Ken Ham vs Bill Nye (Is creation a viable model of origins?)

[Hal_Jordan]

I never once said evolution is a pack of lies. I also feel its a travesty that both ideas can't co exist. Why do you have to have one and not the other? I've never fully understood it. Why can't I believe that God created Earth and life, and that primitive life evolved into man.

I hate threads like this because I get into arguments with people I'd probably get along with in any other environment.

I wasn't saying "you" in particular, but that's usually the argument.

The people who believe that (any)God and scripture can coexist with evolution aren't the problem, and they don't generally get into debates like this because A)They don't care enough to, or B)They believe in evolution too.

The problem comes when you have evolution on one side with lots of verifiable proof and evidence, and on the other side is creationism. Those two just can not logically really coexist.

 

[NickNitro]

I get it. I guess I just got heated because I felt like my religion was being attacked. Of course I'm going to get defensive with some of the comments made towards something I believe in. (that was a general statement not aimed at anyone in particular)

I think the liberal Christian movement is a strong one, one that could potentially finally allow science and religion to peacefully coexist.

 

[Donnie Darko]

Oh no, I just read a little bit about Ken Ham on wikipedia (a fine source when we are discussing science and fact, I know). Poor guy is going to use the "were you there?" argument over and over.

 

[NickNitro]

Great...another public venue where the religious just look like a bunch of narrow minded morons.

 

[Teelie]

To be fair I've seen plenty of scientific types act the same way...

 

[Superwoman Prime]

I get it. I guess I just got heated because I felt like my religion was being attacked. Of course I'm going to get defensive with some of the comments made towards something I believe in. (that was a general statement not aimed at anyone in particular)

I think the liberal Christian movement is a strong one, one that could potentially finally allow science and religion to peacefully coexist.

I guess, but liberal Christianity is in direct conflict with the Holy Bible. We'll have even more cognitive dissonance on our hands.

 

[NickNitro]

Not all Christians take the Bible at 100% face value. I'd like to think most of us use it more like a road map than something to live directly by.

 

[Feenix]

I've been to the Christianpost.com website. They post news stories and people are able to comment on said stories.

The most hostile, rude, and generally violent individuals who comment are conservative Christians. They attack liberal Christians on such a personal, emotional, spiritual level that it's amazing any of them keep coming back to comment.

One person commented about how God loves everyone, including homosexuals and she was attacked with such hostility that people went as far as to say she would join the gays in hell.

We seem to only hear about the conservative Christians because they screech the loudest. Their liberal counterparts are too afraid to say anything. I don't blame them.

 

[Marvolo]

I've been to the Christianpost.com website. They post news stories and people are able to comment on said stories.

The most hostile, rude, and generally violent individuals who comment are conservative Christians. They attack liberal Christians on such a personal, emotional, spiritual level that it's amazing any of them keep coming back to comment.

One person commented about how God loves everyone, including homosexuals and she was attacked with such hostility that people went as far as to say she would join the gays in hell.

We seem to only hear about the conservative Christians because they screech the loudest. Their liberal counterparts are too afraid to say anything. I don't blame them.

The Apostle Paul liked to harp about homosexuality and he considered those who approved of it or didnt oppose it to be as guilty as those who commited it. (I dont think homosexuals are guilty of anything.) Fundamentalists or anyone who belives that Paul spoke or wrote down God's holy word and spoke God's decrees are gonna agree with him or accept his opinion in the matter. Im not gay, but i won't fight the right for everyone to enjoy marriage and union. By Paul's logic im equally worthy of hell.

 

[JewishHobbit]

The Apostle Paul liked to harp about homosexuality and he considered those who approved of it or didnt oppose it to be as guilty as those who commited it. (I dont think homosexuals are guilty of anything.) Fundamentalists or anyone who belives that Paul spoke or wrote down God's holy word and spoke God's decrees are gonna agree with him or accept his opinion in the matter. Im not gay, but i won't fight the right for everyone to enjoy marriage and union. By Paul's logic im equally worthy of hell.

If you want to read an interesting take on that sort of thing, HERE is a sermon given a few years ago that talks about homosexuality in the Bible and why it might not be condemning it. I found it interesting anyway.

 

[JewishHobbit]

I've been to the Christianpost.com website. They post news stories and people are able to comment on said stories.

The most hostile, rude, and generally violent individuals who comment are conservative Christians. They attack liberal Christians on such a personal, emotional, spiritual level that it's amazing any of them keep coming back to comment.

One person commented about how God loves everyone, including homosexuals and she was attacked with such hostility that people went as far as to say she would join the gays in hell.

We seem to only hear about the conservative Christians because they screech the loudest. Their liberal counterparts are too afraid to say anything. I don't blame them.

Yeah, that is definitely a problem. My wife and I were very conservative and proud of it... also very loud, opinionated, and not very kind in our approach. Well, to be honest that was more me. My wife was raised in it but never quite took it as LOUDLY as the rest of her family. I came into it when I was 15 and was caught hook line and sinker. Oh yeah, I was early on the "Harry Potter's the Devil!" bandwagon, and don't you dare let me hear you listening to secular music. People who listen to Eminem shouldn't call themselves Christian!

Anyway, we had to step out of our church for a few years due to work and then laziness. By the time we came back we realized how much we'd changed and how much that mentality just wasn't us any more. Nowadays we both get so irritated by the things our friends and her family say and their preprogrammed responses to every little think people protest against. I get that they're preaching what they think is right, but it's so off-putting and (I feel) completely misses the point of Christianity. Fortunately there are a LOT of Christians out there who AREN'T like that, including Conservative Christians. As with everything else, there isn't a lumped up group who are exactly the same.

 

[Marvolo]

Yeah, that is definitely a problem. My wife and I were very conservative and proud of it... also very loud, opinionated, and not very kind in our approach. Well, to be honest that was more me. My wife was raised in it but never quite took it as LOUDLY as the rest of her family. I came into it when I was 15 and was caught hook line and sinker. Oh yeah, I was early on the "Harry Potter's the Devil!" bandwagon, and don't you dare let me hear you listening to secular music. People who listen to Eminem shouldn't call themselves Christian!

Anyway, we had to step out of our church for a few years due to work and then laziness. By the time we came back we realized how much we'd changed and how much that mentality just wasn't us any more. Nowadays we both get so irritated by the things our friends and her family say and their preprogrammed responses to every little think people protest against. I get that they're preaching what they think is right, but it's so off-putting and (I feel) completely misses the point of Christianity. Fortunately there are a LOT of Christians out there who AREN'T like that, including Conservative Christians. As with everything else, there isn't a lumped up group who are exactly the same.

My experience. I was in church from the time i was 2 months old. My grandmother has the date in her bible. My family was never strict about it tho. The Lord was a part of our lives and doings but we didnt get militant towards others. Live and let live. So I never felt the pressure. It was a reassuring part of my life. Then I went to a christian school that was strict baptist that believed that the KJV bible was the only english bible god approved of and that its word was law and the rules to live by. Just to give an example of their way of doing things: we had a church service once a week at school. The week that Heath Ledger died the head administrator who wad also a pastor stood behind the pulpit and preached on hpllywood decadance and their impending doom. He assured us "The homosexual deviant Heath Ledger was burning in hell at that very moment." Mind you, there were kids as young as 7 in that auditorium while he is talking about another person burning for eternity. Apparently acting in a movie about homosexuals (Brokeback Mountain) is enough to earn an express ticket to hell. Anyways, that was the pervading logic of that school. Follow our doctrine walk to the altar and believe in christ so that he can come into your heart and change your life or suffer the fires of hell. All other denominations , most of all the Catholics and that ****e of Babylon that sets on Vatican Hill, were lost and going to hell. *These are not my thoughts on other denominations and the catholics.

Now it wasnt all bad. The teachers, most anyways, genuinely cared about us and watched out for us and didnt preach at us. They all didnt agree with the administrator's hard line tactics. I had good friends and never had to deal with bullying so when i was given the choice to leave I wouldnt.

The extreme form of the baptist denomination that I encountered their instilled in me a drive to discover my own truths and to research every religion and denomination as much as i could. Ive never stopped reading the bible or other religious texts. I study theology as a hobby and in ways I feel that im closer to a spiritual understanding than would be possible if i hadnt allowed myself to stay in that lion's den. I didnt get the best education and Ill prolly never have a scholarship handed to me, but ive seen the crazy side of christianity and it gave me a great perspective. One that I wouldnt trade. I havent went to a church service in years, and have forever left the Baptist faith. (I know they all arent extreme, but in my studies Ive realised it isnt the doctrine for me). Someday I might get back in church, but until then Im on a journey. And it wouldnt have been possible without those fundamentalists.

 

[JewishHobbit]

My experience. I was in church from the time i was 2 months old. My grandmother has the date in her bible. My family was never strict about it tho. The Lord was a part of our lives and doings but we didnt get militant towards others. Live and let live. So I never felt the pressure. It was a reassuring part of my life. Then I went to a christian school that was strict baptist that believed that the KJV bible was the only english bible god approved of and that its word was law and the rules to live by. Just to give an example of their way of doing things: we had a church service once a week at school. The week that Heath Ledger died the head administrator who wad also a pastor stood behind the pulpit and preached on hpllywood decadance and their impending doom. He assured us "The homosexual deviant Heath Ledger was burning in hell at that very moment." Mind you, there were kids as young as 7 in that auditorium while he is talking about another person burning for eternity. Apparently acting in a movie about homosexuals (Brokeback Mountain) is enough to earn an express ticket to hell. Anyways, that was the pervading logic of that school. Follow our doctrine walk to the altar and believe in christ so that he can come into your heart and change your life or suffer the fires of hell. All other denominations , most of all the Catholics and that ****e of Babylon that sets on Vatican Hill, were lost and going to hell. *These are not my thoughts on other denominations and the catholics.

Now it wasnt all bad. The teachers, most anyways, genuinely cared about us and watched out for us and didnt preach at us. They all didnt agree with the administrator's hard line tactics. I had good friends and never had to deal with bullying so when i was given the choice to leave I wouldnt.

The extreme form of the baptist denomination that I encountered their instilled in me a drive to discover my own truths and to research every religion and denomination as much as i could. Ive never stopped reading the bible or other religious texts. I study theology as a hobby and in ways I feel that im closer to a spiritual understanding than would be possible if i hadnt allowed myself to stay in that lion's den. I didnt get the best education and Ill prolly never have a scholarship handed to me, but ive seen the crazy side of christianity and it gave me a great perspective. One that I wouldnt trade. I havent went to a church service in years, and have forever left the Baptist faith. (I know they all arent extreme, but in my studies Ive realised it isnt the doctrine for me). Someday I might get back in church, but until then Im on a journey. And it wouldnt have been possible without those fundamentalists.

I came out of a Pentecostal church (Church of God was the specific sect). I'm happy to say that the pastor who is there now is actually an amazing, loving man who I would trust in anything. He is amazing. Sadly, I started going there under the previous administration. That pastor was very typical of the loud, opinionated Christian. Very anti-homosexual, anti-secular music, etc. He always taught the War on Christmas and other such things. I remember one service he declared that a homosexual will never step foot in his church while he's still leading it (and even back then I felt that was wrong and completely missed the point of Jesus' teachings). He was very much one of those stubborn, hardcore Christians... and so was the youth pastor that I was 'saved' under... even more so. As it turned out, that pastor was eventually caught in an affair (in the church parking lot) and was removed. They got the new guy in and everything turned around for the better. The place became a good church after that, but by the time my wife and I came back from our hiatus, it just wasn't for us anymore.

We church hopped for a while and never found one we liked until we found a non-denominational church. We loved that one and have been going there for the past four years or so. It's a mega church, so you lose the family feel that I miss, but it was great. A friend of ours started a non-denominational church a couple years ago, and we're planning on visiting it this coming Sunday to give it a shot. My friend came out of the Church of God like us but thinks more like I do. In fact, the Church of God contacted them on multiple situations about joining the Church of God sect and they passed on it every time. If we like it we might stay. I actually have a lesbian co-worker who goes there and absolutely LOVES it. I asked her if they knew about her lifestyle and she said those who needed to know (the pastor and his staff) know and still let her worship there. I took that as a great sign that it's a good, loving church.

So yeah, non-denominational seems to be the one for me. I'd recommend giving it a shot whenever you feel like exploring churches again.

 

[Marvolo]

I came out of a Pentecostal church (Church of God was the specific sect). I'm happy to say that the pastor who is there now is actually an amazing, loving man who I would trust in anything. He is amazing. Sadly, I started going there under the previous administration. That pastor was very typical of the loud, opinionated Christian. Very anti-homosexual, anti-secular music, etc. He always taught the War on Christmas and other such things. I remember one service he declared that a homosexual will never step foot in his church while he's still leading it (and even back then I felt that was wrong and completely missed the point of Jesus' teachings). He was very much one of those stubborn, hardcore Christians... and so was the youth pastor that I was 'saved' under... even more so. As it turned out, that pastor was eventually caught in an affair (in the church parking lot) and was removed. They got the new guy in and everything turned around for the better. The place became a good church after that, but by the time my wife and I came back from our hiatus, it just wasn't for us anymore.

We church hopped for a while and never found one we liked until we found a non-denominational church. We loved that one and have been going there for the past four years or so. It's a mega church, so you lose the family feel that I miss, but it was great. A friend of ours started a non-denominational church a couple years ago, and we're planning on visiting it this coming Sunday to give it a shot. My friend came out of the Church of God like us but thinks more like I do. In fact, the Church of God contacted them on multiple situations about joining the Church of God sect and they passed on it every time. If we like it we might stay. I actually have a lesbian co-worker who goes there and absolutely LOVES it. I asked her if they knew about her lifestyle and she said those who needed to know (the pastor and his staff) know and still let her worship there. I took that as a great sign that it's a good, loving church.

So yeah, non-denominational seems to be the one for me. I'd recommend giving it a shot whenever you feel like exploring churches again.

Ive considered non-denominational. I was invited to attend a service at one the Elevation mega churches. Have you heard of them? Im not really a fan of their 12 or so step mission statement. They even have an orientation class you have to take to join the church. Its a bit too much like a business for my liking. In the end im just not ready to return to church. I still have some growing to do and I need to be stronger in my beliefs and convictions before I try that out again. I also would like to find a pastor or a priest who opens a book other than the bible and steps outside his comfort zone. I respect them a lot more when their head isnt buried in the sand. I dont expect them to agree with everything they read, but just knowing that they are hearing the other sides means a lot to me.

 

[Marvolo]

If you want to read an interesting take on that sort of thing, HERE is a sermon given a few years ago that talks about homosexuality in the Bible and why it might not be condemning it. I found it interesting anyway.

Thank you for the link.

 

[Hal_Jordan]

I've always wondered about these "mega churches." To me they seem almost more like corporations than churches.

edit: I'm not condemning them, because I spend my money on things that make me happy too.

 

[JewishHobbit]

I've always wondered about these "mega churches." To me they seem almost more like corporations than churches.

edit: I'm not condemning them, because I spend my money on things that make me happy too.

I can only speak of my own experiences, but the smaller churches were more corporation-like than the mega church. Most of the mega church hate that I've heard tend to come from people who prefer smaller churches and just assume that something bad is happening in mega churches (which is silly).

 

[Marvolo]

I've always wondered about these "mega churches." To me they seem almost more like corporations than churches.

edit: I'm not condemning them, because I spend my money on things that make me happy too.

My one main point of concern with mega churches is that its simply not possible for the pastor to get to his whole flock. The pastor that started Elevation has staff who handle weddings and funerals and baptisms. The Elevation closest to me has an 8,000+ member congregation. Its simply inpossible for a single man to be there for them all...which is why i thinks its not a good idea to have a congregation like that under one pastor. My pastors always handled the funerals, weddings, and made house calls themselves because it was their flock. When your flock becomes too large to personally manage you cant personally meet the requirements of a shepherd. Im all for having deacons and staff to help, but the pastor should always be their when his flock need him. There with the staff. Not off handling other business. Thats just my opinion tho.

Mega churches serve a legitimate purpose, but they arent really my cup of tea.

 

[Feenix]

I'm not against mega churches per se, but I am leery of their pastors.

You know, the same ones that take Jesus' words to heart, except that little bit about rich men having a hard time getting into heaven. I think those pastors are despicable and shouldn't be preaching to any flock. I respect the little guy, not their super rich, corrupt, and borderline evil counterparts.

 

[Marvolo]

If you want to read an interesting take on that sort of thing, HERE is a sermon given a few years ago that talks about homosexuality in the Bible and why it might not be condemning it. I found it interesting anyway.

Wanted to let you know I read that, and it was great. I saved it to my favorites. Some people I know might benefit from reading that. Thanks for posting the link.

 

[jmc]

I don't buy that reasoning. Just because a 'chinese whisper' gets popular doesn't mean there's any truth to it at all. I point to Mormonism and Joseph Smith as an example; (sorry to any mormons here) Joseph Smith was an obvious liar, famous for telling tall tales.

The only difference is the time frame.

If anything, "well, it was so long ago and people were so illiterate that it had to be passed around orally and that's why there's no documentation" just makes it ALL the harder to determine what actually happened so that does nothing to convince me that Jesus actually existed; I have no way to determine the historical Jesus from the tall tales of an equivalent Joseph Smith of that time.

When it comes to this issue, there's some theists that will get... a little dishonest, (like comparing the historicity of Jesus to that of Caeser, but we actually have examples of things Caeser wrote himself).

There's also good reason to think that parts of the Jesus story are based on even older myths. So it isn't necessary for the story to be based on an actual person, when it could also be the case that they're influenced by older stories.

http://dalje.com/en-lifestyle/is-myth-of-jesus-christ-copy-of-early-legends/212288

Horus had a virgin mother. Other similarities between Horus and Jesus in the link.

I'm not dismissing that parts, if not the vast majority of the Jesus story has been taken from other sources, in fact I agree 100% that is the case. That said the Crucifixion is the key element that has a basis for consistency as it has been documented in several ancient text not all of which were Christian. A lot of the stories of Jesus' life as you pointed out have been filled in through various means, borrowings of other myths and legends. What you've got to remember is that if someone by the name of Jesus or Yeshua didn't actually exist, somebody was the inspiration or the influence of the stories because ultimately without that person preaching his teaching we wouldn't even have Christianity today. If you're looking for documents from his lifetime you're never going to get them, but even if you don't accept he existed you have to accept some real life person was the basis for the character.

 

[Marvolo]

I'm not dismissing that parts, if not the vast majority of the Jesus story has been taken from other sources, in fact I agree 100% that is the case. That said the Crucifixion is the key element that has a basis for consistency as it has been documented in several ancient text not all of which were Christian. A lot of the stories of Jesus' life as you pointed out have been filled in through various means, borrowings of other myths and legends. What you've got to remember is that if someone by the name of Jesus or Yeshua didn't actually exist, somebody was the inspiration or the influence of the stories because ultimately without that person preaching his teaching we wouldn't even have Christianity today. If you're looking for documents from his lifetime you're never going to get them, but even if you don't accept he existed you have to accept some real life person was the basis for the character.

Yeah even if jesus we read about in the gospels wasnt real someone inspired the story of the man we call jesus.

There were literally a hundred or more "messiahs" running around Judea proclaiming themselves god or the son of god during the roman occupation. It was truly a problem that irritated the empire. Most have dissappeard from history and many were legitimately crazy. Jesus or whatever the man's name really was whoever he was, crazy or not, did exist.

That being said, Jesus is a symbol. A way of life. Whether the Jesus of the bible existed is irrelevant now. He exists in the hearts and minds of billions as an idea to live up to and evidence or no evidence of a human called jesus changes nothing in the minds of the faithful ultimately.

Personally I doubt the Jesus of the gospel existed, but the one in the bible isnt a bad role model in most cases. The sermon on the mount is one of the best life codes mankind has ever put to paper.

 

[JewishHobbit]

I'm not against mega churches per se, but I am leery of their pastors.

You know, the same ones that take Jesus' words to heart, except that little bit about rich men having a hard time getting into heaven. I think those pastors are despicable and shouldn't be preaching to any flock. I respect the little guy, not their super rich, corrupt, and borderline evil counterparts.

This is an assumption and generalization that drives me nuts. Just because they preach at a big church doesn't mean they have some major greedy love of money. Most pastors go where they feel led, not because of a paycheck.

Being in a mega church provides opportunities that smaller churches do not have. Take my church for example. Yeah, they bring in a lot of money, but instead of paying their pastors top dollar, they use a lot of it to build a huge building next door called the Healing Center that does a lot of stuff for the community for free. It has a huge pantry, job training; it collects old clothes, furniture, and vehicles for those in need. It has programs that help various types of addicted people get clean. They give out water on highways on hot days. They give out blankets on cold ones. We also pay for wells to be dug in areas of Africa that have no clean water. Not just here and there, but consistently.

All this came from my pastor. He didn't horde a dime of that money. He used it to continue blessing our community.

I'm not saying there aren't greedy mega church pastors, but it's not a fairy assumption to make about all of them.

My one main point of concern with mega churches is that its simply not possible for the pastor to get to his whole flock. The pastor that started Elevation has staff who handle weddings and funerals and baptisms. The Elevation closest to me has an 8,000+ member congregation. Its simply inpossible for a single man to be there for them all...which is why i thinks its not a good idea to have a congregation like that under one pastor. My pastors always handled the funerals, weddings, and made house calls themselves because it was their flock. When your flock becomes too large to personally manage you cant personally meet the requirements of a shepherd. Im all for having deacons and staff to help, but the pastor should always be their when his flock need him. There with the staff. Not off handling other business. Thats just my opinion tho.

Now THIS is a legitimate concern about mega churches and is the one major flaw that I have with my church. It's the reason we're potentially looking into my friends' smaller, new church. I love the teachings and music of the mega church, but there is no sense of family. They try to remedy that with 'small groups'. Basically, a small group of people gather every week to discuss the previous message as well as do other fun things together to begin building that small family feel. But I realized a few months ago that if something ever happened to me and I was sitting in a hospital bed, none of the pastors would ever know. I'd probably get visits from two or three other pastors I knew from smaller churches, but not my current ones. That sorta bugged me.

 

[JewishHobbit]

Wanted to let you know I read that, and it was great. I saved it to my favorites. Some people I know might benefit from reading that. Thanks for posting the link.

Yeah, I found it to be a pretty impressive read. I have a friend who grew up in my old church who came out as gay a little over a year ago (after moving 4 states away). He studied the old Greek and Hebrew Bible in college, studied the time period it was written in, etc. and he says that the sermon is spot on his beliefs and findings as well.

 

[Mike_D202]

*deep breath*

RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE!!!!