Ken Ham vs Bill Nye (Is creation a viable model of origins?)

[random_havoc]

*Freshman, "Master."

You know what's always the sign of genius? Catching internet spelling mistakes. Get back to me when you have a clue what you're talking about.

 

[Hal_Jordan]

You must be thinking of someone else or just like to argue. I didn't tell anyone anything. I just stated how I would view the world if I lost my faith. If you took it any other way then that's on you. Now stop replying. I have to get to bed

My point was that the world will continue functioning just find if you and everyone else loses their faith.

It would actually most likely function better if people stopped trying to force their non provable beliefs on others.

 

[JewishHobbit]

You know what's always the sign of genius? Catching internet spelling mistakes. Get back to me when you have a clue what you're talking about.

His reply wasn't grammatically correct either

 

[random_havoc]

My point was that the world will continue functioning just find if you and everyone else loses their faith.

It would actually most likely function better if people stopped trying to force their non provable beliefs on others.

Oh, but since catching meaningless errors is apparently how this is won

 

[Hal_Jordan]

You know what's always the sign of genius? Catching internet spelling mistakes. Get back to me when you have a clue what you're talking about.

When someone touts their academic accomplishments, it's absolutely appropriate. That, and your other arguments hold no water.

 

[JewishHobbit]

My point was that the world will continue functioning just find if you and everyone else loses their faith.

It would actually most likely function better if people stopped trying to force their non provable beliefs on others.

Hah, keep fishing. It's actually getting amusing to watch now. You're making me enjoy this thread

 

[Hal_Jordan]

Hah, keep fishing. It's actually getting amusing to watch now. You're making me enjoy this thread

I thought you had somewhere to be. More things you believe that didn't really happen?

 

[The End]

There isn't any fact,unless you have Doc Brown's Time machine and can give us a first hand account.Otherwise it's all theory,conjecture & speculation.And if that's the case,both sides should be taught equally.

I frankly don't get it.Why so afraid to have Creationism have it's day?If it's so unfathomably illogical as you would have us believe,it'll be rejected.No big deal.

It is rejected; there is no scientific peer review journal that takes creationism seriously.

You want science classes... take something seriously, that is not science. That is not a tenable position.

You also don't know what the word theory means. Creationism does not reach the level of theory in science.

 

[random_havoc]

My point was that the world will continue functioning just find if you and everyone else loses their faith.

It would actually most likely function better if people stopped trying to force their non provable beliefs on others.

Wow, AGAIN you have no idea what you're talking about. Look up any sociological information on what people groups do more to help the poor and needy anywhere in the world and you will find it is Christians. Most money given, most volunteer hours worked. Foot binding in China was ended by Christian missionaries. A Christian organization called International Justice Mission frees thousands of slaves every year, many of which were children sold into sexual slavery. I could go on and on.
Even the idea that everyone deserves to be treated well and should be helped isn't a universal concept by the way. (in fact it even goes against survival of the fittest if you think about it). In India for example the caste system teaches that you shouldn't help the poor because they deserve to be there.
The world would be far FAR worse off without Christianity.

 

[NickNitro]

Oh boy this threads blown up. Teelie was right. This was just going to turn into a sideshow

 

[Snow Queen]

This baffles me. Help me out here, what makes life special? What makes a life with no eternal ramifications more special?

In retrospect, I should have gone with my original wording of precious rather than special. More reason to enjoy one's life than to expect something better at the end of it. There's no more impact by tacking an afterlife onto it. Sure, I think it'd be nice if there were one and I could stay with the people I love forever, but I do not believe there is an afterlife of any kind and it makes the time I do get to spend with those people I love even more special to me.

I'll hit this one too before I go.

I understand the mentality, but I know I wouldn't look at it that way. After embracing the idea of eternity, 80 years is nothing. It wouldn't be special to me, it'd be a quick race to obscurity. Everyone I look at will die, and everything I see or create will wither away to nothing and be forgotten. We'll all be those old graves that you can't even read any more, so how special could a measly 80 years really be?

Sorry to bring it down, but that's just how my mind works. It's why I refuse to completely let go of God even when my faith wans and dangles by a thread. There are other reasons, like I said, but this is one of the bigger ones.

But hey, if you can find life special without God, I'm happy for you

Fair enough. I can understand where you're coming from on this, though I don't believe the same.

 

[SV Fan]

I doubt they'd want a record kept of the one person that helped bring their empire to it's knees.

Egyptian records included times they lost

 

[KevanG]

I'm a bit tired of arguing my point and having it ignored so explain this to me then guys, how does fossil evidence factor into creationism? There's easily hundreds of fossils that have been carbon dated back thousands of years charting human evolution through varying stages. We aren't including dinosaurs or anything just us ape men.

 

[Hal_Jordan]

Wow, AGAIN you have no idea what you're talking about. Look up any sociological information on what people groups do more to help the poor and needy anywhere in the world and you will find it is Christians. Most money given, most volunteer hours worked. Foot binding in China was ended by Christian missionaries. A Christian organization called International Justice Mission frees thousands of slaves every year, many of which were children sold into sexual slavery. I could go on and on.

And everyone can also go on and on about the atrocities and genocide that God told people to commit.

Even the idea that everyone deserves to be treated well and should be helped isn't a universal concept by the way. (in fact it even goes against survival of the fittest if you think about it). In India for example the caste system teaches that you shouldn't help the poor because they deserve to be there.
The world would be far FAR worse off without Christianity.

That's certainly an opinion. Ridiculously biased and based on nothing but assumptions, but it is an opinion.

 

[The End]

I don't get your reasoning though.Who started Christianity?The Tooth Fairy?
There's is more than enough evidence that Jesus lived.Like it or not,the most hardened skeptic can't prove otherwise.

Oy oy oy.

Here's the reasoning. Caeser - documents written by Caeser, coins bearing the image and name of Caeser, portraits bearing his likeness, other independent writings, dated to within the lifetime of Caeser.

We can be more certain that Caeser existed, than people written about who do not have any of that.

People writing about Jesus, nearly a century or later after Jesus was supposed to have died, is weak evidence that Jesus actually existed. No archaeological or independent evidence of any sort that he existed. There is the bible, the gospels, though the authors can be disputed, and the gospels contain erroneous claims that we otherwise wouldn't take seriously, such as people rising from the dead.

People find this hard to deal with.

'Who started Christianity?The Tooth Fairy?'

Who started all the other religions that you don't believe in? Joseph Smith who started Mormonism, was famous for telling tall tales. Who made up Zeus? If you can't see how flawed what you said is, I cannot help you.

 

[NickNitro]

I just honestly don't understand how the two can exist together. Creationism and evolution. Why must there always be one or the other. I guess it's more exciting trying to jam your thoughts down someone else's throat.

 

[KevanG]

Heyheyhey don't piss off Zeus. He's a wrathful son of a... I mean a very kind and generous lord. Please don't smite me.

 

[Hal_Jordan]

Wow, AGAIN you have no idea what you're talking about. Look up any sociological information on what people groups...

This is where I lose interest. Religion in general was created to control the masses. The masses were idiots and were easily manipulated into fearing a supreme being. Rulers for centuries have abused this power, and they continue to do so, because it's just that easy to do.

 

[JewishHobbit]

I'm a bit tired of arguing my point and having it ignored so explain this to me then guys, how does fossil evidence factor into creationism? There's easily hundreds of fossils that have been carbon dated back thousands of years charting human evolution through varying stages. We aren't including dinosaurs or anything just us ape men.

How about Gap Theory? I don't believe in it, but I suppose it could fit in here.


Basically, other people lived on Earth after God created it but before Adam and Eve (taking place between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2, theoretically backed by a story of destruction in Isaiah I think). People He wiped out before restarting life with the Garden of Eden. Again, I don't subscribe to the theory, but it's an interesting one to read about.

Alright, I'm officially gone now. I have to be up at 3:30 in the morning

 

[random_havoc]

And everyone can also go on and on about the atrocities and genocide that God told people to commit.


That's certainly an opinion. Ridiculously biased and based on nothing but assumptions, but it is an opinion.

I'm about done wasting my time on you. Go get an education so you actually have some understanding of what you're asserting in the future. Then come back here and re-read your own comments so you can realize how embarrassed you should be by them.

 

[Hal_Jordan]

I'm about done wasting my time on you. Go get an education so you actually have some understanding of what you're asserting in the future. Then come back here and re-read your own comments so you can realize how embarrassed you should be by them.

Right. I'm not trying to tell you the gospel of Superman, and how in 100 years he could be just as real as Jesus.

 

[DrCosmic]

DrCosmic is a lethal theist. Maybe a modern day Thomas Aquinas, why not.

But we're dealing in abstract concepts. And that's all. DrCosmic's god is still a god of the gaps.

We have yet to decypher the mysteries of the universe's beginnings, so. . . "a wizard did it".

I'll take that as a compliment... I think? Logical contradiction (not simply a gap in knowledge) leads me to an abstract concept, which is where we get to why the wizard did it, talk about real relevant issues of purpose and faith. Some choose to believe, in faith, that the universe sprang from nothing of no accord... or that there has always been something, or that time is an illusion. We are all free to choose what we place faith in. I choose not to put mine in humanity.

I wouldn't say it makes it more special but it makes it far different. If you know that there's nothing afterwards then it makes you think more about what matters now. If nothing happens to you when you die then why be good? Why not be a bastard and just kill rape and loot everything because there's no consequences? It's all about the legacy you leave behind. All power dies and memory fades.In the end it's not how you are now that you'll be remembered for, it's how you were to the people that mattered to you.

There's people out there that don't believe in any afterlife and they aren't murderous lunatics and there's heavily religious people who are serial killers and on both sides of the scale there's everyone else on the planet in between. History couldn't care less what you thought would happen when you die. If you leave a legacy worth reading about how would you want it to read?

Well, observably, there are consequences to being a bastard, especially that kind, so I can see how people of all walks of life may want to avoid it. "Legacy" sounds naive to me. Legacy is a function of PR, not so much actions. There's also the fact that legacy fades. But I see it now, people use Legacy the same way other people use Afterlife. It's actually interchangeable emotionally. Fascinating.

Me personally I'm much more interested in how my actions reflect on my creator than "where I'm going to end up" or whatever.

I'm afraid that its warranted.


This is considered a settled issue in science. There are stacks and stacks and stacks of peer review science journals across multiple fields of science that back up evolution.

There is a religious and politically motivated denial against all of that - exactly how much patience can this movement be afforded, especially considering the damage they do to education?

Many people of every belief system consider it a settled issue. If common courtesy is only extended to people who agree with you, and rudeness is warranted to everyone who doesn't... I can't accurately describe you without becoming like you.

And honestly, since the theist 'movement' has existed since pre-history, and has done a great deal for education throughout the millenia, I suspect that an unprecedented amount of patience would be warranted.

 

[The End]

I do get enjoyment from life, but knowing that nothing in this lie goes beyond another 40 or 50 years makes all that joy pointless. There being a God brings me a lot of personal joy in a lot of ways that someone who has never believed could never understand. It's like a person who has never had children trying to fathom what it's like having a son or daughter of your own, or a person who hates dogs trying to fathom why some owners treat their dogs like children. They just can't get it until they experience it.

Yes, there are things in life that bring me joy, but with nothing meaning anything what's the point in any of it? Happiness is shallow if all its meant for is to get us through life. That's a very limited way of looking at life, and I'd be miserable living that way.

I think for me, my mind has expanded to fathom an eternity, life with my children is not limited. Time spent with friends does not stop but for a short snippet of time. I've build a mindset that I have a father when I haven't really had a real one in my life, and to lose God would be like someone realizing they've never had a father after growing up with one. I would lose a whole heck of a lot more if there weren't a God than if there was.

I think the question of what people get out of life is all subjective anyway so I can't really argue with your position. If that's how you feel, that's how you feel.

There is a position, though, that the realization that this life is finite and the only one we'll have makes it all the more precious and to get the maximum benefit you have to live it to its fullest. I get a lot of enjoyment from a great many things and sure, death is a bummer, but I'd rather live honestly than cling to (no offence) comfortable delusions. I'd seriously challenge the notion that only a god can make life mean anything but I'll leave it at that.

 

[NickNitro]

Right. I'm not trying to tell you the gospel of Superman, and how in 100 years he could be just as real as Jesus.

lol ok this is ridiculous and you know it. Jesus if anything was alive, at least was a documented man. You just made yourself look dumb.

 

[KevanG]

"Legacy" sounds naive to me. Legacy is a function of PR, not so much actions. But I see it now, people use Legacy the same way other people use Afterlife. It's actually the same thing, emotionally. Fascinating.

It's similar. It's why there's many quotes about famous people saying "Let history judge me for my actions." They aren't saying whether they believe they'll be judged by any god, whether they believe or not but for others to decide whether their actions were correct. Everyone wants to be remembered when they're gone in some way.