WHY IS the killing joke regarded as origin story?

[Darknightnomis]

The Killing Joke is a more complete addendum to the "raed Hood" origin of the Joker from waay back.

IF YOU READ THE BOOK you will see how they tie in togther and at the same time explain the relationship of the Batman with the Joker!

 

[Anita18]

TKJ is one of the most popular stories for the Joker's orgin. But I, personally, hate that the Joker was a sympathetic character before his accident. Sure, in the context of storytelling, it made perfect sense (Since the story is a Batman and Joker relationship story that centered around Joker's retelling of his orgin). But, to me, the Joker can't be a character the audience is suposted to feel any remorse, sorrow, or pity for.

Sorry for digging up an old thread, but this is the most recent TKJ thread and I just reread it so...

I concur with the above post. I'm totally fine with the idea of an origin and I'm okay with the audience sympathizing with him a little, but I think it was disingenuous of Moore to even suggest that Joker was such a nice guy before he turns. Batman I can believe being irrevocably changed from his one bad day, since he was 8 and we don't know what kind of kid he was at 8 anyway. If he'd been a spoiled rotten brat at 8, I don't think he would have become Batman.

For the failed adult comedian...I dunno. I think that when you're an adult, the person you become in the future starts from the person you already are. The comedian didn't want anything bad to happen to anyone at all - he was the classic "nice guy." I didn't buy that all those tragic things happening to him would suddenly change him into being a mass-murdering psychopath. It could certainly render him insane, but I picture it more as a self-harming kind of insane, not the kind of sociopath that Joker is. IMO he's got to have that kind of viewpoint toward people originally, and then something just tips him over the edge toward total anarchy.

I believe Moore's point was for us to feel that anyone could be the Joker, but I think the character's leap was a bit too far. Nice guys (especially adults) don't just snap and become serial killers - they always develop into it some way or another, even if it's just internal.

I did like the relationship between the mentality of Bats and Joker though, as well as the repeated images to show that their relationship is pretty much a broken record. And I LOVE Brian Bolland's facial expressions for Joker.

 

[Volvic]

Yeah, I like Killing Joke, but I've never considered it as an origin story. I've always prefered the idea of Joker being a gangster who became something worse. The 'one bad day' thing never sat very well with me. I don't mind the semi sympathic origins for Ivy, Harvey, or even Freeze - but not Joker.

Joker is pure chaos and evil, all wrapped in a twisted little package. I don't want to feel even the slightest bit sorry for him.

At the moment my fav origin is still the Dini/Ross Black and White one. Mainly because it opens up a lot of room for speculation.

 

[TheBatman072]

Yes, but The Killing Joke is what was given to Heath Ledger in preperation for the role, so he will be playing the Joker with that origin in mind

Umm, no. Not at all.


He was given it to read becuase that's a certain way they want the character portrayed, as far as Joker goes, but Nolan himself has said that there will be no origin for the Joker. He is an absolute and that's where it ends. The Joker just IS.

 

[Revovler]

I don't think the one bad day works, even in the stories sense. The Joker at that time wanted to possibly see for himself if he went insane after that day. Yet when he tried to make Gordon go insane it didn't work, showing his belief had a flaw. This is what makes Moore's TKJ so great because it opens up the possibilities to so much and shows his origin as an unknown.

 

[RobC]

Meh, it's not regarded as *the* original story, but it is one of many, and it's become so popular for many reasons. First, it changed Gotham forever with the crippling of Barbara, a real shocker at the time. It showed Batman to have sympathy towards Joker. It's an extremely important piece of popular culture when taken in context, it's over 20 years old but still debated en masse amongst fan-boys...

 

[escobar2248]

TKJ is one of the most popular stories for the Joker's orgin. But I, personally, hate that the Joker was a sympathetic character before his accident.

See, I feel the opposite way. It really made his transformation much more tragic, traumatic and we got to see how truly insane he became.

I just remember the color and artwork being so vibrant and intense when I first read it. When it first came out, it was very cutting edge at the time.

 

[Super_Ludacris]

Cause Its Canon

 

[Mladen]

See, I feel the opposite way. It really made his transformation much more tragic, traumatic and we got to see how truly insane he became.

I just remember the color and artwork being so vibrant and intense when I first read it. When it first came out, it was very cutting edge at the time.

yeah, but there are plenty of traumatic tragic characters in Batman. Many others who do it more convincingly than the joker.

Brian Bolland had been around for a while before TKJ hadnt he? At least in 2000 AD working on Judge Dredd etc?

 

[chamber-music]

TKJ is one of the most popular stories for the Joker's orgin. But I, personally, hate that the Joker was a sympathetic character before his accident. Sure, in the context of storytelling, it made perfect sense (Since the story is a Batman and Joker relationship story that centered around Joker's retelling of his orgin). But, to me, the Joker can't be a character the audience is suposted to feel any remorse, sorrow, or pity for.

Simply put, the more we know about the Joker, the less interesting of a character he becomes. At least in my opinion.

I agree.

See, I feel the opposite way. It really made his transformation much more tragic, traumatic and we got to see how truly insane he became.

I think we get a better sympathetic villian in Two Face though. I prefer other writers and Nolans movie vision of Joker as a force of chaos and anarchy.

 

[escobar2248]

I prefer other writers and Nolans movie vision of Joker as a force of chaos and anarchy.

I really like Nolan's and Bermejo's recent version, ALOT. The whole homicidal hobo/insane clown look really appeals to me for some odd reason.

 

[chamber-music]

 

[RobC]

That's an AMAZING picture right there. Never really cared for Bermejo stuff before, but that's awsome.

 

[MALFUNCTION]

I think the biggest contibution that TKJ gave to the Joker is the idea that he doesn't have a firm grip on who he was before Joker.
It let's everyone take a stab at an origin because you can always go back and say, "we'll, that's how Joker remembers it today anyway, hahahaha!"
That's the part that really changed everyones understanding of Jokers state of mind.
Everyone knows he's ciminally insane. But so are almost all of Batmans enemies. Joker is not his origin like most characters. You can't predict him that way, which is what makes him terrifying. He might tell you a bad joke and then push you out of a moving car or he might just stab you in the eye 23 times or he might loan you a buck and wish you good day.
His flash backs in TKJ are a justification for his premise that anyone can lose it after just one bad day. He is imagining himself as this helpless pleeb nobody nice guy that is forced to become a monster. He doesn't actually believe he was that person. It's a construct in his twisted mind to help him make the point he is currently obsessing on.

 

[RobC]

That him and Batman are one and the same, but after a bad day Batman turned to good (altruistically anyway) and he turned evil and went insane. He is doing this to proove that he isn't the only one, that he *didn't* have a choice. Batman however, disagrees.

 

[ponsrascri]

Yes. I think that you should stop smoking crack.
You can try. THanks.


____________________________
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[Rambo, John J]

Overall I think Killing Joke is a great story. While Barbara's eventual transformation into Oracle was great, at first in this story doing that to Batgirl seemed a bit much. I for one wasn't a big fan of that 80's-90's backlash on superhero sidekicks, plus it's yet another Women in Refrigerators moment. But other than that, it was a good story and is praised so highly because it's the best possible Joker origin we have. While it may or may not be definitive, it's the best we got.

Heh, love Tvtropes!