Is Batman Insane?

[ultimatefan]

well I mean criminals in the sense of batmans rogue gallery. (Joker)

as for constant change, lottery there is a chance that it would change. But there is no chance for Joker to change and constantly putting him away even though there are numerous times when he has escaped (and even killed your sidekick)

I added some more arguments to my previous post. Plus, Batman can´t really do anything if Joker´s considered insane and won´t be put in the chair. If he kills him, he´s gonna be arrested and won´t make any more prisons.

 

[Mister J]

Someone said "One definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

Batman is always putting away the same villains but they always escape and run rampant.

That's far too much of an oversimplification. By that logic the majority of superheroes are insane. The same could be said for the majority of villains, since the heroes foil them with regularity. As often repeated as that saying seems to be, it's not close to having an unilateral application. So Batman (or practically any other hero) should either quit, starting killing villains or pray that the justice system does a better job or keeping repeat offenders incarcerated to be deemed sane by this line of thought? That doesn't make any sense.

Beyond that, how is expecting the same results? His actions aren't predicated on stopping the villain in perpetuity. He's looking to stop that harm in the present sense, which he's often successful at and has tangible results, be it saving lives, ending some corruption, etc. What does whether or not The Joker continues to commit crimes in the future have to do with attempting to help those who can't help themselves? Futility would be him expecting his rogues gallery to change after they've thoroughly demonstrated their behavior, instead of just trying to limit the harm they cause. I don't see how resigning himself to apathy or indifference would help classify him as sane just because the antagonists are beyond reproach.

 

[CaptainClown]

I added some more arguments to my previous post. Plus, Batman can´t really do anything if Joker´s considered insane and won´t be put in the chair. If he kills him, he´s gonna be arrested and won´t make any more prisons.

I am too lazy right now to check the other arguments, I am sure they are pretty strong and valid. Moving on, in realistic circumstances I don't think there would be that much of an outcry to linch batman after he kills the clown that has been terrorizing Gotham. Even if there was a percentage that wanted to get him, it isn't like he is going to turn himself in and the cops already know catching him is a bTCHI.

On a different note, the quote about doing the same thing is a sign you are crazy has many holes in it just thought it would be interesting to bring up. I think it sort of makes him an idealist though. He must believe that they will stay in prison.

Personally I believe Batman is crazy but in his later years of life when paranoia and suspicion secludes Wayne in his manor.

 

[BubbaGump]

In BB he clearly knows that his batman persona is just an act he plays.

My post was a joke. I do self-parodies every now and then.

 

[CaptainClown]

That's far too much of an oversimplification. By that logic the majority of superheroes are insane. The same could be said for the majority of villains, since the heroes foil them with regularity. As often repeated as that saying seems to be, it's not close to having an unilateral application. So Batman (or practically any other hero) should either quit, starting killing villains or pray that the justice system does a better job or keeping repeat offenders incarcerated to be deemed sane by this line of thought? That doesn't make any sense.

Beyond that, how is expecting the same results? His actions aren't predicated on stopping the villain in perpetuity. He's looking to stop that harm in the present sense, which he's often successful at and has tangible results, be it saving lives, ending some corruption, etc. What does whether or not The Joker continues to commit crimes in the future have to do with attempting to help those who can't help themselves? Futility would be him expecting his rogues gallery to change after they've thoroughly demonstrated their behavior, instead of just trying to limit the harm they cause. I don't see how resigning himself to apathy or indifference would help classify him as sane just because the antagonists are beyond reproach.

Well maybe all superheroes are insane. Look at Superman, they even addressed it in a Justice League episode where an alternate universe Superman lobotomizes the villains and in the end everyone fears the superheroes. All these superheroes have to be crazy to think that their presence might benefit the society. In almost every case it hasn't look at Watchmen or even Red Son. It becomes 1984. I really have no idea where I am going with this moving on.

 

[Ultraman Nexus]

Well maybe all superheroes are insane. Look at Superman, they even addressed it in a Justice League episode where an alternate universe Superman lobotomizes the villains and in the end everyone fears the superheroes. All these superheroes have to be crazy to think that their presence might benefit the society. In almost every case it hasn't look at Watchmen or even Red Son. It becomes 1984. I really have no idea where I am going with this moving on.

It's this kind of half-assed oh-so hip to be cynical view that has ruined the comics in the first place.

 

[CaptainClown]

Comics ruined? whu?

 

[Mladen]

Superman and Spidey wear red and blue tights, that makes them insane?

Batman isn't anywhere near the same social class as them, and he's unpowered. To them, with their limited financial resources, direct physical labor to fight crime is the best path open to them to fight crime. They also have powers which means their BEST chance to fight crime is to use these. Batman's nearest equivalent is Green Arrow, who I don't know a lot about so I won't comment.

It's this kind of half-assed oh-so hip to be cynical view that has ruined the comics in the first place.

We're just sick of superhero comics being the same simplistic moral fairytale but told in different pants.

I still believe Bruce Wayne is neglecting his father's good work in the worst possible way, forgetting the programs which could make thousands of people never want to turn to crime in the first place, instead focusing on all that physical/fun/empowering stuff which saves lives in the very short term. Its a personal vendetta against criminals not crime. Thats why I say he's deluding himself.

 

[ultimatefan]

I am too lazy right now to check the other arguments, I am sure they are pretty strong and valid. Moving on, in realistic circumstances I don't think there would be that much of an outcry to linch batman after he kills the clown that has been terrorizing Gotham. Even if there was a percentage that wanted to get him, it isn't like he is going to turn himself in and the cops already know catching him is a bTCHI.

On a different note, the quote about doing the same thing is a sign you are crazy has many holes in it just thought it would be interesting to bring up. I think it sort of makes him an idealist though. He must believe that they will stay in prison.

Personally I believe Batman is crazy but in his later years of life when paranoia and suspicion secludes Wayne in his manor.

Like I added later, the other problem is writers have a hard time coming up with new villains and Joker is too good to get killed off, so it´s more of the comics canon problem than Bats.

Nobody´s saying Batman doesn´t have serious issues, but he´s not insane as in hear voices in his head or multiple personalities or has children´s pieces in the freezer. If anything else, he´s channelled his dark, negative feelings into a more positive purpose than a lot of people would have.

 

[ultimatefan]

Batman isn't anywhere near the same social class as them, and he's unpowered. To them, with their limited financial resources, direct physical labor to fight crime is the best path open to them to fight crime. They also have powers which means their BEST chance to fight crime is to use these. Batman's nearest equivalent is Green Arrow, who I don't know a lot about so I won't comment.



We're just sick of superhero comics being the same simplistic moral fairytale but told in different pants.

I still believe Bruce Wayne is neglecting his father's good work in the worst possible way, forgetting the programs which could make thousands of people never want to turn to crime in the first place, instead focusing on all that physical/fun/empowering stuff which saves lives in the very short term. Its a personal vendetta against criminals not crime. Thats why I say he's deluding himself.

And Bruce DOES use his finantial resources through his social foundation, which fights the OTHER end of urban violence by dealing with social issues. He´s also being known to donate money to police - like buying vests for Bluhaven´s police force, in this pretty good story 24 Hours. Of course it tends to be downplayed by writers cuz it´s still an action/adventure comic and there isn´t much in a social foundation´s activities, but many recognize it as being vital for his mission. His Batman persona has a personal component, definitely, but it´s also a symbol, that, as he puts in BB, unlike a man, can´t be ignored or destroyed.

 

[CaptainClown]

Like I added later, the other problem is writers have a hard time coming up with new villains and Joker is too good to get killed off, so it´s more of the comics canon problem than Bats.

Nobody´s saying Batman doesn´t have serious issues, but he´s not insane as in hear voices in his head or multiple personalities or has children´s pieces in the freezer. If anything else, he´s channelled his dark, negative feelings into a more positive purpose than a lot of people would have.

well one time he did see the ghost of his parents and haunted by villains (Batman Haunted Knight) But thats just a certain story that shouldn't be taken to heart since it is a parallel of christmas carol.

It also would have a definite end if they killed off the villains, and most people like the villains so thats another thing. I personally would like it if Bruce was a little insane but thats just me

 

[Mladen]

And Bruce DOES use his finantial resources through his social foundation, which fights the OTHER end of urban violence by dealing with social issues. He´s also being known to donate money to police - like buying vests for Bluhaven´s police force, in this pretty good story 24 Hours. Of course it tends to be downplayed by writers cuz it´s still an action/adventure comic and there isn´t much in a social foundation´s activities, but many recognize it as being vital for his mission. His Batman persona has a personal component, definitely, but it´s also a symbol, that, as he puts in BB, unlike a man, can´t be ignored or destroyed.

Its a symbolic costume for sure... But if we're going to quote BB, remember they played up Thomas Wayne's charitable deeds as equally symbolic. Wayne Tower was to be a symbolic beacon, as was the mass-transit system. In a corrupt city, you could argue that somebody high up who actually cares and is dedicated to cleaning up the town and helping the little guys (Harvey Dent and Jim Gordon as well), has a stronger symbolic power than stopping the occasional crime and nobody really knowing about it except the one victim you saved, the one witness, and the one desperate criminal you hospitalised. The Batman outfit wasn't the only symbolic act open to him (given he could have continued in his father's footsteps), but it WAS the most personally satisfying choice since it means he can enact revenge on similar desperate people who robbed him of his parents and childhood.

As for being a symbol of hope, he hasn't quite picked the correct costume to do it. Superman's outfit is a symbol of hope, Batman's outfit is a symbol of fear (DESIGNED to create fear). The distinction between those who have to fear him (criminals) and those who don't (anybody else) isn't quite clear... Nobody ever seems to trust him at first, certainly not the police force or newspapers. If he's on OUR side, what has he got to hide? (Superman at least gives us a smile and a wink).

Bruce dedicates only a small fraction of his day to his charitable deeds, and he's hardly obsessed about it in the same way he's obsessed about perfecting his physique and crime-fighting skills. Half the time he's written as a spoilt jet-setting fop to keep from drawing the wrong type of attention to himself. He might sneak in a charitable deed here or there, but no more than the above average socialite who wants to feel good about themselves, and certainly not at the level of his father.

Goyer/Nolan correctly wrote Bruce this way in Batman Begins, but they also made pains to identify that his mission is very much at its core one about personal retribution, not some greater sense of civic responsibility. If it was civic responsibility with no personal motive, he'd do as his father did. But since his primary drive is a revenge which can never be fulfilled, he's attempting to find a middleground which meets his need for personal retribution/empowerment, as well as (kinda-sorta) following in his father's footsteps as symbolic beacon of hope for Gotham.

Spiderman doesn't leap around and stop crime to avenge his uncle, he leaps around because he knows that with his power comes a responsibility to help others because he has the unique power to do so. Batman HAS the unique power (money) but he's not using it. He's saving it to keep from drawing attention to himself, he's spending it on a new wing or a bigger plasma screen for the batcave (honestly, how big does the bat computer's screen have to be? all he does is project enormous photos of the villains on it and brood anyway).

If he wasn't about personal empowerment, he'd keep Gordon in the loop during his investigations, he'd allow the police use of some his vast lab/computer/oracle crime-fighting resources (he occasionally does, but its the exception rather than the rule)... he needs to feel indespensible in the ground-level fight against crime... If he really cared only for the city, he never would have left to brood over his own personal tragedy.

 

[ultimatefan]

Its a symbolic costume for sure... But if we're going to quote BB, remember they played up Thomas Wayne's charitable deeds as equally symbolic. Wayne Tower was to be a symbolic beacon, as was the mass-transit system. In a corrupt city, you could argue that somebody high up who actually cares and is dedicated to cleaning up the town and helping the little guys (Harvey Dent and Jim Gordon as well), has a stronger symbolic power than stopping the occasional crime and nobody really knowing about it except the one victim you saved, the one witness, and the one desperate criminal you hospitalised. The Batman outfit wasn't the only symbolic act open to him (given he could have continued in his father's footsteps), but it WAS the most personally satisfying choice since it means he can enact revenge on similar desperate people who robbed him of his parents and childhood.

As for being a symbol of hope, he hasn't quite picked the correct costume to do it. Superman's outfit is a symbol of hope, Batman's outfit is a symbol of fear (DESIGNED to create fear). The distinction between those who have to fear him (criminals) and those who don't (anybody else) isn't quite clear... Nobody ever seems to trust him at first, certainly not the police force or newspapers. If he's on OUR side, what has he got to hide? (Superman at least gives us a smile and a wink).

Bruce dedicates only a small fraction of his day to his charitable deeds, and he's hardly obsessed about it in the same way he's obsessed about perfecting his physique and crime-fighting skills. Half the time he's written as a spoilt jet-setting fop to keep from drawing the wrong type of attention to himself. He might sneak in a charitable deed here or there, but no more than the above average socialite who wants to feel good about themselves, and certainly not at the level of his father.

Goyer/Nolan correctly wrote Bruce this way in Batman Begins, but they also made pains to identify that his mission is very much at its core one about personal retribution, not some greater sense of civic responsibility. If it was civic responsibility with no personal motive, he'd do as his father did. But since his primary drive is a revenge which can never be fulfilled, he's attempting to find a middleground which meets his need for personal retribution/empowerment, as well as (kinda-sorta) following in his father's footsteps as symbolic beacon of hope for Gotham.

Spiderman doesn't leap around and stop crime to avenge his uncle, he leaps around because he knows that with his power comes a responsibility to help others because he has the unique power to do so. Batman HAS the unique power (money) but he's not using it. He's saving it to keep from drawing attention to himself, he's spending it on a new wing or a bigger plasma screen for the batcave (honestly, how big does the bat computer's screen have to be? all he does is project enormous photos of the villains on it and brood anyway).

If he wasn't about personal empowerment, he'd keep Gordon in the loop during his investigations, he'd allow the police use of some his vast lab/computer/oracle crime-fighting resources (he occasionally does, but its the exception rather than the rule)... he needs to feel indespensible in the ground-level fight against crime... If he really cared only for the city, he never would have left to brood over his own personal tragedy.

First of all, Bruce´s great power isn´t only money, he´s one of the world´s most talented criminologists, acrobats and fighters, and he puts those talents to good use.

Bruce HAS the intention of using Wayne Enterprises for greater good than just fighting crime, remember, in the movie the corporation was being handled by a ruthless man, it´s only at the end of the movie that he truly calls the shots in the company..

of course Batman is a symbol of fear for the criminals, and it is for practical reasons, it´s a fighting strategy, but the mysterious masked hero has a whole tradition in our culture as a symbol of the independent hero that fights a cruel system - Zorro was an obvious inspiration - so it´s not a stretch for him to be perceived as a hero in spite of his dark symbolism. Just look at our pop culture, where Batman is revered as a hero among kids.

The assumption that Bruce dedicates very small time to his charity work, like I said before, depends on the writer. Like I said, writers often downplay it cuz simply of the comic book genre, it´s Batman, not Philantropy Man, but it has been pointed out in several comics that his foundation work is of vital importance, much greater than an average socialite´s guilty conscience charity. It´s very inaccurate to assume he gives little or no value to it.

The movie clearly indicates Bruce´s mission has a greater sense of civil responsibility, it´s primarily personal when Bruce is just looking for revenge for his parents, but Rachel´s the one who teaches him that the city needs much more than a thug being gunned down.

 

[Mladen]

Those are skills he picked up because he's rich. He could have become the world's most talented weapons manufacturer etc. I'm sure if he'd channelled the money another way, he could have become the worlds most talented social rights activist or president or world's most talented dad. His talent is his drive, not the specific skills. I just think he thinks too small, which is proof that of the two drives in his life (personal and civic), his need for personal revenge is the greater.


Despite the black and the use of a mask, Zorro isn't exactly a frightening figure, but I can see what you mean. The comparison works when you compare Zorro to Year One Batman (fight the power).

I'd blocked out all of Katie Holmes' scenes from my memory of the film. But yes, as in Batman Begins and DKR and Year One, Batman only really works when he acts as a Zorro figure like you've mentioned. A figure against corporate/political/social injustice who acts outside the bounds of the law since the law itself cannot be trusted. I take issue with the character when the the world around him seems to be working just fine (60s Batman, and whenever he's only fighting supervillains for long stretches of time). In those cases he comes across as strange and ineffective...

 

[Ultraman Nexus]

We're just sick of superhero comics being the same simplistic moral fairytale but told in different pants.

Yeah and having the same "life is horrible and so are people" emo tale in different pants is so much better.

 

[November Rain]

The condition of Wayne's sanity is an issue that has been touched upon time and time again for the last few recent decades (since the 70s I'd say).

But what do my fellow Bat-Hypsters think?

Me personally, I feel that he is. I mean considering the circumstances he chose to place on his life how could he not be insane to some degree.

But it's a balancing act. Somedays I feel he's more insane and someday's I don't.

So what're everyone else's opinions?

CFE

batman is definitely insane, he's let his post-traumatic experience and irrational sense of responsibility take precedence and it's allowed him to believe working outside of the law is the best course of action.

or at least that would be the case in the real world.

he needs to deal and come to terms with his depression

 

[November Rain]

I'm sorry, but Batman has and always will be represented to me by the Animated Series. And in that, Batman is definitely not insane.

are you trying to tell me that the bruce wayne in beyond is not insane?

in the episode shriek when he was admitted, he told terry that he thinks of himself as 'Batman' in his head.

the same person who takes out kids on his missions and fell out with dick because of his methods and felt uneasy working the the JL which would ultimately help his overall cause.

The very same bruce wayne that when unable to continue as batman, became a total recluse to the world and ultimately felt like he was unable to function

The same bruce wayne who worked out he was the father of terry and kept it from him,

the same bruce who went on a week long war on gotham when tim got kidnapped by the joker in return of the joker

the same man who has sacrificed love at every corner for a fight he cannot win, because he isn't fighting the criminals of gotham (which many would argue wouldn't be there if not for him) but he's fighting an idea.

ULtimately i think batman has become what his parent's killer had become to him, a form of intimidation to get what he wants and that's a quick emotional fix.

If he doesnt tackle the root, he'll get deeper and deeper into this whole and that's when his insanity is more likely to manifest in a form we are more accustomed to.

 

[ultimatefan]

Those are skills he picked up because he's rich. He could have become the world's most talented weapons manufacturer etc. I'm sure if he'd channelled the money another way, he could have become the worlds most talented social rights activist or president or world's most talented dad. His talent is his drive, not the specific skills. I just think he thinks too small, which is proof that of the two drives in his life (personal and civic), his need for personal revenge is the greater.


Despite the black and the use of a mask, Zorro isn't exactly a frightening figure, but I can see what you mean. The comparison works when you compare Zorro to Year One Batman (fight the power).

I'd blocked out all of Katie Holmes' scenes from my memory of the film. But yes, as in Batman Begins and DKR and Year One, Batman only really works when he acts as a Zorro figure like you've mentioned. A figure against corporate/political/social injustice who acts outside the bounds of the law since the law itself cannot be trusted. I take issue with the character when the the world around him seems to be working just fine (60s Batman, and whenever he's only fighting supervillains for long stretches of time). In those cases he comes across as strange and ineffective...

Sure, but one can argue why anyone becomes a detective when his intelligence could make him a rich executive or a doctor or whatever, our calls in life ALWAYS have some sort of ulterior personal motivation, otherwise they´re just jobs to pay the bills. Plus, like I said, his foundation DOES have a strong reputation and takes a lot of his time, it´s just often downplayed in comics to emphasize the crimefighting action.

Yeah, and I agree. If Gotham was a safe place with a very efficient police force, Batman would be nothing but a weirdo.

 

[Mladen]

Yeah and having the same "life is horrible and so are people" emo tale in different pants is so much better.

Are those the only two alternatives you can imagine?

Nobody is advocating 'life is horrible and so are people' except Frank Miller's All Star Batman and Robin, and thats just stupid.

So in your eyes its either:

A) The world told in simple primary colors where some people are BAD and everyone else is GOOD and there are never any real choices to make because everyone deals in absolutes. Its appealing only if you want to reassure yourself by reading the same story over and over again but with different coloured capes.

B) Everybody is full of angst but otherwise fails to act like a real person. Gritty interior monologue galore. SHOCKING plot developments that usually just mean some character is killed off (which'll be retconned). The way a child might imagine a grown-up's life to be like.

Both are stupid alternatives, I'd rather read neither if possible.

 

[Newdawn]

Hi I'm new to all this so don't bite my head of or anything, but i believe that batman shows some aspects of insanity such as the need of duality. It could be said that with Bruce Wayne he is able the tred the line of the criminaly insane but never becoming one, he has a life outside the cape and cowl and is never fully inmerged in either, he can jump between the two as both have different atractions, Wayne is the rich​

Philanthropist and Batman, the Dark Knight who seeks those who pray on the fearful. If you take The Joker for example he has no alter ego as his former life has no attraction to him, as in this one has fame, power and fear.

 

[CFE]

batman is definitely insane, he's let his post-traumatic experience and irrational sense of responsibility take precedence and it's allowed him to believe working outside of the law is the best course of action.

or at least that would be the case in the real world.

he needs to deal and come to terms with his depression

But couldn't you then bring up the point made by Lee and Janet Scott Batchler that if Bruce were to come to terms, then Gotham would be lost to the criminal underworld?

They bring up a notion in the Features of "Batman Forever" that Batman has to remain psychologically fractured for the sake of the city.

Which in turn makes me think of the contradiction they made in their script for "Forever" by ending the film with Batman suddenly thinking that he's Batman because he chooses to be.

So Bruce chose to have his parents murdered so he could become a crime fighter? WTF? Bruce Wayne has this idea in common with FF's Ben Grimm...neither chose the paths that there lives took...

CFE

 

[November Rain]

maybe what they mean by choice is they have chosen to walk their respective paths based on the incidents that have helped shape them.


The thing about bruce is that he never tried to do it via law enforcement, he never joined the police and then realised that perhaps there are advantages to working outside the law, he just assumed that his way was the best way without any real insightful opinion. If he put the same amount of money and dedication to the cause working within the realms of the law where justice truelly can be served (instead of having criminals fall through the legal tape from batman being unavailable for questioning or evidence being aquired unlawfully).

Heroes are always created before villains are, they don't react to situations, they are pro-active towards their arch nemesis. It's there with bats, supes, spidey, fantastic four and others.

Ultimately i do believe that if there were no superheroes and only villains, they would end up killing each other off until the few can be picked off.

unfortunately most heroes put themselves in such a position that if they were to leave an area, the chaos would be far greater because of their interference giving them more reason to stay. Similar to a way a person who is on antibiotics is more heavily affected by a super bug than perhaps someone with a normal immune system is in relation to a normal one.

heroes and especially batman has created a self-fulfilling prophecy which does not allow him any peace and his continuous dedication to something he can never leave alone (and has taken over his entire life), i would describe as insane.

I mean how long would it take for a man in his position to truelly snap and become one of the greatest villains ever ultimately becoming that he wished to protect others from.

 

[CFE]

maybe what they mean by choice is they have chosen to walk their respective paths based on the incidents that have helped shape them.

Well the whole line goes "I'm both Bruce Wayne and Batman. Not because I have to be, now...because I choose to be..."

It just felt like he suddenly decided that he didn't have to be Batman but now he's making a conscious decision to be Batman.

The way I always saw it, Bruce suffered from his anger and guilt over Thomas and Martha's murders so much that he felt symbolically obliged to eventually become Batman.

He had to be Batman...for his sake as well as Gotham's.

Now, after making that statement in "Forever" (and you can see it in "Batman & Robin") It's like he's being Batman just for the hell of it. Like "Oh I have all this money and training and resources so I'll do it and I'll have women swoon over me and get to do fun stuff and fight bad guys."

I'm sorry Batchlers...but my Batman didn't choose to become Batman, nor did he choose to be Batman willingly.

My Batman is the slightly obsessive, semi-psychologically broken Batman that feels a deep emotional and psychological need to be Batman. He's driven to be Batman, and that's empahsized even more by the circumstances put on his life.

CFE

 

[Mladen]

But couldn't you then bring up the point made by Lee and Janet Scott Batchler that if Bruce were to come to terms, then Gotham would be lost to the criminal underworld?

They bring up a notion in the Features of "Batman Forever" that Batman has to remain psychologically fractured for the sake of the city.

CFE

you could, but I'd argue that a well-meaning philanphropist could have a very positive effect on a ****ty city. In BB, they make the point that Thomas Wayne built the Wayne tower as a beacon to Guide Gotham into the future, as was the cheap mass-transit rail system he built as well. Bruce could do the same. You could say it could never have the same effect as Bruce in costume as a symbolic 'savior' or Gotham, but if Bruce cut out all of his Batman time and devoted it to philaphropy and fighting social injustice, running for mayor etc, I could see him making the same difference.

 

[ab38416]

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