Interesting constitution rights dillema

[Ace of Knaves]

More pedophiles are white. Should they stop all white people? The Muslim group is waaay to broad to profile with any actual accuracy.

Yes I understand that. But in London, specifically East London who is more likely to be a terrorist? A white man or a muslim?

And no, that isn't being racist, that is ignoring politically correct BS and using common sense.

 

[Eggyman]

A lot of cops are just *****. If a cop really wants to nail you with something, you're getting nailed as they can find plenty of "loopholes" as well. Rights and laws only make the balance somewhat less completely in the cop's favor.

I agree; there should be give and take with the law to work for both sides... that is what it's there for. Point being, those who encounter it more, well, they learn how to work it. While others get nailed because they are clueless about it.

It works... sometimes it doesn't. But that can apply to anything apart from Katy Perry's boobs.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Katy Perry's boobs? *drools*

 

[Eggyman]

They always *"work"*

 

[wiegeabo]

No it isn't, not at all. Why would the police randomly stop and search a white man who clearly isn't a muslim when looking for terrorist activity? Doesn't it make sense that if they are looking for terrorist activity they should stop more muslim people?

Racial profiling, the way I've seen most people argue against it, isn't actually a bad thing.

Here's an example:
A man robs a house. He's described as a black man, mid-20's, driving a certain make and model of car.

In the same area, the police see a black man, mid-20's, driving the same make and model of car. It's not the robber, but the cops can't ignore him because he actually does fit the description provided. But somehow this is racial profiling because they stopped a black man. As if the cops would have a reason to pull over a white, or asian, or hispanic man, or a woman, even though that wasn't the description given.

Funny thing is, had the description been a white man, mid-20's, driving a certain make and model of car, no argument of profiling would be made for pulling over an innocent white guy in the same model car. But if they're a minority, that's sometimes the first thing claimed.



Now, in the Muslims case, randomly searching all Muslims because the current terrorist threat is from Muslims, is wrong. It's not the same thing as looking for a Muslim man for a specific crime in an area like the example above. This is randomly searching a person only because they are Muslim. The police had no reason to suspect the person of anything than being of a certain religion/race.

 

[November Rain]

ace, i don't like where you're going with this muslim thing. It's verging on just plain ignorant.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Racial profiling, the way I've seen most people argue against it, isn't actually a bad thing.

Here's an example:
A man robs a house. He's described as a black man, mid-20's, driving a certain make and model of car.

In the same area, the police see a black man, mid-20's, driving the same make and model of car. It's not the robber, but the cops can't ignore him because he actually does fit the description provided. But somehow this is racial profiling because they stopped a black man. As if the cops would have a reason to pull over a white, or asian, or hispanic man, or a woman, even though that wasn't the description given.

Funny thing is, had the description been a white man, mid-20's, driving a certain make and model of car, no argument of profiling would be made for pulling over an innocent white guy in the same model car. But if they're a minority, that's sometimes the first thing claimed.



Now, in the Muslims case, randomly searching all Muslims because the current terrorist threat is from Muslims, is wrong. It's not the same thing as looking for a Muslim man for a specific crime in an area like the example above. This is randomly searching a person only because they are Muslim. The police had no reason to suspect the person of anything than being of a certain religion/race.

I completely agree, that is what i've been trying to get across.

But yea, they shouldn't just search ALL muslims, that's not what i meant. I apologize if that's how it read.

 

[moraldeficiency]

Yes I understand that. But in London, specifically East London who is more likely to be a terrorist? A white man or a muslim?

And no, that isn't being racist, that is ignoring politically correct BS and using common sense.

That's assuming the fast growing religion in the world is comprised only of people with arabic descent.

As far as the "most dangerous" terrorists I don't know about that. It depends on where you live and who you deal with.

Also your arguments have a scary effect. Since a black person in the US is statistically more likely to commit a violent crime, does that make blacks more dangerous and therefore they should have less rights or be singled out for the betterment of society? It's also the rationale the Nazi's used to deal with the Jews.

Your family should not have been the victims of that prejudice. It happens but it's wrong and you should never be expected to just suck it up and deal with injustice. All that profiling really does is show the good people of that group (the vast majority) they aren't trusted. That breds resentment and eventually hatred because when you're the victim of enough injustice you eventually fight back. So you might save three people today by finding one terrorist with this method, but you've planted the first seeds of terrorism in one hundred decent people. You didn't make anything safer, you just saved today by selling tomorrow.

Police following the laws isn't ***** footing. Look we'd all be a lot safer if our lives were monitored 24/7 by the gov. Do you want that? It would save lives, I can promise that and virtually eliminate all crime, all you have to do is sacrifice all your individuality and freedom to gain a measure of greater security.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

ace, i don't like where you're going with this muslim thing. It's verging on just plain ignorant.

I fail to see how it is ignorant. The fact is, who attacked london on 7/7? Yea that's right, it was muslim extremists.

As I've said before, not ALL Muslims are terrorists, I know that. But at this precise moment in time, what terrorists pose the greatest threat to our country? That's right, Muslim extremists.

I just don't want to see another 9/11 or 7/7 because the police have had to worry about the politically correct brigade calling them racist.

 

[Eggyman]

A man robs a house. He's described as a black man, mid-20's, driving a certain make and model of car.

In the same area, the police see a black man, mid-20's, driving the same make and model of car. It's not the robber, but the cops can't ignore him because he actually does fit the description provided. But somehow this is racial profiling because they stopped a black man. As if the cops would have a reason to pull over a white, or asian, or hispanic man, or a woman, even though that wasn't the description given.

Funny thing is, had the description been a white man, mid-20's, driving a certain make and model of car, no argument of profiling would be made for pulling over an innocent white guy in the same model car. But if they're a minority, that's sometimes the first thing claimed.

That is absolutely fantastically stupid. So race isn't an issue? It is and will be while that exact thing goes on. It may be a law to protect a particular minority, but all that law does is keep the racial differences in place by treating people of varied colours and religions differently.

 

[moraldeficiency]

maybe if the police relied on say police work rather than hoping they can randomly pick arabs out of crowds and catch them on something we could make that the staple for stopping terrorism instead of water downed racism that has a boomerang effect to help terrorists in the future while at the same time decreases alertness to others who could then exploit that myopic tendency to do something really nasty? Just a thought.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

It's like a recent recruitment drive by the police. It was saying "Hire more minorities". So someone who is better trained is getting passed over just so the "establishment" can even out the numbers in the force.

It shouldn't be like that, people shouldn't be getting recruited because of their race. They should be getting recruited because they are better at what they do.

It can work the other way as well. Say a police force has 20 black officers and 20 asian officers but only 5 white officers. Should the police recruit more white people just because there is less of them? Of course not. It's the same principle.

 

[moraldeficiency]

It's like a recent recruitment drive by the police. It was saying "Hire more minorities". So someone who is better trained is getting passed over just so the "establishment" can even out the numbers in the force.

It shouldn't be like that, people shouldn't be getting recruited because of their race. They should be getting recruited because they are better at what they do.

It can work the other way as well. Say a police force has 20 black officers and 20 asian officers but only 5 white officers. Should the police recruit more white people just because there is less of them? Of course not. It's the same principle.

Completely disagree. First off it's a recruitment drive, they didn't say anything about lowering standards just targetting a group or groups that's underrepresented. The question you should ask yourself is why are they underrepresented. I'll use blacks as an example but this works with anyone. Are there less black officers because they aren't physically or mentally qualified? Of course not, there are less black officers because black people don't want to be police. Why is that? Because blacks don't trust the police (with history and millions of examples giving them ample reason for this). As a result blacks would be less helpful to police at every turn. I'd say this makes certian investigations pretty damn hard. How do you turn this around? First police need to stop being so racist (not all are, but the police in the US have a pretty damning history). Second you need to have actual black officers. This will make dealing with that minority much more managable and efficient and lead to more crimes being caught in less time.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Completely disagree. First off it's a recruitment drive, they didn't say anything about lowering standards just targetting a group or groups that's underrepresented. The question you should ask yourself is why are they underrepresented. I'll use blacks as an example but this works with anyone. Are there less black officers because they aren't physically or mentally qualified? Of course not, there are less black officers because black people don't want to be police. Why is that? Because blacks don't trust the police (with history and millions of examples giving them ample reason for this). As a result blacks would be less helpful to police at every turn. I'd say this makes certian investigations pretty damn hard. How do you turn this around? First police need to stop being so racist (not all are, but the police in the US have a pretty damning history). Second you need to have actual black officers. This will make dealing with that minority much more managable and efficient and lead to more crimes being caught in less time.

So what you are basically saying is this...

A white man who wants to be a policeman gets 90 out of 100 questions right on his test (dunno bout the tests, just a example).

A black man who wants to be a policeman gets 70 out of 100 questions right on his test.

But because there is less black policemen on this force, the white man get's passed over even though he has proved that he is better trained?

Bollox.

And that can work the other way as well, it shouldn't be nothing to do with race. It should be to do with who is better qualified.

 

[Majic Walrus]

Yes I understand that. But in London, specifically East London who is more likely to be a terrorist? A white man or a muslim?

And no, that isn't being racist, that is ignoring politically correct BS and using common sense.

Actually a quick search shows that there were more terrorists attacks committed by the IRA than by any Muslim faction since the 1970s. Satistically you're more likely to be blown to hell by the Irish than the Islamic but that's not what profiling is about. It's not about statistics it's about fear.

Who are we most afraid of? Let's search them.

 

[BlackLantern]

The police in my area are just looking for recruits period....with a lot of upcoming retirements and a good number of police quitting, they need bodies, at least in my area

 

[November Rain]

I fail to see how it is ignorant. The fact is, who attacked london on 7/7? Yea that's right, it was muslim extremists.

As I've said before, not ALL Muslims are terrorists, I know that. But at this precise moment in time, what terrorists pose the greatest threat to our country? That's right, Muslim extremists.

I just don't want to see another 9/11 or 7/7 because the police have had to worry about the politically correct brigade calling them racist.

Well it's ignorant because the biggest threat to global society is...you and me.

the credit crunch was formulated by greedy middle class whites, it's probably caused far more instability than any terrorist attack has yet it's the muslim face who has caused it.

more people are going to be ejected from their homes, their jobs, everything they worked for and it's not the fault of any terrorist organisation.

yet we don't have any police profiles for those white men in black suits who are liable. Guess what, we take the fall by having taxes inevitably increase.

and they'll never tell you how many people have died or commited suicide from losing their own business because they don't want to hold corporate white west responsible.

muslims, you should be watching out for your nat west branch manager, that's who....

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Actually a quick search shows that there were more terrorists attacks committed by the IRA than by any Muslim faction since the 1970s. Satistically you're more likely to be blown to hell by the Irish than the Islamic but that's not what profiling is about. It's not about statistics it's about fear.

Who are we most afraid of? Let's search them.

Yea I also understand that. But "The Troubles" raged on for thirty years, of course there is going to be more attacks, it is in a longer time frame.

But at this precise moment, the start of the 21st century, it is Muslim extremists that are the danger.

Note that i said "extremists". Not just Muslims in general.

 

[wiegeabo]

That is absolutely fantastically stupid. So race isn't an issue? It is and will be while that exact thing goes on. It may be a law to protect a particular minority, but all that law does is keep the racial differences in place by treating people of varied colours and religions differently.

When the suspect is black, how is it stupid to actually look for black men who fits the description? Is it stupid to look for a white man who fits a given description? Or an Asian woman who fits a description?

And you notice that the description in the example wasn't a black man. It was a black man, driving a certain type of vehicle, in a certain location. Had the cops pulled over a black guy in a completely different type of car, then yeah, that would be crap. Because that's not who they're supposed to be looking for.

If the description was a white man driving a certain type of vehicle, then the cops better be pulling over any white guys in that area driving that type of car. And pulling over any white males in other types of cars would be just as wrong.


The thing is, if race is part of the description, then how can it be racial profiling to look for suspects of that race that match the description, regardless of what the race is? White, black, Asian, whatever, if someone matches the description, then they match the description.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Well it's ignorant because the biggest threat to global society is...you and me.

the credit crunch was formulated by greedy middle class whites, it's probably caused far more instability than any terrorist attack has yet it's the muslim face who has caused it.

more people are going to be ejected from their homes, their jobs, everything they worked for and it's not the fault of any terrorist organisation.

yet we don't have any police profiles for those white men in black suits who are liable. Guess what, we take the fall by having taxes inevitably increase.

and they'll never tell you how many people have died or commited suicide from losing their own business because they don't want to hold corporate white west responsible.

muslims, you should be watching out for your nat west branch manager, that's who....

Actually that is a great point. Very true.

But just for the record, I am not middle class. I am what people would consider "lower class". Whatever that means.

 

[November Rain]

So what you are basically saying is this...

A white man who wants to be a policeman gets 90 out of 100 questions right on his test (dunno bout the tests, just a example).

A black man who wants to be a policeman gets 70 out of 100 questions right on his test.

But because there is less black policemen on this force, the white man get's passed over even though he has proved that he is better trained?

Bollox.

And that can work the other way as well, it shouldn't be nothing to do with race. It should be to do with who is better qualified.

in the real world, ability doesn't equal effectiveness

it doesn't matter how proficient you are at medical care, if a rape victim comes in, she is 99% of the time going to wish to be examined by a female employee. So why have another male member of staff come on board where the demand is there for female staff. call it unfair but that's life. Life isn't fair.

 

[moraldeficiency]

So what you are basically saying is this...

A white man who wants to be a policeman gets 90 out of 100 questions right on his test (dunno bout the tests, just a example).

A black man who wants to be a policeman gets 70 out of 100 questions right on his test.

But because there is less black policemen on this force, the white man get's passed over even though he has proved that he is better trained?

Bollox.

And that can work the other way as well, it shouldn't be nothing to do with race. It should be to do with who is better qualified.

Again, you mentioned a recruitment drive, that's not giving someone an advantage when applying, that's going out of your way to see an underrepresented group has great access.

But I will say if your police force is nothing but white guys, you've got a massive fundamental problem on your hands. No other race is going to trust that those guys aren't there due to racism and none of them are going to trust the police to treat them in a fair way. This is going to make your officers performance suffer more than letting a guy that knew a bit less on a test in. So end result, worse police performance.

Now I will say it SHOULDN"T have to due with race, and in a perfect world it wouldn't but then in a perfect world communism would work and we really wouldn't need police, eh comrade? We don't live in a perfect world, we're here so we have to accomodate and adapt accordingly. A lot of people are racist, most don't admit it, but you can't tell me if I walked into the downtown police station and didn't see a black face not in handcuffs it was just a luck of the draw thing.

 

[November Rain]

Actually that is a great point. Very true.

But just for the record, I am not middle class. I am what people would consider "lower class". Whatever that means.

chav?

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Again, you mentioned a recruitment drive, that's not giving someone an advantage when applying, that's going out of your way to see an underrepresented group has great access.

But I will say if your police force is nothing but white guys, you've got a massive fundamental problem on your hands. No other race is going to trust that those guys aren't there due to racism and none of them are going to trust the police to treat them in a fair way. This is going to make your officers performance suffer more than letting a guy that knew a bit less on a test in. So end result, worse police performance.

Now I will say it SHOULDN"T have to due with race, and in a perfect world it wouldn't but then in a perfect world communism would work and we really wouldn't need police, eh comrade? We don't live in a perfect world, we're here so we have to accomodate and adapt accordingly. A lot of people are racist, most don't admit it, but you can't tell me if I walked into the downtown police station and didn't see a black face not in handcuffs it was just a luck of the draw thing.

Yea you are right. I do agree.

I just don't want to see skill at a certain job sacrificed just to please the PC brigade. You have to understand that right?

 

[Ace of Knaves]

chav?

No, i am not a chav. Even though I live in the chav capital of England. I think i have done well to not be infected by that disease