Bought/Thought for June 23rd, 2010, with SPOILERS!

[Phaedrus45]

Expensive week, especially with a few books priced at $4.99. (It doesn't help that I get the Varient titles; so, I had two copies of Hulk and Superman in my file.) I even left a couple trades in my box this week: Essential Captain America Vol. 5 and the Batman original hardcover. I notice DC has quite a few original hardcover trades coming out in the coming months that I want to get. I just hate that they're kind of pricey.

Green Lantern Corps #48 & 49

Good start to the Revolt Of The Alpha-Lantern storyline. It's nice to be done with Blackest Night, and back to some separate adventures. I like the addition of Ganthet to the Green Lantern ranks; and, I really like that Bedard is addressing the Alpha-Lanterns existance. (And, also, like that Ion appears to be no more. I hate that character, and hope we're finally done him.)

Birds Of Prey #2

Delayed from last week, at least on the West Coast it seems, (Someone said they saw this in their shop last week...but, none of the shops in Washington seemed to have gotten it)...Simone's BoP looks fantastic. This artist does a great job, and the Birds are lookin' hot! The story is pretty decent too; as, Black Canary and her crew are being set up to look like the bad guys. Who's the mystery girl in white who dupes our Birds? My guess is it's Sin, who somehow got much, much older. In comics, when you abandon a child, they always come back to bite you in the end.

Fun book, which I am enjoying more than Simone's Wonder Woman or Secret Six.

Superman #700

This pricey, double-size anniversary issues just reinforces the thing that DC is doing wrong. They treat these books as throw-aways that don't compel a new reader to buy the next issue. It's just a few short stories that have absolutely no significance to future storylines. They did it with the recent Batman anniversary issue; and, they do it again this issue.

We get three stories. The first is by James Robinson & Bernard Chang, featuring Superman quickly facing off against the Parasite. That's the first eight pages. The last 8 pages are devoted to Lois and Superman kissing and fawning over their love for one another. It's way too sappy for me!

The next story by Dan Jurgens is from Superman's early years, where he helps Robin with some weapon dealers in Gotham City. It's the best of the three stories; but, sadly not worth the high price of this comic.

The final story starts JMS's run on Superman...and, made me groan the most. Supe's is having a press conference after the events in War Of The Supermen; and, some lady comes up and slaps him across the face. She tells him how her husband died of a brain tumor four days ago; and, she blames Superman for his death. Why? Simply because Superman was away from Earth and she couldn't get ahold of him to use his heat vision to remove the tumor. The rest of the story involves Superman being eaten away with guilt...even though readers of Superman know that he's come to terms with being unable to save everyone all the time. (In fact, this same storyline had been used in the last couple years within the pages of Supergirl...and, I believe Superman talked to her about not being eaten up with guilt over not saving a young child some affliction.)

The comic is worth reading for the second story; but, not worth buying because of the price and the other two sappy stories.

Wolverine Origins #49

Crappy issue, with most of it being a strange kind of dream sequence. We're suppose to believe at the end that Logan has just killed Nick Fury; but, that just ain't gonna happen. I just thought back to when this comic was suppose to reveal the secrets of Logan's past when it was originally solicited. Now, it's greatly deviated from that theme. It's been more about Logan's future; I wish it delved more into flashbacks. Of course, it's only got one more issue until it ends. Seems like it will end with more of a whimper than a bang.

Hulk #23

Say what you will about Loeb's Hulk, at least their $4.99 comic gets a reader possibly interested in picking up the next issue. And, I think even the casual reader or Loeb-hater might come away with an appreciation for this issue. Loeb does a great job of telling how General Ross became the Red Hulk...and, effectively takes us through Ross' past life and deaths to get a better understanding to his motivations for becoming the creature he's always despised. I loved all the various artists who partook in this event-issue, and was extremely surprised how much I enjoyed this issue. That surprise makes me have to actually give a Loeb comic my highest praise: t:

Ultimate Avengers 2 #4

I loved the first issue of this series; but, came away a bit disappointed with the next two. Issue four brings me back, as we get to see the Ultimate Avengers 2 take on Ghost Rider...and, we also get Ghost Rider's origin. This issue had a great mix of action and backstory, and I find myself very interested in what comes next.

Thunderbolts #145

Well, Zemo isn't who we thought he was. It's all a plan by Cage to test the new nanite system within his team of villains to ensure they can't access certain powers without special permission. I found the scene a bit lame; but, the second half of this comic, where the team finally goes on an actual mission, more than makes up for it. (They must take out three trolls who survived the destruction of Asgard, and who are reeking havok on Earth.) Some of the art is a bit distracting at times, especially the artist's interpretation of Songbird...but, his trolls and Man-Thing look fantastic.

While reading this issue, I can see some possible complaints by other readers; but, I just loved the second half so much, that I tended to ignore them.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Picked up Incorruptible #1-7 and am enjoying it as much as Irredeemable. Never let it be said that Waid does not know how to use superhero tropes in new and interesting ways. I was initially skeptical of Incorruptible's premise; it seemed way too easy that this dude would see a good guy go bad and suddenly decide to do just the opposite and reform. But the way Waid fleshes it out makes it perfectly convincing. Max Damage is a compelling and complex lead character--far more than the Plutonian, in my opinion, but that may just be because I've seen the "evil Superman" model a lot already, whereas the "reformed villain" idea is much less specific. I mean, I was going to say "reformed (specific villain)" right there and I couldn't even come up with any major villains who match up quite right with Max. Throw in his very complicated relationship with Jailbait and the corrupt Lieutenant Armadale of Sky City's police department, along with the parade of villains he used to be buddies with but is now hunting down, and it becomes a really lively, intriguing series. I especially love Waid likening Max's attempt to be a hero to a normal person kicking an addiction. Again, at first I thought it was corny because Max just seemed to be aping the surface details of heroism (not f***ing his underage sidekick/girlfriend anymore, not killing, etc.), but Waid slowly reveals the "twelve-step" mentality Max is taking to his heroism and it makes perfect sense.

All that said, I have two problems with the series so far: The art is just horribly, horribly bland. This is a complaint I could level at virtually any Boom comic. I assume Boom doesn't have the scratch to pay bigger names to do anything more than covers, even if Waid does probably have a considerable list of top-tier contacts within the industry, so I try to contain my disappointment in the art and enjoy the stories around it as much as possible. But seriously, the artists he's lining up for these books are just so very dull and tepid at times that it's hard not to fall asleep during what should be big, impressive action scenes. There's one particular splash page that can basically sum this whole point up: It's an image of Max and Jailbait walking away from a building as it explodes dramatically in the background. The splash page, as drawn by the interior artist, looks incredibly dull, Max looks really frumpy and awkward, the shadows are just light scribbles when they should be full-on silhouettes to contrast with the bright explosion in the background, and the whole thing just looks very amateurish. Now, the reason that particular page is so good for summing this up is that one of John Cassaday's covers for the series is essentially the same scene (only it's more of a generic explosion rather than a specific building blowing up). Cassaday's pops off the page and grabs you, telling you everything you need to know about the characters and this dynamic, violent world they live in. The interior artist's... does not. Let's just leave it at that.

The series does get a new artist in #5, but that just shifts the problems rather than curing them. The new artist, Horacio Domingues, is better at maintaining consistent figures than the previous artist, but his art is really cartoony and spare in a way that just makes it look flat rather than minimalistic. It actually reminds me of the animation style on Gargoyles, which, needless to say, really does not suit the series at all.

Second problem is Max's incredibly lame weakness. His power is that he gets super-strong, super-tough, and super-fast in direct proportion to how long he's been awake. So if he pulls an all-nighter, basically, he can probably go toe-to-toe with the Plutonian himself. Unfortunately, while he doesn't get tired, he still needs to sleep because he does get sleep deprived. Stay awake too long and his brain starts futzing out, to the point that after several days awake in #7, he could barely form coherent sentences. It's one of those classic, easily telegraphed weaknesses. From the moment they explained how his powers work, I was waiting for someone to prey on him in the early morning hours, just after he'd woken up. Sure enough, at the end of #7, a member of a gang Max has been targeting lately shows up right after he wakes up and shoots him in the chest. It's fine as plots go, I guess; Waid wants to lay Max low for some reason or other and giving him this weakness is one way to do it. But it's also incredibly cheesy. Weren't we over stupid weaknesses like this about 20 years ago?

Anyway, those two problems aside, I'm loving Incorruptible and Irredeemable and the world Waid is building between them. I'm looking forward to the first (inevitable) crossover.

 

[Alastor]

I've always been a fan of Waid, and you're review sealed it. I'm gonna pick these up next paycheck. I'm weary of the art, but I'm more of a story guy anyway.

 

[yenaled]

I adore Irredeemable but after #6 issues of Incorruptable I decided to drop it. Just wasn't really feeling it as much.

 

[StreetWarrior]

Small week.

Avengers #2 continued the "meh" of the first. As unpopular as this opinion is, again I feel the art hurt this issue almost as much as the writing. 2/5

Thunderbolts #145 was awesome for a second issue in a row. Between this, Secret Avengers, and Invincible Iron Man, the heroic age is starting off extremely strong. 5/5

 

[SpideyInATree]

Did I read it right when I skimmed the new issue of Amazing Spider-Man and saw Kraven kill Kaine?

I don't think that you read it right. I really think that was still Peter in the costume because if that was Kaine in the costume wouldn't Kraven have burst out of the grave monster-like much like what happened with Vladamir?

Because while Kaine is a clone of Peter he's a CLONE and he's a degenerating clone at that. So the blood would not be pure.

However, if there was a switch then I think when Peter fell into that grave Kaine busted out in a Spider-Man costume when Peter fell into the grave and when Spider-Man hit the Vladamir-monster.

Even still Spidey was busting out the witty banter. Kaine was never a witty banter type of guy and if he was acting then Kaine took acting lessons from Pacino and Deniro at the same time.

 

[Themanofbat]

I think he was talking about the back-up story (which took place some time in the past... before Kraven's Last Hunt... where a younger Kraven slashes a younger Kaine).

As far as the main story goes, it had to be Kaine in the Spidey suit... read the dialogue when he appears... especially to Madam Web...

And as far as the purity of Kaine's blood versus Peter Parker's... wellllllll.... there's a fine line...

 

[runawayboulder]

It may have been good enough....or the resurrected Kraven will be stuck like a zombie until they kill the true Spidey. It's interesting stuff right now. Grim Hunt is off to a killer start. It was well worth the wait!

 

[JewishHobbit]

Well I was talking about the second story, and I'm glad to hear it was a flashback, but if they did end up killing Kaine in the Spidey suit... well that just ticks me off. He was one of the best things to come out of the Clone Saga, and they just bring him back to kill him off a few arcs later? Add that to Mattie Franklin's death and Billy Conner's and this is just a joke.

 

[runawayboulder]

Well I was talking about the second story, and I'm glad to hear it was a flashback, but if they did end up killing Kaine in the Spidey suit... well that just ticks me off. He was one of the best things to come out of the Clone Saga, and they just bring him back to kill him off a few arcs later? Add that to Mattie Franklin's death and Billy Conner's and this is just a joke.

The hell with Mattie Franklin honestly. And Billy Conners was a waste too, the only other option would have been to turn him into a teenage version of the Lizard and they could have been a murderous father/son team.

 

[El Bastardo]

Picked up Incorruptible #1-7 and am enjoying it as much as Irredeemable. Never let it be said that Waid does not know how to use superhero tropes in new and interesting ways. I was initially skeptical of Incorruptible's premise; it seemed way too easy that this dude would see a good guy go bad and suddenly decide to do just the opposite and reform. But the way Waid fleshes it out makes it perfectly convincing. Max Damage is a compelling and complex lead character--far more than the Plutonian, in my opinion, but that may just be because I've seen the "evil Superman" model a lot already, whereas the "reformed villain" idea is much less specific. I mean, I was going to say "reformed (specific villain)" right there and I couldn't even come up with any major villains who match up quite right with Max. Throw in his very complicated relationship with Jailbait and the corrupt Lieutenant Armadale of Sky City's police department, along with the parade of villains he used to be buddies with but is now hunting down, and it becomes a really lively, intriguing series. I especially love Waid likening Max's attempt to be a hero to a normal person kicking an addiction. Again, at first I thought it was corny because Max just seemed to be aping the surface details of heroism (not f***ing his underage sidekick/girlfriend anymore, not killing, etc.), but Waid slowly reveals the "twelve-step" mentality Max is taking to his heroism and it makes perfect sense.

All that said, I have two problems with the series so far: The art is just horribly, horribly bland. This is a complaint I could level at virtually any Boom comic. I assume Boom doesn't have the scratch to pay bigger names to do anything more than covers, even if Waid does probably have a considerable list of top-tier contacts within the industry, so I try to contain my disappointment in the art and enjoy the stories around it as much as possible. But seriously, the artists he's lining up for these books are just so very dull and tepid at times that it's hard not to fall asleep during what should be big, impressive action scenes. There's one particular splash page that can basically sum this whole point up: It's an image of Max and Jailbait walking away from a building as it explodes dramatically in the background. The splash page, as drawn by the interior artist, looks incredibly dull, Max looks really frumpy and awkward, the shadows are just light scribbles when they should be full-on silhouettes to contrast with the bright explosion in the background, and the whole thing just looks very amateurish. Now, the reason that particular page is so good for summing this up is that one of John Cassaday's covers for the series is essentially the same scene (only it's more of a generic explosion rather than a specific building blowing up). Cassaday's pops off the page and grabs you, telling you everything you need to know about the characters and this dynamic, violent world they live in. The interior artist's... does not. Let's just leave it at that.

The series does get a new artist in #5, but that just shifts the problems rather than curing them. The new artist, Horacio Domingues, is better at maintaining consistent figures than the previous artist, but his art is really cartoony and spare in a way that just makes it look flat rather than minimalistic. It actually reminds me of the animation style on Gargoyles, which, needless to say, really does not suit the series at all.

Second problem is Max's incredibly lame weakness. His power is that he gets super-strong, super-tough, and super-fast in direct proportion to how long he's been awake. So if he pulls an all-nighter, basically, he can probably go toe-to-toe with the Plutonian himself. Unfortunately, while he doesn't get tired, he still needs to sleep because he does get sleep deprived. Stay awake too long and his brain starts futzing out, to the point that after several days awake in #7, he could barely form coherent sentences. It's one of those classic, easily telegraphed weaknesses. From the moment they explained how his powers work, I was waiting for someone to prey on him in the early morning hours, just after he'd woken up. Sure enough, at the end of #7, a member of a gang Max has been targeting lately shows up right after he wakes up and shoots him in the chest. It's fine as plots go, I guess; Waid wants to lay Max low for some reason or other and giving him this weakness is one way to do it. But it's also incredibly cheesy. Weren't we over stupid weaknesses like this about 20 years ago?

Anyway, those two problems aside, I'm loving Incorruptible and Irredeemable and the world Waid is building between them. I'm looking forward to the first (inevitable) crossover.

I adore Irredeemable but after #6 issues of Incorruptable I decided to drop it. Just wasn't really feeling it as much.

I've been thinking of these two posts, and thought I'd post now myself, as someone who's been reading both series since their first issues, and have continued to pick up both series.

Incorruptible is infinitely weaker than Irredeemable, but I'm not sure why. yenaled would seemingly agree with this statement, being that you've dropped Incorruptible. Corp, you enjoy it, but have your reservations about it nonetheless. I'm assuming you'd agree, too.

It's still well-written, of course - it's Mark-effing-Waid doing this, not Daniel Way or Judd Winick - but for me, it's a difference of reading it simply because it's good, and understanding that it's good (Moby Dick, let's say, because I hate that ****), instead of reading something that's good and particularly enjoyable (Huck Finn, let's use as a counterpoint). Or anything by Cormac McCarthy. Or Tolkien's fantasy (good, but dry and boring) against George R. R. Martin's fantasy or Joe Abercrombie's fantasy (good, incredible, and/or witty and hilarious).

I could make endless conjecture about Waid as a writer here - maybe he's just not as into Max Damage as he is into his orgasmic evil Superman ideal. I don't think that's the case, because I picture Waid as professional enough a writer to prevent that from happening. Boredom vs. gushing.

But, even though Irredeemable stutters here and there, it never took this long to really get anywhere. Meanwhile, Incorruptible still hasn't quite hit its stride by issue 7. It had a strong debut issue, soon fell off the track, and is more toppling over off said track than making it back on. It's like you said, Corp, it's showing Max's slow "rehab" process of reforming from villain from hero, and since that's become such a trope in superhero comics, I'm sure Waid's being deliberately slow about it. That doesn't make it particularly exciting, though, and little dramas with Jailbait don't up the ante enough. Hopefully the cliffhanger of #7 will provide the series with a finite destination and it'll go somewhere.

I haven't had any problems with the art, that said. I like the current artist (as of this issue and last issue, I think?) more than the launch artist, I think, but maybe I just don't remember the launch artist. Though the current artist is a little more cartoony, it fits fine the general atmosphere, and it's subtle. It's the story. The story needs to go somewhere.

 

[JewishHobbit]

The hell with Mattie Franklin honestly. And Billy Conners was a waste too, the only other option would have been to turn him into a teenage version of the Lizard and they could have been a murderous father/son team.

I would have liked to see him become effected mentally by what his father goes through and begin his own little 'quest', maybe find a way to become a hero to save other kids from what he's gone through... etc. He's at the age to where he could easily find a powersource. Join Avengers Academy or something. There's potential with any longterm young character who's gone through all he has... but now he's dead... so.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I've been thinking of these two posts, and thought I'd post now myself, as someone who's been reading both series since their first issues, and have continued to pick up both series.

Incorruptible is infinitely weaker than Irredeemable, but I'm not sure why. yenaled would seemingly agree with this statement, being that you've dropped Incorruptible. Corp, you enjoy it, but have your reservations about it nonetheless. I'm assuming you'd agree, too.

It's still well-written, of course - it's Mark-effing-Waid doing this, not Daniel Way or Judd Winick - but for me, it's a difference of reading it simply because it's good, and understanding that it's good (Moby Dick, let's say, because I hate that ****), instead of reading something that's good and particularly enjoyable (Huck Finn, let's use as a counterpoint). Or anything by Cormac McCarthy. Or Tolkien's fantasy (good, but dry and boring) against George R. R. Martin's fantasy or Joe Abercrombie's fantasy (good, incredible, and/or witty and hilarious).

I could make endless conjecture about Waid as a writer here - maybe he's just not as into Max Damage as he is into his orgasmic evil Superman ideal. I don't think that's the case, because I picture Waid as professional enough a writer to prevent that from happening. Boredom vs. gushing.

But, even though Irredeemable stutters here and there, it never took this long to really get anywhere. Meanwhile, Incorruptible still hasn't quite hit its stride by issue 7. It had a strong debut issue, soon fell off the track, and is more toppling over off said track than making it back on. It's like you said, Corp, it's showing Max's slow "rehab" process of reforming from villain from hero, and since that's become such a trope in superhero comics, I'm sure Waid's being deliberately slow about it. That doesn't make it particularly exciting, though, and little dramas with Jailbait don't up the ante enough. Hopefully the cliffhanger of #7 will provide the series with a finite destination and it'll go somewhere.

I haven't had any problems with the art, that said. I like the current artist (as of this issue and last issue, I think?) more than the launch artist, I think, but maybe I just don't remember the launch artist. Though the current artist is a little more cartoony, it fits fine the general atmosphere, and it's subtle. It's the story. The story needs to go somewhere.

Yeah, I think you've hit the nail on the head. Incorruptible definitely does not feel as significant or grand as Irredeemable. I could say it's a much more personal story--and I suppose to some extent it is since Max's reform is much more impactful to himself and those in his immediate vicinity, as opposed to Plutonian's downfall, which can't help impacting the whole world like a fist to the jaw--but I think that would just be charity. It really just hasn't pulled itself together the way Irredeemable did early on. Irredeemable's had a clear narrative thrust that it's followed faithfully and intelligently, whereas Incorruptible feels like it started on a so-so idea executed in a great way in its first arc, and then kind of didn't know where to go next.

The main problem seems obvious to me: The obvious escalation of Max Damage's story is to have him actually channel his reform toward taking down the Plutonian, but Max doesn't seem to have any interest in joining up with the few remaining heroes and Max himself (along with everyone else) is still f***ing terrified of the Plutonian. The Irredeemable annual said that Max would soon become a major player against the Plutonian, but we haven't really seen much of that in his own comic, where he's pissing about trying to get a handle on his awkward non-relationship with Jailbait and getting shot by small-time gang members and such. Basically, Irredeemable posed the question "what if the world's greatest hero became the world's greatest villain?" and followed through on it; Incorruptible posed the question "what if the world's greatest villain became the world's greatest hero," but so far Max hasn't really proven himself to be all that effective as either a hero or a villain. He's just a guy who's floundering about while fighting against his own nature right now.

 

[runawayboulder]

I also got Superman #700, the first DC book in forever (other than my monthly Hellblazer fix). I skipped over the first 2 stories because I'm not up on current events and I had read an article about JMS's plans for the book that peaked my interest.

"Grounded" has me highly interested in Superman for the first time in forever. I like the new take on Supes crossing America on foot. The motivation was somewhat weak, just because some lady was pissed her husband could have been saved by Superman...? Is he supposed to save one person out of the thousands that have cancer in the world. I could understand if Braniac or somebody killed him while Supes was off on New Krypton but it's a bit of a stretch. Or am I just so far out of touch with the character now?

Whatever....I'm on board for "Grounded".

 

[Tron Bonne]

I think just about anyway you look at the slap and such it's pretty heavy handed and almost silly.

But eh, I would worry about it much. It seems like this whole arc and idea is something for people who don't know much about Superman or haven't had much interest in him in the past anyway, so you should probably just go with it.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

"Grounded" sounds terrible to me. It could've been an interesting reintroduction between Superman and Earth after New Krypton, but I can already tell that 12 issues is way too long to drag such a thin premise out. Plus, if the way it was introduced is any indication of the "issues" Superman will be finding along his trip through the US, it's going to be insanely, insanely ******ed. I mean, really, that lady slapping Superman because Superman wasn't around to cure cancer is just idiotic no matter how you look at it. That's Sally Floyd-level stupid. Manic posted an actual health professional's reaction to it in the Superman thread that really puts into perspective the sheer, astonishing stupidity of that scene. That's the kind of stupid it usually takes JMS a couple years on a title to ease into, so the fact that he's starting his Superman run with it makes me pretty nervous.

 

[runawayboulder]

The loogie Tony Stark got at the beginning of Civil War was more of an intense scene than the "slap heard round the world".

I'm sure longtime Supes fans are gonna hate the fact that he's gonna walk the earth like Caine in Kung-Fu (or Jules in Pulp Fiction), other than fight Lex Luthor for the billionth time.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

More like longtime Supes fans are currently hating the fact that he's gonna walk the earth like Caine in Kung-Fu because it's totally not necessary, since being connected to and in touch with humanity is like 90% of what makes Superman Superman in the first place.

 

[Tron Bonne]

I'm sure longtime Supes fans are gonna hate the fact that he's gonna walk the earth like Caine in Kung-Fu (or Jules in Pulp Fiction), other than fight Lex Luthor for the billionth time.

I don't really want to get into this, because I have in the Superman thread pretty extensively and have said all I think needs to be said about, but most of us who are longtime Superman fans know that all Superman needs to do to reconnect to anyone is be Superman, not some heavy-handed self-quest.

"Grounded" sounds terrible to me. It could've been an interesting reintroduction between Superman and Earth after New Krypton, but I can already tell that 12 issues is way too long to drag such a thin premise out. Plus, if the way it was introduced is any indication of the "issues" Superman will be finding along his trip through the US, it's going to be insanely, insanely ******ed. I mean, really, that lady slapping Superman because Superman wasn't around to cure cancer is just idiotic no matter how you look at it. That's Sally Floyd-level stupid. Manic posted an actual health professional's reaction to it in the Superman thread that really puts into perspective the sheer, astonishing stupidity of that scene. That's the kind of stupid it usually takes JMS a couple years on a title to ease into, so the fact that he's starting his Superman run with it makes me pretty nervous.

Yeah, roughly my feelings as you know. But, like I said, I'm pretty convinced this is just JMS 'pulling a Morrison' so to speak. Doing something 'different' that alienates older fans and readers who read the title regardless, but attracts new ones all the same.

Of course, in this case it's only different on the surface. It's just a much more heavy-handed and dark age pessimism laced idea of what Superman already does just by being him. I just hope this kind of thing won't be echoed throughout the rest of his run. I think the last thing we need is for Superman the character to be injected with that kind of stuff

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, I didn't mean to go off on such a rant because I've already posted all of this in that Superman thread as well. If Thor is any indication, though, JMS certainly knows how to draw big audiences into formerly underappreciated characters. So, hey, if "Grounded" broadens Superman's appeal, more power to it. I doubt I'll ever actually read it myself, but Superman can use all the help he can get to reclaim his throne as the top DC superhero. That title's shifted to Batman, who has a much more obvious, widespread appeal, for a long time now.

 

[WOLVERINE25TH]

I dunno how JMS brought in any readers on Thor, considering all the massive delays and the supreme boringness of his story.

 

[runawayboulder]

Yeah, roughly my feelings as you know. But, like I said, I'm pretty convinced this is just JMS 'pulling a Morrison' so to speak. Doing something 'different' that alienates older fans and readers who read the title regardless, but attracts new ones all the same.

That's pretty much what's happening to me. Sorry to you longtime fans.

 

[El Bastardo]

Yeah, I think you've hit the nail on the head. Incorruptible definitely does not feel as significant or grand as Irredeemable. I could say it's a much more personal story--and I suppose to some extent it is since Max's reform is much more impactful to himself and those in his immediate vicinity, as opposed to Plutonian's downfall, which can't help impacting the whole world like a fist to the jaw--but I think that would just be charity. It really just hasn't pulled itself together the way Irredeemable did early on. Irredeemable's had a clear narrative thrust that it's followed faithfully and intelligently, whereas Incorruptible feels like it started on a so-so idea executed in a great way in its first arc, and then kind of didn't know where to go next.

The main problem seems obvious to me: The obvious escalation of Max Damage's story is to have him actually channel his reform toward taking down the Plutonian, but Max doesn't seem to have any interest in joining up with the few remaining heroes and Max himself (along with everyone else) is still f***ing terrified of the Plutonian. The Irredeemable annual said that Max would soon become a major player against the Plutonian, but we haven't really seen much of that in his own comic, where he's pissing about trying to get a handle on his awkward non-relationship with Jailbait and getting shot by small-time gang members and such. Basically, Irredeemable posed the question "what if the world's greatest hero became the world's greatest villain?" and followed through on it; Incorruptible posed the question "what if the world's greatest villain became the world's greatest hero," but so far Max hasn't really proven himself to be all that effective as either a hero or a villain. He's just a guy who's floundering about while fighting against his own nature right now.

Agreed.

I hate taking anything away from Waid, but really, he could have just gone with the monomythic Campbellian hero ideal out the gate and wound up with a better-moving story than what we've been getting.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I dunno how JMS brought in any readers on Thor, considering all the massive delays and the supreme boringness of his story.

The delays were certainly annoying, but I liked his story a lot. Granted, I was already into Thor. I think scope is the name of the game for JMS' run. He really gave Thor a sense of weight and gravitas that told readers he's more than "just" a superhero. I don't think he quite followed through on the promises he seemed to be making early on--investigating the relationship between god and man, especially--but what he did do was good. Those first twelve issues leading up to the fight with Bor were pretty awesome to me. But to each his own.

 

[JewishHobbit]

I read the first ten or so issues and it was really good. I just didn't have the cash to continue on with it.