Is Catwoman a Hero or a Villain in "Returns"?

[TMC1982]

The way that she's written in this movie is very inconsistant. From one end, she's plotting to get revenge on Max Schrek (who is pretty much, the real villain in "Batman Returns") for pushing her out of that window. But on the other end, she forms an alliance with the Penguin (to eliminate Batman), for whom is in cahoots with Max Schrek. So shouldn't Catwoman, technically want to work with Batman, since they have in essence, the same MO, which is to bring down Schrek. Why would Catwoman want to help the Penguin frame Batman for murdering the Ice Princess, when her primary objective is or should be to battle Schrek and his associates (a la Penguin and the Red Triangle Circus).

It's as if, the writers wanted Catwoman to be a combo of a diabiolical villian (the whole "Lets frame Batman" subplot), anarcist (i.e. blowing up department stores), a twisted version of the women from the movie "9 to 5" (i.e. getting even with her jerk of a boss), and a costumed vigilante like Batman (i.e. when she says that woman from the mugger).

 

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

She is both... plus a whole lot more + thats the beauty of it.

Life isn't as black and white as 'hero and villian' and this version of the charcter is wonderfully complex.

She can't trust anybody, she's confused... not to mention mentally unstable. It's natural that she would be all over the place.

 

[November Rain]

she's isn't really any

she just goes to settle personal vendettas with schreck and batman.

if you cross her, you get scratched.

I'm surprised she never really tried anything on the penguin though, i would have thought she would have attempted to bring him down as well.

 

[[A]]

I'd say.. anti-hero.

 

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

I'd say.. anti-hero.

Im with ya on that one!

 

[Bat Attack]

She's all over the place emotionally so it's hard to say, for me atleast.

 

[The Joker]

Since she doesn't do one noble act as Catwoman in the whole movie, I'd say she's a villain. She was on a personal vendetta, and wouldn't tolerate anyone standing in her way.

 

[luke1234]

Shes like the Harvey Dent of Batman Returns,

The ending of the movie between the two characters was kinda similar to the end of the dark knight. Both are kinda fallen heroes. Catwomans so hot though i wish so much she was in the 3rd Tim Burton Batman. Such a good last shot.

 

[Drizzle]

Since she doesn't do one noble act as Catwoman in the whole movie, I'd say she's a villain. She was on a personal vendetta, and wouldn't tolerate anyone standing in her way.

Except for the scene where she saves the woman from being mugged/raped, even though her methods of doing so were...unorthodox.

 

[PyroChamber]

Now that I think about it, did she really have a reason for hating Batman? Sure he followed her after blowing up the department store, but was there any real reason why she kicked his ass?

 

[The Joker]

Except for the scene where she saves the woman from being mugged/raped, even though her methods of doing so were...unorthodox.

Oh I forgot about that. Although I think it was more to display her power as a woman over a man who victimizes women. "I just love a big strong man who's not afraid to show it with someone half his size".

Now that I think about it, did she really have a reason for hating Batman? Sure he followed her after blowing up the department store, but was there any real reason why she kicked his ass?

"Look, Batman napalmed my arm, he knocked me off a building just when I was starting to feel good about myself. I want to play an integral part in his degradation".

I think she was just on a vendetta to kick the ass of anyone who she felt wronged her in some way. I still think she was going to get the Penguin for what he did to her. She was lurking around at his public speech. She only cleared off when Batman ruined it by exposing Penguin's true nature to the crowd.

 

[PyroChamber]

"Look, Batman napalmed my arm, he knocked me off a building just when I was starting to feel good about myself. I want to play an integral part in his degradation".

I think she was just on a vendetta to kick the ass of anyone who she felt wronged her in some way. I still think she was going to get the Penguin for what he did to her. She was lurking around at his public speech. She only cleared off when Batman ruined it by exposing Penguin's true nature to the crowd.

True, but before what happened on that roof he never really did anything to her. Batman and Penguin both had the same look on their faces like "who the hell is this *****?"

 

[The Joker]

True, but before what happened on that roof he never really did anything to her. Batman and Penguin both had the same look on their faces like "who the hell is this *****?"

LOL! Yeah, but Batman did go after her after she blew up Schreck's Department store. He followed her up onto the roof, and that's when she kicked his ass.

 

[dude stannis]

She's a femme fatale. Basically any film noir leading female character, they have a sexual chemistry with the hero, often causing him to fall into dangerous situations they're neither heroes, nor villains but fighting for their own agenda.

 

[ronny]

I'd class her as an "Idiot."
If you're going to save someone, save someone. Don't then get in their face afterwards.
She was a moron who got pushed a litte too far, that's all.
All Burton's Catwoman ammounted to was a menta breakdown of a woman who probably wasn't all there to begin with.

 

[the_joker]

I love Burton's Catwoman myself. Although it's been a while since I've last watched it, what's left of the impression the film gave me is that Selina Kyle was a downtrodden woman who eventually snaps and in moments of increasingly regular madness, gives in to her alter-ego/split personality, Catwoman, that she has repressed all her life (presumably). This Catwoman personality is some kind of ardent feminist who seeks revenge on men who have wronged her all her life, including Max Schrek.

The Catwoman's target is men in general to start with, and she feels she is a hero to all of the women in patriarchal Gotham. I believe she alludes to this in a couple of lines in the film when she 'saves' the woman from being raped. Anyway, Batman epitome the macho culture that she hates and is trying to eradicate. Throughout the film she laments men in general usually with particular reference to either Batman or Pengiun. If I remember correctly, to start with, the daytime Selina Kyle is still timid to start with until the two personalities start to merge and the Catwoman personality eventually dominates. Nearer to the end of the film where Selina becomes more assertive and stronger-willed before the Penguin rudely interrupts the party with a bomb. But it's Selina Kyle who becomes (indirectly) the hero to Gotham in the end by removing the threat - Max Schrek.

Like DarkKnight90 says, the film is just showing that life isn't always black and white with heroes versus villains. The axiom - 'one man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter', sums up Burton's Catwoman. To start with she is a hero to women ergo a villain from a man's perspective. But she finds her 'way' in the end and realises that not all men are bad and that there do exist some good in the male sex - a la Bruce/Batman. So now in her seriously deteriorating mental state, she sacrifices herself and her relationship with Bruce/Batman to kill Schrek and end her reign in Gotham.

 

[Jokey]

She is both... plus a whole lot more + thats the beauty of it.

Life isn't as black and white as 'hero and villian' and this version of the charcter is wonderfully complex.

She can't trust anybody, she's confused... not to mention mentally unstable. It's natural that she would be all over the place.

Well said. I say this as well.

 

[El Payaso]

Now that I think about it, did she really have a reason for hating Batman? Sure he followed her after blowing up the department store, but was there any real reason why she kicked his ass?

Batman represented the macho dominance in Gotham society for her. This was shown in the scene where Batman saves her from a clown and then Catwoman despises the woman she has saved from the mugger, "always waiting for some Bat-MAN to save you. I'm Cat-WOMAN, hear me roar." His message is "Enough from lame damsels in distress waiting for the machos to save their asses."

But Batman was also outside of the officiality and the law - just like her - so she was constantly undecided about whether kiss him or destroy him for what he represents. That's why he fascinates her.

Batman was a whole challenge; physically and psichologically.

And she knows that Batman is more about sending Schreck to prison than to kill him out of revenge, as she wants.

It's not about Catwoman hating him or having something against him, but Batman represents for her both a most attractive/relatable figure and at the same time a symbol of things that are wrong in this world.

I'd class her as an "Idiot."
If you're going to save someone, save someone. Don't then get in their face afterwards.
She was a moron who got pushed a litte too far, that's all.

:facepalm

Yeah, and then if you're gonna save a city, just save it and don't dress as some flying mammal. The hell with those 3 complex interesting characters!

 

[El Payaso]

I love Burton's Catwoman myself. Although it's been a while since I've last watched it, what's left of the impression the film gave me is that Selina Kyle was a downtrodden woman who eventually snaps and in moments of increasingly regular madness, gives in to her alter-ego/split personality, Catwoman, that she has repressed all her life (presumably). This Catwoman personality is some kind of ardent feminist who seeks revenge on men who have wronged her all her life, including Max Schrek.

The Catwoman's target is men in general to start with, and she feels she is a hero to all of the women in patriarchal Gotham. I believe she alludes to this in a couple of lines in the film when she 'saves' the woman from being raped. Anyway, Batman epitome the macho culture that she hates and is trying to eradicate. Throughout the film she laments men in general usually with particular reference to either Batman or Pengiun. If I remember correctly, to start with, the daytime Selina Kyle is still timid to start with until the two personalities start to merge and the Catwoman personality eventually dominates. Nearer to the end of the film where Selina becomes more assertive and stronger-willed before the Penguin rudely interrupts the party with a bomb. But it's Selina Kyle who becomes (indirectly) the hero to Gotham in the end by removing the threat - Max Schrek.

Like DarkKnight90 says, the film is just showing that life isn't always black and white with heroes versus villains. The axiom - 'one man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter', sums up Burton's Catwoman. To start with she is a hero to women ergo a villain from a man's perspective. But she finds her 'way' in the end and realises that not all men are bad and that there do exist some good in the male sex - a la Bruce/Batman. So now in her seriously deteriorating mental state, she sacrifices herself and her relationship with Bruce/Batman to kill Schrek and end her reign in Gotham.

Brilliant.