July 2007 Sales Estimates

[PhotoJones]

Once again, Marvel trounced DC, scoring 7 of the top ten books for July.

- The Order debuted at 39, which isn't bad at all.

- Omega Flight #4 came in at 47, outselling loads of other Marvel's ongoings, yet is somehow not worthy of continuing.

- Irredeemable Ant-Man sells 11 slots better then New Excaliber and 17 slots better than Cable/Deadpool, yet it's getting the axe. Also, how the **** does X-Men: First Class get to continue? It's sales are abismal.

- Loners came in at 133. This one's not coming back, folks.

- Kirkman's Astounding Wolf-Man #2 sold astoundingly better then Invincible #44.

- The last issue of Spider-Man Loves Mary Jane came in at 214, selling just under 6500 copies. That's bad.

- Heroes for Hire did 25 copies better and it's not cancelled? How?

http://comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=11752

 

[Dread]

This could probably be merged with this topic:

http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=282091

Not in the mood to repost my statements from there. Although I might in a little bit, who knows.

 

[PhotoJones]

Oops. Merge or purge.

 

[Dread]

If you like I can answer your points with my own opinion.

Once again, Marvel trounced DC, scoring 7 of the top ten books for July.

- The Order debuted at 39, which isn't bad at all.

- Omega Flight #4 came in at 47, outselling loads of other Marvel's ongoings, yet is somehow not worthy of continuing.

- Irredeemable Ant-Man sells 11 slots better then New Excaliber and 17 slots better than Cable/Deadpool, yet it's getting the axe. Also, how the **** does X-Men: First Class get to continue? It's sales are abismal.

- Loners came in at 133. This one's not coming back, folks.

- Kirkman's Astounding Wolf-Man #2 sold astoundingly better then Invincible #44.

- The last issue of Spider-Man Loves Mary Jane came in at 214, selling just under 6500 copies. That's bad.

- Heroes for Hire did 25 copies better and it's not cancelled? How?

http://comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=11752

- The Order had a very solid debut considering it is a new franchise with new characters. Still, it will be a few months before we know the book's "level". It debuted around where Fraction's other solo effort, PUNISHER WAR JOURNAL, sells.

- To be fair, Marvel hasn't said that Omega Flight ISN'T getting an ongoing, although Kolins' leaving Marvel leaves half the creative team gone. However, I agree that Marvel is sitting on this. They outright DARED the fanbase to support OF as a mini to prove it could sell as an ongoing. Despite the franchise being on a downer for the last 15 years and starring a cast of B-Listers, every issue sold within the Top 50, when plenty of their ongoings can't tout that. And Marvel's response? Playing coy in interviews and using Collective/Guardian in a MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS arc, alongside Hellcat. Really, OMEGA FLIGHT and the readers proved it's existence. Marvel dared fans to put up, and they did. So Marvel needs to respond in kind.

- SPIDER-MAN LOVES MARY JANE doesn't need to sell well in the direct market, as the digests sell decently. One day someone will figure, "if a title sales like garbage monthly but decent bi-yearly in digest, why not just release it in digest form and save ourselves some paper and time; Japan does it and sells in the millions with some manga", and for the crime of thinking logically, he will be flogged.

- Sadly, THE LONERS could not imitate the success of OMEGA FLIGHT, likely because it had a lower tier creative team and it was the spin off of RUNAWAYS, which until Whedon rarely left the Top 80.

- HEROES FOR HIRE remains because it digs into one of the remaining errors-in-judgement of comics, and that is that cheescake alone sells. Which has been disproved by the abysmal sales of many comics that offered cheescake and nothing but in recent years. And Marvel is unwilling to let it go. I mean, SHANNA got another pin-up mini that will sell in the basement, didn't it?

- ANT-MAN only sold better in July due to WWH. Those other titles either have a stationary fanbase or have a big name creator from the past. ANT-MAN unfortunately keeps bleeding readers and aside for letter campaigns, it's doomed. But if Kirkman gets another Marvel ongoing, I'm sure Eric'll show up.

 

[PhotoJones]

If you like I can answer your points with my own opinion.

Oh boy, will you?

- The Order had a very solid debut considering it is a new franchise with new characters. Still, it will be a few months before we know the book's "level". It debuted around where Fraction's other solo effort, PUNISHER WAR JOURNAL, sells.

Fraction's name is heating up. Marvel released this at a good time.

- To be fair, Marvel hasn't said that Omega Flight ISN'T getting an ongoing, although Kolins' leaving Marvel leaves half the creative team gone. However, I agree that Marvel is sitting on this. They outright DARED the fanbase to support OF as a mini to prove it could sell as an ongoing. Despite the franchise being on a downer for the last 15 years and starring a cast of B-Listers, every issue sold within the Top 50, when plenty of their ongoings can't tout that. And Marvel's response? Playing coy in interviews and using Collective/Guardian in a MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS arc, alongside Hellcat. Really, OMEGA FLIGHT and the readers proved it's existence. Marvel dared fans to put up, and they did. So Marvel needs to respond in kind.

It's been heavily implied that Omega Flight's future lies in more minis. Take that response to mean what you will.

- SPIDER-MAN LOVES MARY JANE doesn't need to sell well in the direct market, as the digests sell decently. One day someone will figure, "if a title sales like garbage monthly but decent bi-yearly in digest, why not just release it in digest form and save ourselves some paper and time; Japan does it and sells in the millions with some manga", and for the crime of thinking logically, he will be flogged.

There's one reason this isn't the norm, and that's ad revenue.

- Sadly, THE LONERS could not imitate the success of OMEGA FLIGHT, likely because it had a lower tier creative team and it was the spin off of RUNAWAYS, which until Whedon rarely left the Top 80.

Yeah, hope is lost. Poor Cebulski.

- HEROES FOR HIRE remains because it digs into one of the remaining errors-in-judgement of comics, and that is that cheescake alone sells. Which has been disproved by the abysmal sales of many comics that offered cheescake and nothing but in recent years. And Marvel is unwilling to let it go. I mean, SHANNA got another pin-up mini that will sell in the basement, didn't it?

I don't get it, either. Khari's artwork on Shanna is wasted. No one will see it, and therefore no one will want to see more.

- ANT-MAN only sold better in July due to WWH. Those other titles either have a stationary fanbase or have a big name creator from the past. ANT-MAN unfortunately keeps bleeding readers and aside for letter campaigns, it's doomed. But if Kirkman gets another Marvel ongoing, I'm sure Eric'll show up.

I doubt Marvel's impressed with Kirkman. His books there have always sold below average, with Unverse X-Men being the only exception. And really, that's only because it's got an "X" on the cover.

 

[Dread]

Oh boy, will you?

Why not? We're not really arguing yet, are we?

Fraction's name is heating up. Marvel released this at a good time.

Agreed. He has slowly been getting some critical cred and his comics sell moderately well. Plus, THE ORDER has been entertaining with solid art and is sort of "realistic" without being too dour. I just hope it finds a steady level of readers quickly. If a new franchise starring new characters could remain in the Top 60 or better, that'd be good for Marvel. New blood is very hard to come by.

Of course, Slott's AVENGERS: INITIATIVE sells in the Top 15-20 and stars many new characters, but it also is on the Avengers/Initiative brand, and does have well known B-Listers on the roster. And Slott already had critical acclaim for SHE-HULK.

It's been heavily implied that Omega Flight's future lies in more minis. Take that response to mean what you will.

I take that to mean Marvel is miffed that they were proven wrong (like they expected OMEGA FLIGHT to sell nowhere near that well, perhaps justifiably considering how many other mini's starring B or C listers tanked) and the fans were right, and they'd rather possibly cripple this at the knees than see it take off. Because then they'd have to rethink their editorial strategy of, "anything a fan says is not to be followed".

In a more rational sense, it could mean Oeming has other commitments.

There's one reason this isn't the norm, and that's ad revenue.

But you don't get much of that if your book barely outsells ARCHIE anyway.

Yeah, hope is lost. Poor Cebulski.

And yet we can all think of absolute trash titles that sell better.

I don't get it, either. Khari's artwork on Shanna is wasted. No one will see it, and therefore no one will want to see more.

Guess he figures it beats an indie, and breasts are fun.

I doubt Marvel's impressed with Kirkman. His books there have always sold below average, with Unverse X-Men being the only exception. And really, that's only because it's got an "X" on the cover.

Don't forget the first MARVEL ZOMBIES mini, which was a regular Top 10-15 seller and helped spark this new franchise off a UFF subplot. He set the tone for the subsequent mini's. I think because of that he's been allowed to work his magic in other mini's, but they sold worse (he had MTU beforehand, which was allowed to end at #25 despite sales justifying it could have been axed sooner).

In terms of ULTIMATE X-MEN, it is a shame his best selling work is his worst. But perhaps is a sign of what plagues the market. So long as something has some steady fanbase, you can play musical chairs with creative teams or quality and they always sell. So little changes or is improved.

 

[PhotoJones]

Why not? We're not really arguing yet, are we?

The key word is indeed "yet".

Agreed. He has slowly been getting some critical cred and his comics sell moderately well. Plus, THE ORDER has been entertaining with solid art and is sort of "realistic" without being too dour. I just hope it finds a steady level of readers quickly. If a new franchise starring new characters could remain in the Top 60 or better, that'd be good for Marvel. New blood is very hard to come by.

Yep. Someone made a comment that this could be Fraction's Runaways. From a critical standpoint, that's setting the bar extremely high, but it's also something to get excited about. Marvel's done very well with allowing creative creators invent some really intriguing characters. The problem of course lies in the characters being able to catch on to the general fanboy community. Runaways was (and still is) a fluke, in my opinion. Here's to hoping The Order can take the torch it's been passed and run with it.

Of course, Slott's AVENGERS: INITIATIVE sells in the Top 15-20 and stars many new characters, but it also is on the Avengers/Initiative brand, and does have well known B-Listers on the roster. And Slott already had critical acclaim for SHE-HULK.

Critical acclaim be damned. These are spandex books and sales are the unfortunate bottom line. I'm convinced A:I sells like it does because of the name and the name alone. I'm just not convinced Slott's name can sell a book. Whatever the reason, I'm glad it does well. It's turning into a very good book.

I take that to mean Marvel is miffed that they were proven wrong (like they expected OMEGA FLIGHT to sell nowhere near that well, perhaps justifiably considering how many other mini's starring B or C listers tanked) and the fans were right, and they'd rather possibly cripple this at the knees than see it take off. Because then they'd have to rethink their editorial strategy of, "anything a fan says is not to be followed".

In a more rational sense, it could mean Oeming has other commitments.

That's true. He is drawing two ongoings at the moment and writing several others. But Marvel pays well and he's got a kid and a divorce. Sometimes the paycheck outweighs the artistic integrity. Plus, how could it not be fun to write that book?

But you don't get much of that if your book barely outsells ARCHIE anyway.

You get enough to cover the cost of production, and then some. Trust me.

And yet we can all think of absolute trash titles that sell better.

It's true now, and it'll be true in 100 years. This book just hits me hard. If there was any mini within the last few years that I'd kill to see as an ongoing, it's this one. Cebulski, Moline and Strain and a great team. I'll definitely miss them.

Guess he figures it beats an indie, and breasts are fun.

I think he makes the majority of his money right now on design work, which is great for him. He's talented and he's got a few different styles. Maybe we'll see him around again.

Don't forget the first MARVEL ZOMBIES mini, which was a regular Top 10-15 seller and helped spark this new franchise off a UFF subplot. He set the tone for the subsequent mini's. I think because of that he's been allowed to work his magic in other mini's, but they sold worse (he had MTU beforehand, which was allowed to end at #25 despite sales justifying it could have been axed sooner).

In terms of ULTIMATE X-MEN, it is a shame his best selling work is his worst. But perhaps is a sign of what plagues the market. So long as something has some steady fanbase, you can play musical chairs with creative teams or quality and they always sell. So little changes or is improved.

That's true. But the concept of Sean Phillips, Marvel and zombies sells itself. Kirkman's good script was the icing on the cake.

 

[King_Mungi]

- To be fair, Marvel hasn't said that Omega Flight ISN'T getting an ongoing, although Kolins' leaving Marvel leaves half the creative team gone. However, I agree that Marvel is sitting on this. They outright DARED the fanbase to support OF as a mini to prove it could sell as an ongoing. Despite the franchise being on a downer for the last 15 years and starring a cast of B-Listers, every issue sold within the Top 50, when plenty of their ongoings can't tout that. And Marvel's response? Playing coy in interviews and using Collective/Guardian in a MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS arc, alongside Hellcat. Really, OMEGA FLIGHT and the readers proved it's existence. Marvel dared fans to put up, and they did. So Marvel needs to respond in kind.

It's basically done. All hype and all publicity has passed now and Mike Oeming doesn't even want to write the team even if they asked. He wants to simplify his life which is understandable..

http://www.606studios.com/bendisboard/showthread.php?t=27737&page=26

Marvel dropped the ball, the series wasn't amazing but it still was a fun read definetly deserving it's own on-going especially compared to the other Marvel books out in the market now.

 

[PhotoJones]

As long as he doesn't rule out a Thor or Ares book, I'm down with him taking a break. He has my approval.

 

[King_Mungi]

I thought it was already confirmed he will be doing another Ares mini?

 

[PhotoJones]

Was it? If anyone's got a link to that, you should post it.

 

[Dread]

The key word is indeed "yet".

On the whole we have simular tastes about 60% of the time I would say. It's that 40% where things get nasty.

Yep. Someone made a comment that this could be Fraction's Runaways. From a critical standpoint, that's setting the bar extremely high, but it's also something to get excited about. Marvel's done very well with allowing creative creators invent some really intriguing characters. The problem of course lies in the characters being able to catch on to the general fanboy community. Runaways was (and still is) a fluke, in my opinion. Here's to hoping The Order can take the torch it's been passed and run with it.

Runaways is/was...different. Connected to mainstream superheroes but seperated for a lot of it, aside for guest appearences and the like. A good kind of different, played up all the genres at Marvel. THE ORDER is more mainstream; costumed superheroes, has Iron Man guest starring in #1, leaps off a Millar subplot from the 2006 event, etc. For the first 18 issues of RUNAWAYS, the only actual "mainstream" Marvel characters who showed up were Cloak & Dagger, and then very briefly Capt. America.

Still, Fraction has made The Order more his own than Millar's by "reorganizing" the team in #1. It's his baby and hopefully the world treats it well.

Critical acclaim be damned. These are spandex books and sales are the unfortunate bottom line. I'm convinced A:I sells like it does because of the name and the name alone. I'm just not convinced Slott's name can sell a book. Whatever the reason, I'm glad it does well. It's turning into a very good book.

Sales are the bottom line, but some hype and acclaim can help; it kept SPIDER-GIRL afloat this long.

A:I sells well for a variety of reasons; solid art (the guy did come off YA/RUNAWAYS which sold well and G.I. JOE which has old school appeal), that connection to AVENGERS and INITIATIVE which we know can boost books, and naturally Marvel promoted the hell out of it. Slott also brings some cred to it; people know he can be good for a laugh and knowing his Handbook stats. Fans have been begging for him to get more time and he is; landing this, ASM, creator summit meetings...he paid his dues, and now it is his time.

[QUOTEThat's true. He is drawing two ongoings at the moment and writing several others. But Marvel pays well and he's got a kid and a divorce. Sometimes the paycheck outweighs the artistic integrity. Plus, how could it not be fun to write that book?[/QUOTE]

I know...

You get enough to cover the cost of production, and then some. Trust me.

I'll take your word for it. Even if many ads are for other Marvel products...

It's true now, and it'll be true in 100 years. This book just hits me hard. If there was any mini within the last few years that I'd kill to see as an ongoing, it's this one. Cebulski, Moline and Strain and a great team. I'll definitely miss them.

Me too. In all honesty I'd rather see THE LONERS become an ongoing than OMEGA FLIGHT, and the grim irony is between creator issues with OF and sales on TL, I may see NEITHER get ongoings.

I think he makes the majority of his money right now on design work, which is great for him. He's talented and he's got a few different styles. Maybe we'll see him around again.

If he can draw breasts, Marvel'll keep him around. Or he can freelance for WIZARD art. Frank Cho's got to leave MA eventually, and who knows how long Bags is staying...

That's true. But the concept of Sean Phillips, Marvel and zombies sells itself. Kirkman's good script was the icing on the cake.

Maybe. I never cared enough for it past the #1 issue but I am saving that first print #1 for a rainy day. I can get over $30 for it.

It's basically done. All hype and all publicity has passed now and Mike Oeming doesn't even want to write the team even if they asked. He wants to simplify his life which is understandable..

http://www.606studios.com/bendisboard/showthread.php?t=27737&page=26

Marvel dropped the ball, the series wasn't amazing but it still was a fun read definetly deserving it's own on-going especially compared to the other Marvel books out in the market now.

That is unfortunate about Oeming and OF. Marvel dared fans to support it to make it ongoing, the fans for once obliged and now it won't get an ongoing anyway. It is like Zero on Roulette; everyone loses.

 

[PhotoJones]

On the whole we have simular tastes about 60% of the time I would say. It's that 40% where things get nasty.

That, and my need to play devil's advocate at times.

Runaways is/was...different. Connected to mainstream superheroes but seperated for a lot of it, aside for guest appearences and the like. A good kind of different, played up all the genres at Marvel. THE ORDER is more mainstream; costumed superheroes, has Iron Man guest starring in #1, leaps off a Millar subplot from the 2006 event, etc. For the first 18 issues of RUNAWAYS, the only actual "mainstream" Marvel characters who showed up were Cloak & Dagger, and then very briefly Capt. America.

Still, Fraction has made The Order more his own than Millar's by "reorganizing" the team in #1. It's his baby and hopefully the world treats it well.

Runaways the concept is/was a lot different then The Order. But I think the analogy fits okay. Both books deal with brand new characters with little to no interaction from the rest of the MU, while still firmly being planted in it. I don't know how long Fraction intends to stay on but the potential for this to be a significant run on a book is high. Oh yeah, and Barry Kitson, too.

Sales are the bottom line, but some hype and acclaim can help; it kept SPIDER-GIRL afloat this long.

Spider-Girl is the exception to every rule. We'll likely never see that again in our lives.

A:I sells well for a variety of reasons; solid art (the guy did come off YA/RUNAWAYS which sold well and G.I. JOE which has old school appeal), that connection to AVENGERS and INITIATIVE which we know can boost books, and naturally Marvel promoted the hell out of it. Slott also brings some cred to it; people know he can be good for a laugh and knowing his Handbook stats. Fans have been begging for him to get more time and he is; landing this, ASM, creator summit meetings...he paid his dues, and now it is his time.

Casselli's got some chops, but he's not a big name. His art is certainly solid and a great fit for the book, but I don't know if he's a household name yet. I could be wrong, though. I could be selling the fanboy community short by assuming they've got no taste past whatever artist is hyped this year.

I doubt it, though.

Me too. In all honesty I'd rather see THE LONERS become an ongoing than OMEGA FLIGHT, and the grim irony is between creator issues with OF and sales on TL, I may see NEITHER get ongoings.

It's the truth. Although, we've yet to see what The Loners does in trade/digest form.

If he can draw breasts, Marvel'll keep him around. Or he can freelance for WIZARD art. Frank Cho's got to leave MA eventually, and who knows how long Bags is staying...

Bags is on for the symbiote arc, then Cho comes back. I doubt Cho stays past the third arc, though. He's too slow, and Marvel would be stupid to keep letting a top ten book like this get bogged down by deadlines. Why sell 100000+ copies 8 times a year when you can do it 12 times a year?

Granted, that's basically the case with Astonishing X-Men, but in that instance, the creators are the book. If that's how Mighty Avengers was, Bags wouldn't be touching any pages to begin with.

Maybe. I never cared enough for it past the #1 issue but I am saving that first print #1 for a rainy day. I can get over $30 for it.

I salivate just thinking how much my all first prints of Marvel Zombies #1-5, Marvel Zombies vs. Army of Darkness #1-5, Marvel Zombies: Dead Days, and the upcoming Marvel Zombies 2 are going to fetch when I put them up for auction in one giant lot.

 

[Dread]

That, and my need to play devil's advocate at times.

Yeah, that too.

Runaways the concept is/was a lot different then The Order. But I think the analogy fits okay. Both books deal with brand new characters with little to no interaction from the rest of the MU, while still firmly being planted in it. I don't know how long Fraction intends to stay on but the potential for this to be a significant run on a book is high. Oh yeah, and Barry Kitson, too.

Never forget Barry Kitson.

If Fraction stays on THE ORDER as long as Vaughan stayed on RUNAWAYS, I doubt anyone would complain. I'd argue the concept would be easier to hand off seemlessly to a decent writer than RUNAWAYS has proven.

Spider-Girl is the exception to every rule. We'll likely never see that again in our lives.

We'll see. I plan to live a while.

Casselli's got some chops, but he's not a big name. His art is certainly solid and a great fit for the book, but I don't know if he's a household name yet. I could be wrong, though. I could be selling the fanboy community short by assuming they've got no taste past whatever artist is hyped this year.

I doubt it, though.

I doubt it, too.

A:I has dipped since the debut (started in the Top 10, now in the Top 15) and the tie-in with WWH has acted as a buffer to delay the shift that all books go through between launch and stable audience (much as the Initiative tie-in propped up NOVA #2-3, when most books see a sales dip). Considering that Marvel is promoting it as THE Initiative title to follow and fans seem to be enjoying it, I doubt it'd fall past the Top 30 for a bit.

I'm enjoying it.

It's the truth. Although, we've yet to see what The Loners does in trade/digest form.

I won't expect miracles.

Bags is on for the symbiote arc, then Cho comes back. I doubt Cho stays past the third arc, though. He's too slow, and Marvel would be stupid to keep letting a top ten book like this get bogged down by deadlines. Why sell 100000+ copies 8 times a year when you can do it 12 times a year?

Granted, that's basically the case with Astonishing X-Men, but in that instance, the creators are the book. If that's how Mighty Avengers was, Bags wouldn't be touching any pages to begin with.

Plus you have to remember that the X-Line is definitely the "B-Franchise" now that Marvel has focused on Avengers and related titles. Hell, Marvel caused the last spat of AXM lateness by yanking off Cassaday to do some other work (much as they caused Ultimate Secret to be late by yanking the artist off so he could do New Avengers and House of M).

But, yeah, Cho's slowness is likely part of the reason why MA is not selling as well as NA. On the sales charts they're close but in hard numbers, the difference is around 10k or more (which is almost twice SPIDER-MAN LOVES MARY JANE's entire audience). That, and cheesecake doesn't sell automatically anymore, and NA is more established. I'd be hesitant to shoot out any more Avengers books for now, since we seem to have about 4-5 floating around.

I salivate just thinking how much my all first prints of Marvel Zombies #1-5, Marvel Zombies vs. Army of Darkness #1-5, Marvel Zombies: Dead Days, and the upcoming Marvel Zombies 2 are going to fetch when I put them up for auction in one giant lot.

Yeah.

Guess this thread ain't getting merged, eh?

 

[PhotoJones]

Never forget Barry Kitson.

If Fraction stays on THE ORDER as long as Vaughan stayed on RUNAWAYS, I doubt anyone would complain. I'd argue the concept would be easier to hand off seemlessly to a decent writer than RUNAWAYS has proven.

Everything about Runaways has been an exception to a rule. I mean, who would've thought that a book about kids (who we'd never seen before) would become Marvel's best book? No one. Who would've thought that Alphona would become the artist he did after reading the first issue? No one. Who thought this book would survive cancellation like it did? No one. Who would've thought Whedon and Ryan could've ****ed it all up like they did? No one. Who would've thought Marvel would've taken the mess Runaways has become and made it worse by including Ramos? No one.

There won't ever be a book like Runaways. I still think the closest thing Marvel's got to it (besides Loners) is The Order, though.

I doubt it, too.

A:I has dipped since the debut (started in the Top 10, now in the Top 15) and the tie-in with WWH has acted as a buffer to delay the shift that all books go through between launch and stable audience (much as the Initiative tie-in propped up NOVA #2-3, when most books see a sales dip). Considering that Marvel is promoting it as THE Initiative title to follow and fans seem to be enjoying it, I doubt it'd fall past the Top 30 for a bit.

I'm enjoying it.

It's definitely the safest of all Marvel's newer titles. It won't be going anywhere for a long while.

I won't expect miracles.

I won't either, but the digest/trade market is a weird one. It seems to have an uncanny level of pull. I'm trying to not count it out just yet.

Plus you have to remember that the X-Line is definitely the "B-Franchise" now that Marvel has focused on Avengers and related titles. Hell, Marvel caused the last spat of AXM lateness by yanking off Cassaday to do some other work (much as they caused Ultimate Secret to be late by yanking the artist off so he could do New Avengers and House of M).

But, yeah, Cho's slowness is likely part of the reason why MA is not selling as well as NA. On the sales charts they're close but in hard numbers, the difference is around 10k or more (which is almost twice SPIDER-MAN LOVES MARY JANE's entire audience). That, and cheesecake doesn't sell automatically anymore, and NA is more established. I'd be hesitant to shoot out any more Avengers books for now, since we seem to have about 4-5 floating around.

True words. It's nice to see Marvel's cornerstones getting the spotlight. I'd have never guessed a Thor book would've been the top seller in a month. I don't even mind the two main Avengers books anymore. They both have their own voices and directions, and that's just enough without being excessive, I think.

Guess this thread ain't getting merged, eh?

Guess not. The quote-fest thrives!

 

[Dread]

Everything about Runaways has been an exception to a rule. I mean, who would've thought that a book about kids (who we'd never seen before) would become Marvel's best book? No one. Who would've thought that Alphona would become the artist he did after reading the first issue? No one. Who thought this book would survive cancellation like it did? No one. Who would've thought Whedon and Ryan could've ****ed it all up like they did? No one. Who would've thought Marvel would've taken the mess Runaways has become and made it worse by including Ramos? No one.

There won't ever be a book like Runaways. I still think the closest thing Marvel's got to it (besides Loners) is The Order, though.

I know the Whedon/Ryan run of RUNAWAYS hasn't been up to par with BKV's (but really, what could be), but I don't hate it as much as some. It is better (re: faster) paced than AXM, has a better story (time travel for Runaways fits better than, sigh, yet ANOTHER X-Men vs. Warlike Aliens schtick for AXM), and actually comes out more often, even though we've gotten about 3 issues in 5 months (had the book run on time, October would have been the 6th and last issue of the run, I believe). Still, it is not the same; Molly has seemingly become more annoying, and Whedon botches Chase from where BKV left him, which is a noted flaw as Chase is my favorite member of the team.

However, to say that the book didn't dip in quality would be a lie, and the inability to ship more than two issues without delay for a 6 issue run is disgusting, to say the least. And I have little hope for Moore & Ramos.

It used to be my #1 Marvel book. Now...it's merely nice when it comes out, and my expectations are lower. If I had to pick a favorite Marvel book now, it'd probably come down to a 4-way draw between IMMORTAL IRON FIST, AVENGERS: INITIATIVE, THE LONERS (a mini with 2 issues left, one coming next week) and NEW WARRIORS.

If THE ORDER can fill that void, that'd be great. Fraction definately has a lot of room to play with and it has great art.

It's definitely the safest of all Marvel's newer titles. It won't be going anywhere for a long while.

Most likely. Welcome to the A-List, Slott. While some of the same "bad old names" from a few years ago dominate, some other, deserving Marvel writers like Slott or Fraction are being stepped up.

I won't either, but the digest/trade market is a weird one. It seems to have an uncanny level of pull. I'm trying to not count it out just yet.

In theory it could sell around what RUNAWAYS trades sell since it is a spin-off from the same arc, but who knows. Ceb's X-MEN FAIRY TALES had an awkward premise and sold rather poorly, but that got greenlit for a sort of sequal, SPIDER-MAN FAIRY TALES. If THE LONERS don't get an ongoing, I wouldn't sneer at another mini down the road. Hell, I'd even take a one-shot or two. Works for the GLA/X/I. Although outside of the Runaways-verse, the only books that seem to acknowledge that the team exists were MTU for an arc that now is set in another reality (Kirkman's MK 2099 universe) and some of the CW Handbooks. Guess we'll have to see where the team ends up. For all we know they may split at #6 from internal tensions, as some obviously want to stay retired and some don't.

True words. It's nice to see Marvel's cornerstones getting the spotlight. I'd have never guessed a Thor book would've been the top seller in a month. I don't even mind the two main Avengers books anymore. They both have their own voices and directions, and that's just enough without being excessive, I think.

True enough. But still, they shouldn't push it. Overexposing the X-Men didn't do them any good. Granted, the Avengers have solo heroes who unite as a team so solo's don't always seem like a drain. Ironic that one could count Thor as an Avenger book considering he has been away from the franchise 3 years, and died in his own solo, and not there. It does make Marvel execs planning Thor's film smile a bit.

Still, we are at the thresh-hold now. No more Avengers books. Few franchises can sustain more than 4 or 5 titles well. I'll even include Batman & Superman.

Guess not. The quote-fest thrives!

Apparently.

 

[Doc Destruction]

Quote wars!!! ARRRRGH!

 

[PhotoJones]

I know the Whedon/Ryan run of RUNAWAYS hasn't been up to par with BKV's (but really, what could be), but I don't hate it as much as some. It is better (re: faster) paced than AXM, has a better story (time travel for Runaways fits better than, sigh, yet ANOTHER X-Men vs. Warlike Aliens schtick for AXM), and actually comes out more often, even though we've gotten about 3 issues in 5 months (had the book run on time, October would have been the 6th and last issue of the run, I believe). Still, it is not the same; Molly has seemingly become more annoying, and Whedon botches Chase from where BKV left him, which is a noted flaw as Chase is my favorite member of the team.

However, to say that the book didn't dip in quality would be a lie, and the inability to ship more than two issues without delay for a 6 issue run is disgusting, to say the least. And I have little hope for Moore & Ramos.

It used to be my #1 Marvel book. Now...it's merely nice when it comes out, and my expectations are lower. If I had to pick a favorite Marvel book now, it'd probably come down to a 4-way draw between IMMORTAL IRON FIST, AVENGERS: INITIATIVE, THE LONERS (a mini with 2 issues left, one coming next week) and NEW WARRIORS.

If THE ORDER can fill that void, that'd be great. Fraction definately has a lot of room to play with and it has great art.

I'm the camp of pretty much hating Whedon's take on the Runaways. The books is really about two things: characterizatio and hip art. Now, Whedon's the king of characterization and yet somehow he's managed to bungle everything and turn every single character into stereotypical archetypes. It's astounding at how bad he is on this book.

Ryan on the other hand makes pretty pictures, but they're not the right kind. Guys like Miyazawa and Alphona drew these kids in clothes and styles that kids wear. Ryan, just like how Whedon writes, draws them in sterotypical clothes that aren't any different from any other comic book.

Most likely. Welcome to the A-List, Slott. While some of the same "bad old names" from a few years ago dominate, some other, deserving Marvel writers like Slott or Fraction are being stepped up.

That's one area where Marvel's really doing a great job.

 

[Dread]

Quote wars!!! ARRRRGH!

Sorry. We were just expecting a merge with the link I posted above.

I'm the camp of pretty much hating Whedon's take on the Runaways. The books is really about two things: characterizatio and hip art. Now, Whedon's the king of characterization and yet somehow he's managed to bungle everything and turn every single character into stereotypical archetypes. It's astounding at how bad he is on this book.

Ryan on the other hand makes pretty pictures, but they're not the right kind. Guys like Miyazawa and Alphona drew these kids in clothes and styles that kids wear. Ryan, just like how Whedon writes, draws them in sterotypical clothes that aren't any different from any other comic book.

Alphona was also better at drawing teenagers as teenagers, not smaller adults.

I don't disagree on any of this. Maybe it helps that I usually find AXM slower and more repetitive. I get the feeling that Whedon genuinely loves the RUNAWAYS universe and franchise, but blind fan love doesn't always mean being able to write said franchise well. At 6 issues, he doesn't have time to resolve any kinks, either. The sales are slowly skidding with every issue and I predict by the time Ramos & Moore are on their 3rd issue the book may be back in the Top 80's where it was when BKV left; the question will be if it can stay there.

Definitely a case of "not as good as it used to be". But it could be worse. It could have been THE FLASH.

That's one area where Marvel's really doing a great job.

Yeah. I hope Jeff Parker gets some due on a decent title, along with Gage and I am sure some others I am missing.