JFK Assassination: 50 Years Later

[Spidey-Bat]

60% of Americans do not believe Oswald was alone. There is footage of a man, his wife and two children up on the lawn of the park face down on the ground. He heard the first shot, and then the third. He does not believe that all shots came from window, he says one came from over his shoulder. From behind him....a very compelling story.

Less than 1000 years ago, people believed the Sun revolved around the Earth. Today, a lot people believe in angels, even non-Christians and non-religious.

Facts are independent of whether people believe them or not. I'm not going to dwell on one eyewitness account, especially if he gave his account more than a few hours after. In that hysteria, I don't think any individual's single account would be entirely accurate.

 

[Schlosser85]

Less than 1000 years ago, people believed the Sun revolved around the Earth.

Because that's totally the same as a gunshot coming over your shoulder...

 

[souvlaki]

60% of Americans do not believe Oswald was alone. There is footage of a man, his wife and two children up on the lawn of the park face down on the ground. He heard the first shot, and then the third. He does not believe that all shots came from window, he says one came from over his shoulder. From behind him....a very compelling story.

Dealey Plaza has been described as a giant echo chamber. That could easily explain the confusion over where the shots came from and how many shots were fired.

 

[Spidey-Bat]

Because that's totally the same as a gunshot coming over your shoulder...

Way to miss the point of the second paragraph. I'm sure if you asked 5 other people there, you'd heard 5 different accounts of what happened or what they thought happened. As souvlaki says above, the acoustics affect where people think they heard it. Guns are loud, in the right environment, everyone can think it came from everywhere. I've seen more evidence that supports Oswald being the lone gunman and contradicts a second gunman from the grassy knoll.

 

[cjjr72984]

60% of Americans do not believe Oswald was alone. There is footage of a man, his wife and two children up on the lawn of the park face down on the ground. He heard the first shot, and then the third. He does not believe that all shots came from window, he says one came from over his shoulder. From behind him....a very compelling story.

Exactly. I'm actually pretty shocked people believe Oswald acted alone. Sometimes it's not about evidence that's there. It's about way too many coincidences that don't stand right with me.

That silly "Magic Bullet" theory, Kennedy's weird autopsy, Oswald's murder by Ruby, the fact that Oswald would've had a much better shot of Kennedy on Houston but chose to supposedly shoot him on Elm, etc etc.

Just too many weird occurrences that make me believe Oswald either fired one of the shots or none.

 

[souvlaki]

Exactly. I'm actually pretty shocked people believe Oswald acted alone. Sometimes it's not about evidence that's there. It's about way too many coincidences that don't stand right with me.

That silly "Magic Bullet" theory, Kennedy's weird autopsy, Oswald's murder by Ruby, the fact that Oswald would've had a much better shot of Kennedy on Houston but chose to supposedly shoot him on Elm, etc etc.

Just too many weird occurrences that make me believe Oswald either fired one of the shots or none.

The magic bullet theory makes a lot more sense when you realize Connally was not sitting directly in front of the President but slightly to the left, and Kennedy's seat was slightly higher. If you take the Zapruder film and look at the exact frame where both of them are shot and see how they are positioned computer reinactments show it's a straight shot from the Texas School Book depository, and that every wound lines up perfectly if the shot comes from that window in that position in Dealey Plaza.

As for why Oswald didn't take the easy shot, who knows. In retrospect it's always easier to say he could have just shot him when he was coming up on Houston but the fact of the matter is we have no idea what was running through Oswald's head at the time or exactly what he was doing at the time the motorcade was driving up Houston. Could have been second thoughts, could have been that he wasn't prepared yet, or it could just be that Oswald genuinely thought he had a better shot when the motorcade turned onto Elm. Restored footage of the moment Kennedy drove up Houston clearly shows someone in the window of the Depository but no gun so my guess is he simply wasn't ready yet. The footage unfortunately cuts off right before the car makes it's turn which is a shame because that camera man nearly got the entire assassination on tape.

Conversely, there has been recently restored footage of another home movie showing the grassy knoll at the time of the shooting and there is no evidence of gun fire coming from that direction, or even any people standing behind the fence so there is that as well.

Ruby killing Oswald also makes total sense when you think about how people reacted to the assassination. Everyone wanted Oswald dead. Ruby had access to the police station and took advantage of the situation. People do a lot of weird things when a national crisis such as this occurs. It's definitely not the first time a mentally unstable person opted to take the law into their own hands, and Ruby probably believed he would get a slap on the wrist and be hailed a hero.

 

[Thundercrack85]

I'm not saying there aren't ambiguities, there always are.

But in a situation like this with people panicking, their memories can be quite unreliable. Even Jackie Kennedy has admitted she didn't remember everything.

The fact that witnesses disagree on the number of shots fired really isn't surprising.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

The magic bullet theory makes a lot more sense when you realize Connally was not sitting directly in front of the President but slightly to the left, and Kennedy's seat was slightly higher. If you take the Zapruder film and look at the exact frame where both of them are shot and see how they are positioned computer reinactments show it's a straight shot from the Texas School Book depository, and that every wound lines up perfectly if the shot comes from that window in that position in Dealey Plaza.

And this is why I believe it was Oswald. People get confused and sometimes lie. Physics never lies.

 

[souvlaki]

I'm not saying there aren't ambiguities, there always are.

But in a situation like this with people panicking, their memories can be quite unreliable. Even Jackie Kennedy has admitted she didn't remember everything.

The fact that witnesses disagree on the number of shots fired really isn't surprising.

And that is why the older I get the less I buy there was more than one shooter. Most conspiracy theories rely on witness testimony, whereas most of the physical evidence points toward Oswald, and some other evidence ("back and to the left", etc.) has been since disproven. The key evidence from the House Select Committee that caused them to rule there was a conspiracy (a recording from an officer's microphone that records 4 gunshots) was also recently debunked. Turns out the sounds, whatever they were, were recorded a minute after the assassination and more than a mile away.

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

I'm not sure I believe in a conspiracy, but finding out about stuff like this gives me SERIOUS pause.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attempted_assassination_of_John_F._Kennedy

The attempted assassination of John F. Kennedy was due to occur on November 2, 1963 in Chicago, during a planned Kennedy motorcade from O'Hare International Airport to Soldier Field stadium. An FBI tip-off warning of a four-man conspiracy involving rifles with telescopic sights saw the Secret Service put a group of four men seen with such rifles and a map of the parade route under surveillance. The Secret Service apprehended two of the suspects, along with a fifth apparently unconnected person, Thomas Arthur Vallee, with strong similarities to Lee Harvey Oswald. With insufficient evidence to hold the suspects and two conspirators still at large, Kennedy's visit was cancelled with less than an hour to go. All suspects were released, and even after Kennedy's assassination on November 22 in Dallas, no further investigation appears to have been carried out.
....

An identical warning was telexed to the FBI's New Orleans office prior to Kennedy's visit there; the visit passed off without a hitch or any record of arrests.[1] Another assassination plot was set in train for a Kennedy visit to Tampa, Florida, on November 18.[12] On November 22, Kennedy was assassinated in Dallas.[1]
A few days after the assassination, NBC News in Chicago learned of Vallee's arrest, and a reporter drew on family connections to ask New York police to find the details linked with Vallee's car registration, 31-1ORF. He was told the registration was "frozen", with details only available to the FBI.[13]"

What the hell.....

 

[Thundercrack85]

...okay that is pretty weird. I'm going to have to do some reading.

I do question the reliability of that article though. Especially the first paragraph, which doesn't have a single citation.

 

[Kelly]

The magic bullet theory makes a lot more sense when you realize Connally was not sitting directly in front of the President but slightly to the left, and Kennedy's seat was slightly higher. If you take the Zapruder film and look at the exact frame where both of them are shot and see how they are positioned computer reinactments show it's a straight shot from the Texas School Book depository, and that every wound lines up perfectly if the shot comes from that window in that position in Dealey Plaza.

????

https://www.google.com/search?q=Ken...Kc2QX2iYH4BQ&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1152&bih=590

 

[The Question]

????

https://www.google.com/search?q=Ken...Kc2QX2iYH4BQ&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1152&bih=590

That's something of an optical illusion. The car they were riding in was retrofitted so that the front passenger seat was lower and more to the left than normal, so that the crowds could have a better view of the President.

 

[Spidey-Bat]

????

https://www.google.com/search?q=Ken...Kc2QX2iYH4BQ&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1152&bih=590

Connally was in front of Kennedy but sitting slight to Kennedy's left; they weren't lined up. Kennedy was also seated higher than Connally.

This result from your link illustrates the point.

http://frankwarner.typepad.com/free...-bullet-theory-versus-single-bullet-fact.html

This debunks the Oliver Stone Kool-Aid.

 

[Thundercrack85]

I'm going to see if I can learn more about this.

There were even strong similarities between Vallee and Lee Harvey Oswald - besides having similar "loner" personalities. Vallee, like Oswald, was an ex-Marine who had been assigned to a U-2 base in Japan. Both were employed at locations along the Kennedy parade route, both had expressed strong anti-Kennedy views, and both possessed rifles.

That's just... weird.

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

Also the Secret Service destroyed some of the protection survey records of his trips from the fall of '63.

 

[Thundercrack85]

This reminds me of the Three Tramps.

If that information is accurate, it is one hell of an oversight by the Warren Commission.

How the hell did they not go after this?

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

I don't know.

This makes me believe more in a conspiracy of the government trying to hide up incompetence and missed warnings after the assassination, rather than a conspiracy of complicity and involvement before. The former is something I can believe.

 

[Thundercrack85]

It is truly bizarre that the Chicago plot never came up. I don't know if that's incompetence, or deliberate, but it's pretty damn strange.

It would be strange enough if it had just been a plot to kill JFK, but the fact that it involves someone with so many similarities to Oswald?

I am going to have to read up on this.

 

[Spidey-Bat]

I'm going to see if I can learn more about this.

There were even strong similarities between Vallee and Lee Harvey Oswald - besides having similar "loner" personalities. Vallee, like Oswald, was an ex-Marine who had been assigned to a U-2 base in Japan. Both were employed at locations along the Kennedy parade route, both had expressed strong anti-Kennedy views, and both possessed rifles.

That's just... weird.

This doesn't seem like anything more than a coincidence though.

The military attracts loners because it gives them a sense of belonging to something. There were probably hundreds if not thousands assigned to a U-2 base in Japan since the country was occupied after WWII. How many businesses were along the parade route and how many people did they employ? I imagine it's a pretty large number. The idea that Kennedy was unanimously loved is fiction, there were people who didn't like him and lunatics who wanted to kill him as there has been for every President. Gun ownership is pretty common, especially for ex-military.

 

[SV Fan]

Gun ownership is pretty common, especially for ex-military.

You forgot and in Texas :P

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

This doesn't seem like anything more than a coincidence though.

Did you even read the article? Because that's one hell of a coincidence.

I'm about the farthest you can get from a conspiracy theorist, and I generally don't buy the JFK theories, but I think you're too eager to prove how logical you are by dismissing something so bizarre out of hand.

 

[Spidey-Bat]

I read it, but Wikipedia is a starting point, not a finish line, for information. All of it just sounds like the Lincoln-Kennedy stuff. It's a coincidence but the probability of it existing isn't miniscule when you analyze it further.

 

[Thundercrack85]

This doesn't seem like anything more than a coincidence though.

The military attracts loners because it gives them a sense of belonging to something. There were probably hundreds if not thousands assigned to a U-2 base in Japan since the country was occupied after WWII. How many businesses were along the parade route and how many people did they employ? I imagine it's a pretty large number. The idea that Kennedy was unanimously loved is fiction, there were people who didn't like him and lunatics who wanted to kill him as there has been for every President. Gun ownership is pretty common, especially for ex-military.

That's too many coincidences for me. But the fact that it wasn't investigated (at least not by the Warren Commission) is the part that bothers me the most.

Still, the facts don't suggest that Oswald was just a patsy. He did murder JD Tippit after all.

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

I read it, but Wikipedia is a starting point, not a finish line, for information. All of it just sounds like the Lincoln-Kennedy stuff. It's a coincidence but the probability of it existing isn't miniscule when you analyze it further.

That comparison isn't apt. Lincoln-Kennedy you're talking about names. With this, you're talking about shared personalities, experiences and backgrounds, which at least introduces the possibility that Oswald and this guy may have had some connection. Possibly.