Just Read "The Killing Joke" For the First Time

[DACMAN]

I'll get to the point. I thought it sucked. I've read my fare share of Batman stories. I loved Year One, Hush, and The Long Halloween. I liked The Dark Knight Returns and a few others. There have been stories I've thought were ok, and others I kind of hated. But going into a "TKJ" I had pretty big expectations as I've been told it was one of the best Batman stories ever.

The only thing about it I loved was the art. It was slow, boring, and weird.

Spoiler

Batman catches up to the guy that shot a woman through the spine and then takes pictures of her naked. Upon beating him up, they than stand in the rain together and laugh at an old joke.

It was weird. The Joker just did a terrible, evil thing and they just

Spoiler

stand around laughing at a joke. There's even a part when Batman leans over and puts his hands on the Joker from laughing so hard.

To me it come off just really freaken weird. Did they do that because we're suppose to get from that, that the Batman is just as crazy as the Joker? Because if that's what Alan Moore was going for than I might be able to understand that. Plus what the heck was with those

Spoiler

bald little people beating up on Gordan? Like a seasoned cop couldn't beat up three tiny little chicks...

So help me out. I really wanted to like this comic. I really ended up hating it.

 

[DACMAN]

I feel like I should add that I liked the whole "life is meaningless" thing. That there is comfort in madness. That was well done.

 

[Motown Marvel]

while i will let someone else who isnt half asleep take up the debate with you on that one scene....was that the only reason why you didnt like the book?

 

[Jolly Rolly]

To each his/her own I guess, for me having read it the first time in 1993 way before TLH, DV and HUSH I found the story rather interesting but others hated it criticizing Moore's writing as pure lazy shock value such as Barbara Gordon getting paralyzed.

But for me it's Brain Bolland's beautiful art that overpowers the story more.

 

[Drz]

Alan Moore questioned Batman's own sanity pretty much, but hey atleast Batman didn't end up beating the snot out of Joker even after all he did. He still was willing to help Joker and even laughed at him at the joke, why? It reflected both of them.

 

[The Joker]

The only thing about it I loved was the art. It was slow, boring, and weird.

Spoiler

Batman catches up to the guy that shot a woman through the spine and then takes pictures of her naked. Upon beating him up, they than stand in the rain together and laugh at an old joke.

Did you miss the scenes in Arkham where Batman wanted to reason with the Joker in order to avoid the bloody outcome of them one day ending up killing eachother? Or the scene outside the funhouse when Batman rescues Gordon, and Gordon tells him to bring Joker in by the book because they have to show him their way works.

It was weird. The Joker just did a terrible, evil thing and they just

Spoiler

stand around laughing at a joke. There's even a part when Batman leans over and puts his hands on the Joker from laughing so hard.

Because the joke about the two guys in the lunatic asylum reflected Batman and Joker's situation. Batman is offering Joker a helping hand, and Joker is just too crazy and too far gone to accept it.

Even Batman appreciated the irony of it.

Plus what the heck was with those

Spoiler

bald little people beating up on Gordan? Like a seasoned cop couldn't beat up three tiny little chicks...

They were circus freaks of course. Did you not see a whole plethora of them right there in the amusement park with Joker, laughing and taunting Gordon with him?

And Gordon couldn't fight back because they kept tasering him every time he tried. Not to mention he was traumatized and disoriented.

So help me out. I really wanted to like this comic. I really ended up hating it.

Different strokes for different folks.

 

[Mandalore464]

When I first read it maybe five years ago I thought it was pretty cool. I read it again a few months ago and I'd definitely say it's one of my least favourite Batman GNs now.

The themes are not what's wrong with it, I think they're great, the parallels between the Joker and Batman (although that's nothing new, and maybe wasn't even new at the time it was first released), and the fact that Batman never crosses the line, no matter what terrible things the villains do is I think the very definition of the Batman character itself.

But I find the art pretty average and the story weak. Eventually, the only thing of importance is that Barbaga gets paralyzed. Other than that it just feels like another shot at "Joker got out, did stuff, and Batman took him in while resisting the urge to kill the sob".

I also consider it a Joker story more than a Batman one.

So yeah, to me, the themes it deals with are what makes it great, but storywise and artwise, definitely not my cup of tea. Kind of boring as you said.

 

[Naked Shia]

TKJ is not only about the story or the art. The way the scenes are cut is wonderful. On one page you have barbara and jim, smiling together, then you turn the page and tadam, the joker is there. And he's not there to play jokes. He's scary, he's evil, he wants to make a point : he's crazy, but everybody he's like him. You just have to put the button.
You have joker talking to the circus man, and a few frames later, you see this man is already dead...

There are a lot of ideas in every single frame. It's short, but it manages to tell a lot. It's not only about the meaning or the shock value, it's about emotions. Batman and joker's duality is visceral, and so is this story. It's what makes it great.

The art ages very well, and Gordon is showed as a true hero in this one. Even with all evil Joker does to him, he stays a straight guy.

TKJ works on several levels, it's not a straight forward story, it has a lot more to appreciate.

 

[Two-Face=Badass]

I'll give you this; Killing Joke is a little overrated.

Apart from that however, I think you failed to catch the many metaphors, contrasts and spanning theme of the story. Probably why you loved Hush. which is an awful story by an awful writer.

Seriously, I cannot emphasise enough how poor Hush is, there are plotholes you could drive the Batmobile through.

 

[DACMAN]

Did you miss the scenes in Arkham where Batman wanted to reason with the Joker in order to avoid the bloody outcome of them one day ending up killing eachother? Or the scene outside the funhouse when Batman rescues Gordon, and Gordon tells him to bring Joker in by the book because they have to show him their way works.

Yes. I caught that. But bringing him in "by the book" doesn't mean hanging out with him in the rain laughing at a joke. It means stopping him, reading him his rights, and bringing him in.

Because the joke about the two guys in the lunatic asylum reflected Batman and Joker's situation. Batman is offering Joker a helping hand, and Joker is just too crazy and too far gone to accept it.
Even Batman appreciated the irony of it.

That I got. But the fact he was just standing around listening to it was weird. Have you ever seen "The Last House on the Left"? While not a great movie, it at least helps me prove my point. Imagine the father just standing there with the main villain listening to a joke and then laughing at it. The only thing I can come up with that justifies it is that Moore wants us to leave the book saying to ourselves "yup, Batman is crazy." Doing things "by the book" doesn't include hanging out together listening to jokes. The way he reacted in HUSH was much more realistic. He saw what was done to an old friend and flipped out. He wanted to stop him from hurting anyone else ever. He didn't stand around listening to the Joker get to a punch line.

They were circus freaks of course. Did you not see a whole plethora of them right there in the amusement park with Joker, laughing and taunting Gordon with him?

And Gordon couldn't fight back because they kept tasering him every time he tried. Not to mention he was traumatized and disoriented.

Fair enough.

 

[ronny]

The only thing I don't like is using the Red Hood persona, it's so terrible. It should be retconned out of the comics at any opportunity. The Joker originally being the Red Hood absolutely sucks as an origin.

 

[Drz]

The only thing I don't like is using the Red Hood persona, it's so terrible. It should be retconned out of the comics at any opportunity. The Joker originally being the Red Hood absolutely sucks as an origin.

Thats why its only IMPLIED that he was the Red Hood nowdays, but noone knows his true past. Silver Age Joker was 100% Red Hood once but the modern one just might have.

 

[The Joker]

Yes. I caught that. But bringing him in "by the book" doesn't mean hanging out with him in the rain laughing at a joke. It means stopping him, reading him his rights, and bringing him in.

What are you talking about? Batman did stop him. Joker was disarmed and powerless. Batman then offered him a chance to end their bloody feud. As for reading him his rights, when the heck has Batman ever done that with any criminal? He's not a Cop.

When Gordon said bring him in by the book, he meant not beating the living s*** out of Joker.

That I got. But the fact he was just standing around listening to it was weird. Have you ever seen "The Last House on the Left"? While not a great movie, it at least helps me prove my point. Imagine the father just standing there with the main villain listening to a joke and then laughing at it.

That's a bad analogy. Batman was not Barbara's father. And second, the father in Last house on the left had his daughter raped and murdered. Third, he was thirsting for revenge on the killers who had turned up in his own house. And of course he had no experience in dealing with these types of people. Batman knows Joker all too well.

Different circumstances, different people.

The only thing I can come up with that justifies it is that Moore wants us to leave the book saying to ourselves "yup, Batman is crazy." Doing things "by the book" doesn't include hanging out together listening to jokes. The way he reacted in HUSH was much more realistic.

By the time Hush rolled around, Joker had racked up the following crimes:

- Crippling Barbara
- Murdering Jason Todd
- Murdering Jim Gordon's wife

In the Killing Joke, this was the first crime Joker commited that hit home personally for Batman. So his reaction to seeing Joker standing over Tommy Elliott's dead body was more plausible in that scenario.

 

[DACMAN]

What are you talking about? Batman did stop him. Joker was disarmed and powerless. Batman then offered him a chance to end their bloody feud. As for reading him his rights, when the heck has Batman ever done that with any criminal? He's not a Cop.

When Gordon said bring him in by the book, he meant not beating the living s*** out of Joker.

I was telling you what "by the book" really means. You didn't address the fact Batman was just hanging out with Joker in the rain listeneing to a joke and laughing at it. Ok, he stopped to talk to him about ending all this. But then Batman just listens when this guy wants to tell a joke, and then laugh at it! Seriously!? He almost killed a woman very close to him and took pictures of her naked. What the heck?

That's a bad analogy. Batman was not Barbara's father. And second, the father in Last house on the left had his daughter raped and murdered. Third, he was thirsting for revenge on the killers who had turned up in his own house. And of course he had no experience in dealing with these types of people. Batman knows Joker all too well.

Daughter wasn't killed. At least not in the new version. She was shot and rapped. It was very similar. I'm not saying Batman should have tried to kill the Joker, I'm simply saying it's unbelievable that he would want to listen to a joke from the guy and then laugh hysterically at it. To the point that he actually puts his hands on the Joker to keep himself upright.

By the time Hush rolled around, Joker had racked up the following crimes:
- Crippling Barbara
- Murdering Jason Todd
- Murdering Jim Gordon's wife

In the Killing Joke, this was the first crime Joker commited that hit home personally for Batman. So his reaction to seeing Joker standing over Tommy Elliott's dead body was more plausible in that scenario.

Hit home personally for Batman? That was my point with the analogy. And you kind of just made my point. Batman hadn't seen the Joker commit that heinous of a crime before? Wouldn't that make him fly off the handle even more? Like you said, he knows him very well. Shouldn't he expect that kind of thing from him by now?

It would have been just as bad if the Joker, while standing over Tommy's body was like "let me tell you a joke." Batman then lets him tell the joke and then laughs at it. It's like "THIS GUY JUST DID SOMETHING TERRIBLE! DON'T STAND AROUND LISTENING TO HIS JOKES AND THEN LAUGH AT THEM!"

It came off as really contrived.

 

[The Joker]

I was telling you what "by the book" really means. You didn't address the fact Batman was just hanging out with Joker in the rain listeneing to a joke and laughing at it. Ok, he stopped to talk to him about ending all this. But then Batman just listens when this guy wants to tell a joke, and then laugh at it! Seriously!? He almost killed a woman very close to him and took pictures of her naked. What the heck?

Oh my god, man, you are making a mountain out of a mole hill here.

Batman told Gordon that the Police were on their way, which we saw at the very end. He wasn't "hanging out with him in the rain" with Joker. The Cops were on their way.

After Joker rebuffed his offer of help, Joker told him a joke that reminded him of their situation. Maybe Batman thought it would offer some insight into understanding Joker more.

It was no big deal. Joker was neutralized as a threat. Batman standing there, waiting for the Cops to arrive, letting Joker tell a joke that reminded him of their situation. And Batman found the humour in the analogy.

I fail to understand your problem with it.

Daughter wasn't killed. At least not in the new version. She was shot and rapped. It was very similar.

Again, Batman is not Barbara's father. Batman has years of self discipline training, too. It takes alot to make him fly off the handle. Usually when someone messes with his mind like in Hush or Knightfall.

Hit home personally for Batman? That was my point with the analogy. And you kind of just made my point. Batman hadn't seen the Joker commit that heinous of a crime before? Wouldn't that make him fly off the handle even more? Like you said, he knows him very well. Shouldn't he expect that kind of thing from him by now?

I don't mean to be rude, but I feel like I keep having to point out the obvious here to you. You brought up Hush, so I'm assuming you read the whole story, and not just that one issue, right?

Then you know that Batman had a microchip in his brain that Tommy Elliott put there during brain surgery, that was allowing him to manipulate Batman. It's why Scarecrow's fear gas had no effect on him later on in that arc. Batman's mind was already under another influence. There was subliminals in the Bat Computer, too.

Did you ever read Knightfall? Same situation. Scarecrow sprayed Batman with fear gas, screwing with his mind, and it made him beat the living hell out of Joker:

I think you get my point.

 

[david icke]

After Joker rebuffed his offer of help, Joker told him a joke that reminded him of their situation. Maybe Batman thought it would offer some insight into understanding Joker more.

It was no big deal. Joker was neutralized as a threat. Batman standing there, waiting for the Cops to arrive, letting Joker tell a joke that reminded him of their situation. And Batman found the humour in the analogy.

This is exactly it. And I would have to say Batman is caught off guard by the deeper meaning to the joke. He's also not the type of guy who laughs at anything, if anything I'd say it takes a something of a rare circumstance to get Batman laughing, so when it happens he really lets go. Laughter is not something you can control in those moments, many people in real life have found themselves laughing uncontrollably in a time and place where it's really not acceptable.
I think it's a fantastice moment for that reason, it sums up their situation, and as it takes the form of a joke, you have that little moment of the punchline 'clicking'. Also, perhaps the fact that it is summing up a long term situation and problem that could not be more serious contributes to this uncontrollable laughter.
I think it's this conversation that made the story special for me. I grew up reading Batman comics all my life and when this story came out it seemed like it was the Batman and Joker conversation we'd all been waiting on.
A no bs, man to man conversation on their situation and relationship and one that carried the requisite dramatic gravity.
But of course amongst that we can't forget that it's Batman and the Joker we are dealing with here. So we have Batman's character portrayed correctly, the guy who never gives up, even on a character like the Joker, even after this particular crime, the most disturbing one seen yet in print. He still tries to save him.
And we have the Joker, so of course, he would not be the Joker if he just responded with an honest, but dry, 'no...it's too late for me..', he had to respond in the form of a Joke, that's him, that's how he gets through life. And, he would not be the Joker, would not live up to his title, if Batman had not laughed.

It was the Batman/Joker convo that had to happen someday, and it was handled by a master, imo perfectly. And of course, is so powerful, whether you like it or not, that it stays with the reader and you have folk discussing and debating it decades later.

Great book, but not a graphic novel, a short story, and a very special one.
And whoever above said Brian Bolland's art was average or whatever, I'd really like to know what kind of art you considered exceptional.

 

[TruerToTheCore]

Alan Moore doesn't like "THe Killing Joke" either

AM: I think so. This has nothing to do with Brian Bolland’s artwork, which was of course exquisite. I’ve never really liked my story in The Killing Joke. I think it put far too much melodramatic weight upon a character that was never designed to carry it. It was too nasty, it was too physically violent. There were some good things about it, but in terms of my writing, it’s not one of me favorite pieces. If, as I said, god forbid, I was ever writing a character like Batman again, I’d probably be setting it squarely in the kind of “smiley uncle” period where Dick Sprang was drawing it, and where you had Ace the Bat-Hound and Bat-Mite, and the zebra Batman—when it was sillier. Because then, it was brimming with imagination and playful ideas. I don’t think that the world needs that many brooding psychopathic avengers. I don’t know that we need any. It was a disappointment to me, how Watchmen was absorbed into the mainstream. It had originally been meant as an indication of what people could do that was new. I’d originally thought that with works like Watchmen and Marvelman, I’d be able to say, “Look, this is what you can do with these stale old concepts. You can turn them on their heads. You can really wake them up. Don’t be so limited in your thinking. Use your imagination.” And, I was naively hoping that there’d be a rush of fresh and original work by people coming up with their own. But, as I said, it was meant to be something that would liberate comics. Instead, it became this massive stumbling block that comics can’t even really seem to get around to this day. They’ve lost a lot of their original innocence, and they can’t get that back. And, they’re stuck, it seems, in this kind of depressive ghetto of grimness and psychosis. I’m not too proud of being the author of that regrettable trend.

http://www.mania.com/alan-moore-reflects-marvelman-part-2_article_117529.html

 

[batpawn]

Alan Moore doesn't like "THe Killing Joke" either

mostly because he doesn't like superheroes in general and brian bolland "begged" him to write a joker story. it's funny, how I agree AND don't agree with him at the same time.

while I agree that there are far too many "psychotic" vigilantes out there and that the creativity of many writers out there suffered because of his work, I still think that Killing Joke is a superbe story. not his best, true, but a fantastic psychological drive, and the joker carried this "melancholic weight" much easier than he ever was supposed to. and, hey, if there is one single comicbook character who deserves to be a psychotic avanger, it surely is batman.

 

[Infinity9999x]

I agree with both Joker and David, they've said basically what I was going to say.

Also DAC, you're missing one aspect of the book that made me love it so much, the line

If I'm going to have a past, it might as well be multiple choice!

The idea that the Joker himself doens't even know for sure what his past is, that his mind is so fractured that he actually imagines different pasts each time he thinks back. Something TDK took heavy influence from as well.

 

[batpawn]

The idea that the Joker himself doens't even know for sure what his past is, that his mind is so fractured that he actually imagines different pasts each time he thinks back. Something TDK took heavy influence from as well.

and morrison perfected this though process by letting the joker "create himself new everyday". and since morrison's take on the joker is my personal favorite, I really have to give much credit to alan moore. you can't deny that the "multiple choice" concept was a big inspiration for morrison.

that being said, I'm actually one of the few people out there, who think that the origin in "the killing joke" is joker's true origin story. with some changes here and there, of course, but overall, that's pretty much what I think really happened to him.

 

[CConn]

I agree with the dudes who stated that the book has a great concept, but in execution is an ultimately weak outing. By the end of it, I'll always remember thinking "...that was it?" Moore needed to take his concepts on duality and insanity and integrate them into a more compelling and complex story.

 

[Infinity9999x]

I agree with the dudes who stated that the book has a great concept, but in execution is an ultimately weak outing. By the end of it, I'll always remember thinking "...that was it?" Moore needed to take his concepts on duality and insanity and integrate them into a more compelling and complex story.

I always viewed it as more or less a short story (because it is really.)

And, like most short stories, it took an a few interesting ideas, presented them, and that was it more or less. You don't get a whole lot of character development, or that complicated of a plot, it was more about presenting the idea than anything.

Which is more or less how most fiction short stories function. I wouldn't have minded if Moore had decided to do a more indepth story either though.

And in response Batpawn,

I liked the idea of the memory being the "true" past for Mr. J as well for a long while, but now I just love the mystery of it all. I don't think I'd ever want his actual past to be revealed. The guessing game is always more fun.

 

[TruerToTheCore]

mostly because he doesn't like superheroes in general and brian bolland "begged" him to write a joker story. it's funny, how I agree AND don't agree with him at the same time.

He doesn't like modern superheroes. He loves the Silver Age Superman, for example.

while I agree that there are far too many "psychotic" vigilantes out there and that the creativity of many writers out there suffered because of his work, I still think that Killing Joke is a superbe story. not his best, true, but a fantastic psychological drive, and the joker carried this "melancholic weight" much easier than he ever was supposed to. and, hey, if there is one single comicbook character who deserves to be a psychotic avanger, it surely is batman.

Batman is a psychotic avenger?
Sorry, I prefer him to be a pure hero.

 

[CConn]

I always viewed it as more or less a short story (because it is really.)

And, like most short stories, it took an a few interesting ideas, presented them, and that was it more or less. You don't get a whole lot of character development, or that complicated of a plot, it was more about presenting the idea than anything.

Which is more or less how most fiction short stories function. I wouldn't have minded if Moore had decided to do a more indepth story either though.

And in response Batpawn,

I liked the idea of the memory being the "true" past for Mr. J as well for a long while, but now I just love the mystery of it all. I don't think I'd ever want his actual past to be revealed. The guessing game is always more fun.

That makes sense.

But there's comics with just as few pages as TKJ that actually has some plot and character development in it.

It just seemed like Moore was being lazy with it.

 

[CConn]

He doesn't like modern superheroes. He loves the Silver Age Superman, for example.


Batman is a psychotic avenger?
Sorry, I prefer him to be a pure hero.

Then you must have pissed the past 25 years of Batman comics.

Batman hasn't been a "pure" hero since about 1984.