cheetah could naturally spin out of that and not be random.

==========

On the OP:
For Wonder Woman: Ares (mastermind), The US Military (manipulated) and greek monsters (Cannon fodder) for the first one; Circe (simple mastermind ala Joker), Cheetah (manipulated combatant ala Two Face) and some wereanimals (cannon fodder) for the second one; Baroness Von Gunther (hardcore mastermind), Captain Nazi (simple brute) and some undead Nazis (you guessed it, fodder) for the third.

For Flash: Dr. Alchemy (Shared origin) and Captain Boomerang (simple serial killer) for the first one; Rogues Captain Cold (mastermind), Heat Wave (comic relief mook), Weather Wizard (Powerhouse), Golden Glider (love triangle) and Captain Boomerang for the second one; Zoom for the third one.

For Green Lantern (so not gonna happen): Sinestro and small Corps for the reboot; War of Light (greatly simplified, ie one member of each color) for the second one; Darkest Night for the third one;

Superman: assuming there's a sequel, Lex (mastermind) and Metallo and Bizzaro (Both Lexcorp products); Brainiac and Doomsday for the third one. it's pretty clear who's the mastermind and who's the grub in each one, eh?

Batman: would love to see it go more hyper-real in the reboot. Black Mask (crime boss turned freak) and Man Bat (geneTherapy success) in the first one. Mad Hatter (Subsonics) and Killer Croc (genetic monster) in a Robin spinoff. Riddler (FBI Batman hunter bait turned real criminal) and Poison Ivy (genetic experiment) in the second one, and yes, Clayface (no idea how to explain him) and Penguin in a third one. And keep going from there.

Justice League: Shot as one continuous movie and then split into three ala Lord of the Rings. Despero for the first one as we establish the team, Injustice Gang for the second one and Darkseid proper for the third, with Darkseid being responsible for everything. Note, this can be done, even if Superman/Batman/Wonder Woman/Flash are not available. You can do a JLI-ish version with Booster Gold, Blue Beetle, any GL, Fire, Ice, maybe Aquaman and Martian Manhunter.

 

[metaphysician]

But Ares has been a part of popular culture since such a thing existed. ZING! But for real, Ares is at least an equally primal concept. If someone turns in a genius performance, he'll be right up there with Darth Vader, Joker and Hannibal Lecter.

Yes, but his classical portrayal is as a dumb thug who gets his ass kicked by basically everyone from mortals on up.

Circe you suppose? She's a area control/manipulative character spinning out of the mythology. She's very much the anti-Diana and she makes cool monsters to fight. Incidentally, since she makes were-animals, Cheetah could naturally spin out of that and not be random.

Eh, she has a good image, its more coming up with a compelling personality. "I hate men, just because" isn't enough. Now, if you did her as a sort of mythic femme fatale, who thinks she should turn the world into a matriarchy ruled by her, because mortals ( especially mortal men ) are easily manipulated fools. . . that might have some potential. Especially if you contrast her with Ares, by giving him no real desire to *control* the world, so long as blood is shed.

Which is, btw, why I don't think Dr Psycho would work; "I hate women, and am evil" doesn't really have much grandeur. The audience shouldn't usually like the villain, but they should be either eager for, or dreading, the villain's next act. I suspect that with Dr Psycho, the general response would be more "Punt the loathsome dwarf into the stratosphere and be done with him."

 

[The Guard]

Circe is essentially Wonder Woman's Loki. She's a very credible threat.

 

[thorstone]

The Greek villains aren't the direction to take Wonder Woman-- you guys missed the part at the beginning of the thread about villains that the audience knows or gives a damn about.