Is Batman a fascist?

[batbat_29640]

Just want to get some feedback on this one.

 

[The Question]

Nope. He's highly conservative, though. One might call his aversion to firearms and killing liberal, but that's a personal thing, really. He has a deeply rooted psychological problem with killing because he's been around death so much in his life that he certainly doesn't want to cause any more, and guns because a gun was used to kill his parents. I'm sure he supports the death penalty, and wouldn't ahve a problem with another hero killing a criminal if it were justified. Like, if they didn;t have any other choice, not simply going Punisher style on them.

 

[Tropico]

His picture was right beside the word when I looked it up in a dictionary.

 

[The Batman]

No, and anyone who claims that has no understanding of batmans character or his motivations what so ever, probably making half assed assumptions over what happened in tower of babel and brother eye....which werent even facist in nature, as he mainly did it to protect non powered people

IMO, of course

 

[The Batman]

And I doubt Batman's conservative. He dosent fit that mold, IMO. He donates charity to the poor to help them on their feet, whereas most conservatives believe you should do that by yourself. Not to mention he pretty much follows his fathers beliefs, which always seemed pretty liberal in nature.

 

[The Question]

And I doubt Batman's conservative. He dosent fit that mold, IMO. He donates charity to the poor to help them on their feet, whereas most conservatives believe you should do that by yourself. Not to mention he pretty much follows his fathers beliefs, which always seemed pretty liberal in nature.

Conservatives donate to charities too. However, there's a difference between donating to charity and giving a guy on the street five bucks. Most conservatives go by the saying "Give a man a fish, and he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish, and he'll eat for a lifetime." That doesn't mean, however, that they don't give money to inner city clinics and schools. Plenty do.

 

[The Batman]

Conservatives donate to charities too. However, there's a difference between donating to charity and giving a guy on the street five bucks. Most conservatives go by the saying "Give a man a fish, and he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish, and he'll eat for a lifetime." That doesn't mean, however, that they don't give money to inner city clinics and schools. Plenty do.

Personally, i dont see Batman as conservative or liberal. I dont feel he should be confined by political leanings.

But, if this matters, Batman was shown to be supporting a democratic candidate in Dark Detective

 

[The Question]

Personally, i dont see Batman as conservative or liberal. I dont feel he should be confined by political leanings.

Saying he's conservative doesn't confine him to political leanings. And really, everyone's got political philosophies, and Bruce's hardly seem moderate to me.

But, if this matters, Batman was shown to be supporting a democratic candidate in Dark Detective

Someone can be a conservative and support a democratic cnadidate. Especially if they feel that the democrat is highly inteligent, cared about the people, and would be able to deal with the job well while the republican was an idiot who was simply in it for the power inherent.

 

[Zeu]

Fascims doesn´t necessarily have to do with the death penalty, i´m sure there are plenty of fascists who are against it and some that are in favour.

Personally, I don´t think Batman is a fascist .
He does however have borderline fascist tendencies and I wonder if he´s aware of them.

One of the most notorious characteristics of fascism is its attempt to impose a totalitarian control over all aspects of daily life, be it social, political, cultural, you name it.

His obsession with control, the need to create a satelite to monitor metahumans (or in KC a force of Batbots that kept his city "in line") go a long way in proving his fondness for a totalitarian supervision of an orderly world with no crime, where no one steps out of line.

One of the greatest arguments against his fascist tendencies is the claim that Batman is a caring individual.
Well, this may come as a shock to some of you but apparently Hitler was a "caring individual" too, he loved his aryan race to bits.

Another argument is the claim that he´s only fighting crime, not trying to impose a political agenda on his town.
Well, fascist forces are often primarily born from the need to fight crime (and then later immigrants, the poor, gay or socially malcontent). They center their efforts in controlling the population, getting as much secret intel on it as possible and excising the elements that threaten the status quo. Ring any bells?

Alarm bells should start ringing when you hear the rethoric about "fear".
Scaring the criminals.
Fear is a very powerful force often explored by fascist regimes to control its population. And despite what you may think, Batman IS targeting the Gotham population, not only criminals.
He may occasionally go after politics and the high society but his primary target,the prey he stalks night after night from the rooftops is little Joe Public, from the worthless piece of trash who has no respect for ordinary people to the the man fallen from grace who has to resort to mugging people in the street.
And the fear he puts in those people is transmitted to his friends, families, children, a generation who will grow frightened of stepping out of line.
This is a trademark characteristic of fascist regimes, the fear it imposes on people. Out here in Portugal, many old people still cower at the name P.I.D.E. (political police).
"-You talk too loud ion the street, the P.I.D.E. will get you.""

"- You step out of line, Batman will get you."


At its core, I´m sure fascists think they are doing the right thing by exerting absolute control and spreading a veiled threat, all in the name of an orderly society with no crime.
But in the end what you have is a frightened population that doesn´t understand these "noble intentions":
All they see is one thing: oppression.

 

[The Batman]

And yet, most see Batman as a symbol of hope against crime. We might as well say EVERY hero is facist, since they too go after the little guy with no regard for anyone else, or the guy who has to resort to mugging on the street(supposedly....even though in Gotham there are programs to help the poor, set by...gasp...Batman himself). Most heroes want to keep there city in line. Are they facists too?

Batman, as I've said before, uses fear because he has no choice. When you're a human being who hopes to combat crime, you cant merely wear a flashy costume and run around beating people up. Fear is the only choice Bruce can use if he hopes to get anywhere. Batman only wants to scare CRIMINALS. It dosent matter if you feel mugging innocent folk is your only choice. as I've said before, Batman himself has set up programs and has even tried to redeem criminals. You do wrong, Batman will step in. and thats the way it is with most superheroes

 

[hippie_hunter]

I see Batman as more of an apolitical kind of person. Not a liberal and not a conservative. He just doesn't give a damn

 

[hippie_hunter]

I see Batman as more of an apolitical kind of person. Not a liberal and not a conservative. He just doesn't give a damn

 

[hippie_hunter]

And I doubt Batman's conservative. He dosent fit that mold, IMO. He donates charity to the poor to help them on their feet, whereas most conservatives believe you should do that by yourself. Not to mention he pretty much follows his fathers beliefs, which always seemed pretty liberal in nature.

Actually conservatives highly support private charities, it's government charity such as welfare, etc. that they oppose.

 

[Tropico]

Batman, as I've said before, uses fear because he has no choice. When you're a human being who hopes to combat crime, you cant merely wear a flashy costume and run around beating people up. Fear is the only choice Bruce can use if he hopes to get anywhere. Batman only wants to scare CRIMINALS. It dosent matter if you feel mugging innocent folk is your only choice. as I've said before, Batman himself has set up programs and has even tried to redeem criminals. You do wrong, Batman will step in. and thats the way it is with most superheroes

Ironically, almost all Elseworlds and imaginary stories I've read have shown an improved Gotham when Bats (or someone else acting as Bats) steps away from his dark methods. People who have taken on Bats methods have often been shown turning violent and walking down a twisted path that's had a tragic end. Bats intimidation methods doen't start and end with criminals; he's used it with other people that don't deserve it, most notably his comrades when he wants something done his way.

 

[The Batman]

I see Batman as more of an apolitical kind of person. Not a liberal and not a conservative. He just doesn't give a damn

Exactly. With all hes seen through his travels around the world and his battles, he dosent need to be bothered by such trivial crap as politics. IMO, I think the only time he really steps into the political field is when a candidate might have evil intentions.

 

[BrianWilly]

I'm sure he supports the death penalty, and wouldn't ahve a problem with another hero killing a criminal if it were justified.

He did have a problem with Wonder Woman killing Max Lord. He wasn't as horrified by it as Superman, but he very clearly disapproved.

And when Wonder Woman declared that Dr. Light should have been killed, he also refuted this. WW accused him of not understanding the situation, and he said something like "I understand it. I just refuse to accept it."

At its core, I´m sure fascists think they are doing the right thing by exerting absolute control and spreading a veiled threat, all in the name of an orderly society with no crime.
But in the end what you have is a frightened population that doesn´t understand these "noble intentions":
All they see is one thing: oppression.

When you're looking at Gotham City, though, the criminal element is so severe that Batman is hardly exerting anything remotely resembling absolute control. A little bit of control in a government of outright chaos can hardly be construed as fascism. I don't think any non-criminals actually look at Batman and think "oppression," I'd say that they'd probably be looking at him as the thing that's fighting oppression ie the criminal element. 'Cause if you think about it, Batman is a vigilante breaking the law, only sometimes workingly alongside with the police. In many ways, he's actually the one fighting against "the system" in Gotham City insofar as the obviously incapable system instigates rampant crime and corruption.

 

[CantThinkOfAName]

I thought he was a libertarian

 

[The Batman]

Ironically, almost all Elseworlds and imaginary stories I've read have shown an improved Gotham when Bats (or someone else acting as Bats) steps away from his dark methods. People who have taken on Bats methods have often been shown turning violent and walking down a twisted path that's had a tragic end. Bats intimidation methods doen't start and end with criminals; he's used it with other people that don't deserve it, most notably his comrades when he wants something done his way.

I think thats because, IMO, there was the whole period where DC wanted to make Batman into this completely unlikable, A-Hole control freak character, when most versions, including frank miller's, show him as more noble and saner than that.

 

[Zeu]

No one has said that he IS a fascist.
No one has even said that he´s the ONLY fascist.

But yes, he´s right there in the edge, hence the use of the word "borderline" for those few wha have developped the ability to see in more shades than black and white.

There are other superheroes with fascist tendencies, I´m sure, but we´re talking about Batman.
And Batman fills a particular niche because he goes one step further in his war on crime.
Most superheroes are firemen, they face threats as they appear.
Superman faces Toyman when he appears in town with a new gadget.

Batman sees threats where there are none.
He devises plans to take down allies. He creates satelites to monitor friends in case they step out of line.

And he uses fear.
"He uses it because it´s the only weapon he has."
Fear is one of the very first weapon fascists resort too. They want to scare people into line. It´s an excuse, because in the end fear always brings along its bosom buddy, oppression.
Batman shouldn´t have to use fear.
Captain America uses hope.
Green Arrow uses his skills.
And Robin uses his head.

Funny or not, the Gotham city population who sees him, dangerous creature of the night who stalks criminals remind me of the german population who looked at the nazi troops marching in the street with hope as the saviours who "would free them from the evil jew"

 

[The Batman]

Batman sees threats where there are none?

So a bunch of superheroes didnt mindwipe him and a bunch of other people, which is why he devised the satellite and the protocols in the first place?

By the way....Superman getting mindcontrolled by Max Lord pretty much justifies the protocols. Being smart isnt being opressive.

Also BTW, Cap is a super soldier, and I'm pretty sure GA and Robin dont have to handle HALF the threats Batman does.

 

[Zeu]

Another tidbit on the issue of fear and oppression.
He doesnt´use fear on criminals alone, he uses it on his own allies too.

Read the old JL books where pretty much everyone-not-MM were scared of just being in the same room as him.
A relaxed athmosphere with capes chatting would fall into line (and silence) the second he walked in, a dark cloud commanding fear.
Heroes would whisper and lower their voices near him.

These were not criminals, these are allies. Friends.

 

[BrianWilly]

Funny or not, the Gotham city population who sees him, dangerous creature of the night who stalks criminals remind me of the german population who looked at the nazi troops marching in the street with hope as the saviours who "would free them from the evil jew"

It's funny that you think this, considering that there's absolutely no comparison between the two

.

The Jews did not overrun Germany and threaten its people. They did not have a grand conspiracy to diminish the "spirit" of Germany. It was a lie invented by the state. When the Nazis marched in the streets at night, it was against a fabricated threat and what actually accomplished was very far from what they pretended to be doing.

Criminals, however, do overrun Gotham and do harm, steal from, or kill innocent citizens. This is the truth; no one made this up. When Batman goes out at night, he's fighting a very real threat and what he's hoping to accomplish is exactly what he's setting out to do.

Again, I'll reiterate: a tiny bit of control and order instilled into a pot largely overrun with chaos and lawlessness does not constitute fascism.

 

[Zeu]

Batman sees threats where there are none?

So a bunch of superheroes didnt mindwipe him and a bunch of other people, which is why he devised the satellite and the protocols in the first place?

By the way....Superman getting mindcontrolled by Max Lord pretty much justifies the protocols. Being smart isnt being opressive.

Also BTW, Cap is a super soldier, and I'm pretty sure GA and Robin dont have to handle HALF the threats Batman does.

So what a "bunch of superheroes" do justifies protocols for taking them all out? Paranoia is the trademark of fascist regimes, you know?

In the end, his protocols were completelly WORTHLESS agaisnt Superman and his satelite only served to trigger a new CRISIS.


BTW, Cap doesn´t have the superserum in his veins.
And if bat is being overwhelmed by the threats he faces, then instead of instilling fear in the hearts and minds of everyone, he could just allow a few metas in-town.
Or is he affraid the JLA will put him out of work?

 

[The Batman]

Another tidbit on the issue of fear and oppression.
He doesnt´use fear on criminals alone, he uses it on his own allies too.

Read the old JL books where pretty much everyone-not-MM were scared of just being in the same room as him.
A relaxed athmosphere with capes chatting would fall into line (and silence) the second he walked in, a dark cloud commanding fear.
Heroes would whisper and lower their voices near him.

These were not criminals, these are allies. Friends.

And? Have you ever thought that....GASP...He wasnt doing that on purpose?

Notice how guys like Hal, Clark, Wally, Diana, j'onn, etc....guys who KNEW Batman, were not afraid of him.

Batman is a no nonsense guy. If that scares some timid heroes, fine. But, its never been shown that he does it on purpose

 

[BrianWilly]

Another tidbit on the issue of fear and oppression.
He doesnt´use fear on criminals alone, he uses it on his own allies too.

Read the old JL books where pretty much everyone-not-MM were scared of just being in the same room as him.
A relaxed athmosphere with capes chatting would fall into line (and silence) the second he walked in, a dark cloud commanding fear.
Heroes would whisper and lower their voices near him.

These were not criminals, these are allies. Friends.

And he has admitted that this was a mistake.

And I think it's a bit of a stretch to say that everyone was scared of him, much less talking in hushed tones around him or whatever. Of the JLA issues that I read and events where heroes would crossover with Batman, the fear he instilled was used more like a running gag, an "office joke" of sorts that all the capes engage in. In the field, everyone trusted Batman. No one actually thought, "If I do something wrong, Batman's gonna get me" any more than they thought "If I do something wrong, Superman's gonna get me." Wally, Kyle, and Plas would constantly crack jokes about his demeanor right in front of him, because he acts like a big ol' stiff who never has any fun. Just because someone's a jerk doesn't mean that they're fascist.