The Last Jedi Luke Skywalker's role in "The Last Jedi": Did you like it?

[Boom]

Last Jedi Spoilers:

Spoiler

Couldn't they bring Luke back as a Force Ghost in Episode IX?

 

[kickass]

Last Jedi Spoilers:

Spoiler

Couldn't they bring Luke back as a Force Ghost in Episode IX?

Yes and they most likely will, so I don’t understand all the finality to everyone’s doom and gloom.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Last Jedi Spoilers:

Spoiler

Couldn't they bring Luke back as a Force Ghost in Episode IX?

This is pretty much what I thought was going to happen. And given Carrie's passing even more likely now.

 

[Boom]

Yes and they most likely will, so I don’t understand all the finality to everyone’s doom and gloom.

Exactly.

 

[Flemm]

I'm half expecting...

Spoiler

force ghost Luke to continue his posthumous hero's journey and defeat the First Order, inspiring a new series of transparent blue in-universe action figures.

He might be the first force ghost to engage in actual combat, which would be a meta commentary on the end of this movie.

In all seriousness, that probably won't happen until the next trilogy

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Only if we get to see him bring Merlin, Jaga and all the other ethereal mentor characters with him. Like a ghost League Of Extraordinary Gentlemen.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

I think it's an unworkable idea moving forward.

The director probably wasn't thinking in those terms, but more about the awkward transition between RotJ and TFA, which has the First Order immediately rise up to replace the Empire.

But this concept would mean that the rebellion shouldn't try to defeat the First Order because another evil empire would just immediately take its place.

By trying to be good, you are just provoking the universe to create evil as a counter-balance.

While I only have a passing knowledge of the Taoist philosophies that inspired the light/dark stuff originally, I'm pretty sure that's not how those philosophies view the world. The concepts are much more subtle than that.

It's not that any good you accomplish will face a backlash from the universe.

I think it leaves the door open for alot more grey jedi stuff in the future.

Also they never explicitly state that Luke's tragedy and failure was the force pushing back.

They only hint this and if you use it as a window into Luke's mindset his actions make alot more sense.

Of course not every jedi in the future has to view things the same way. I doubt Luke wrote a "why being a jedi doesn't matter" book that every future jedi will read.

 

[Lilbaz]

I don't think they handled him well.
The last time we saw him was 30 years ago as a jedi knight. I wanted to see him as a full jedi master. The most powerful force user to have ever lived. I wanted to see him throw at ats about. Just to show what he was capable of.
What we got was poor.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

"I'm looking for a great warrior."

"Great warrior? Wars not make one great."

 

[Flemm]

They only hint this and if you use it as a window into Luke's mindset his actions make alot more sense.

From Luke's point of view, one can interpret some of these ideas as the perspective of a depressed man who feels that all of his actions will result in failure and that the universe is almost out to punish him. Those are real feelings that one can have during depression, but with a flavor that is specific to Star Wars. Fine.

However, there are other details in the film, completely independent of Luke, that seem to confirm a similar interpretation of the Force, such as Snoke's explanation for Rey's powers. Again, we don't need to assume that he is right, but his point of view is defined by a similar sort of thinking, and he is triumphant, rather than depressed.

You're right, of course, that the 3rd film isn't locked into anything, but all of this poses a big challenge for the finale of the trilogy.

Somehow the story has to be resolved so that a victory doesn't feel completely futile.

I think this film makes it very difficult to just go with a traditional victory. Which may have been Johnson's intent, but it's certainly a problem that he has left for the next director.

Or they could ignore or retcon some of this stuff. That's also possible.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Most of the audience will view the resistence defeating the First Order or killing Kylo Ren as a significant and worthwhile victory.

Most people don't overanalyze the underlying themes.

Which is why many are calling Luke a coward.

 

[C. Lee]

The oldest, wisest, and most respected Jedi said these things -

Wars not make one great.

A Jedi must have the deepest commitment. The most serious mind.

Adventure. Excitement. A Jedi craves not these things.

A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense...never for attack.


In this movie....Luke became the best purest Jedi of all....he followed the Jedi teachings to their ultimate end.

 

[Mad Ones]

The oldest, wisest, and most respected Jedi said these things -

Wars not make one great.

A Jedi must have the deepest commitment. The most serious mind.

Adventure. Excitement. A Jedi craves not these things.

A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense...never for attack.


In this movie....Luke became the best purest Jedi of all....he followed the Jedi teachings to their ultimate end.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

The oldest, wisest, and most respected Jedi said these things -

Wars not make one great.

A Jedi must have the deepest commitment. The most serious mind.

Adventure. Excitement. A Jedi craves not these things.

A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense...never for attack.


In this movie....Luke became the best purest Jedi of all....he followed the Jedi teachings to their ultimate end.

 

[BatmanVSuperman]

I'm quite surprised that Mark Hamill beforehand was hinting at being dissatisfied with what was made, and then after TLJ came out made it eve more clear. Whether you like the film or not, it was gutsy of Mark to be clear with his contrary opinions

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

I'm quite surprised that Mark Hamill beforehand was hinting at being dissatisfied with what was made, and then after TLJ came out made it eve more clear. Whether you like the film or not, it was gutsy of Mark to be clear with his contrary opinions

That's not at all a fair reading of Hamill's comments. The screeching Internet types keep saying this while cherry picking what he has actually said. But... Internet gonna Internet.

 

[BatmanVSuperman]

Lol the #notmyluke movement seems to feel he's far from satisfied with what happened to Luke. Honestly he made it seem like Lucas version was the real Luke, and this is elsworld's Jake Skywalker

 

[Flemm]

Which is why many are calling Luke a coward.

Well, that question came up a lot in interviews with Johnson over the past year or two, and Johnson himself seems to have been very preoccupied by it.

That's one interpretation of the events described in The Force Awakens: Luke ran away.

This movie attempts to explain those events a somewhat different way, and partially by creating other failings for Luke, outside of cowardice. But it also draws attention to the basic problem. So, I don't think that reaction comes from not paying attention to the film, exactly, it comes from not being very convinced by the redemption story.

Luke is supposed to redeem all of those failings at the end of this movie with a final act of self-sacrifice, but apparently not in a way that works for quite a few people. That's not what bothers me about the movie, but it clearly bothers some portion of the audience, that is to say: the redemption is apparently not cathartic or redemptive enough.

Possibly because it is illusion-based. If he were actually there, it might come across as more concrete to people, I guess.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Call it "head canon" if you want but I think it's obvious that Luke in his go for broke gambit knew what the effects could possibly or inevitably be. Doing something you know will end your life takes courage in my view.

 

[Flemm]

It might have been smart to establish the risk beforehand, or to foreshadow that aspect somehow.

But the movie decided to go for the surprise factor instead.

I think the result is that the scene doesn't come across as courageous once you realize he's not really there. He does die afterward, but I guess that's not quite the same for people as risking one's life directly.

So the cowardice doesn't feel like it is properly redeemed, maybe. I'm just musing on the topic, but that is one possible explanation.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

It might have been smart to establish the risk beforehand, or to foreshadow that aspect somehow.

But the movie decided to go for the surprise factor instead.

I think the result is that the scene doesn't come across as courageous once you realize he's not really there. He does die afterward, but I guess that's not quite the same for people as risking one's life directly.

So the cowardice doesn't feel like it is properly redeemed, maybe. I'm just musing on the topic, but that is one possible explanation.

The film DOES foreshadow it though, as others and myself have pointed out. Kylo tells Rey that merely communicating over such vast distances in their Skype sessions was a draining and life threatening act for someone new to the Force. Luke does something on such another level that it obviously exceeds the risk of that simple communication Rey and Kylo was having.

Also... Eh... Not to bring Star Trek into this (I know, I know... BOO! HISS! ) but Spock does something that won't immediately kill him in THE WRATH OF KHAN. Was that less of a sacrifice since he die LATER of radiation poisoning? Or what of in real life where older workers went to Fukishima knowing of the risk of exposure? The effects of certain actions don't have to be immediate to be sefl sacrificial or heroic. If Luke knew what the consequences of what he did would be, and I suggest that he did, then his actions were the very opposite of cowardice.

 

[Flemm]

The film DOES foreshadow it though, as others and myself have pointed out. Kylo tells Rey that merely communicating over such vast distances in their Skype sessions was a draining and life threatening act for someone new to the Force.

You're right to mention that, but did it feel life-threatening? Or even exhausting?

I didn't get that impression.

And we never really get a sense of strain and struggle from Luke either in the finale.

The whole sequence is designed to seem like a traditional heroic act (like a last stand), then he appears to be unharmed, which is impressive, then it is revealed to be an illusion, which undercuts both of the earlier concepts.

Then later he dies, but it's not entirely clear that it's because of the strain from creating the illusion. One has to infer that.

So, I don't know. I understand that it can be justified, but I can also understand why it might not work as a redemption for some people. It's convoluted.

The Wrath of Khan scenario is very clear, by contrast. There is no illusion. Spock obviously suffers and is in pain. He's really there. And Spock isn't even being redeemed, it's just a selfless act.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

You're right to mention that, but did it feel life-threatening? Or even exhausting?

I didn't get that impression.

And we never really get a sense of strain and struggle from Luke either in the finale.

The whole sequence is designed to seem like a traditional heroic act (like a last stand), then he appears to be unharmed, which is impressive, then it is revealed to be an illusion, which undercuts both of the earlier concepts.

Then later he dies, but it's not entirely clear that it's because of the strain from creating the illusion. One has to infer that.

So, I don't know. I understand that it can be justified, but I can also understand why it might not work as a redemption for some people. It's convoluted.

The Wrath of Khan scenario is very clear, by contrast. There is no illusion. Spock obviously suffers and is in pain. He's really there. And Spock isn't even being redeemed, it's just a selfless act.

I would have to see it again but I recall Luke looking strained after his projection fades on Crait.

And I still think WOK is a good equivalent. Both characters took actions that ended their life with foreknowledge of the risks. I don't understand why the revelation of it being a projection under cuts anything when we clearly see that it affects him and he dies because of it. The film sets it up and then shows the consequences. As for having to "infer" it... People always throw aroudn "show don't tell" online. Been doing it for over a decade it seems now. Yet I find that when films actually do that people complain about things being vague or unsatifying. Yet more than two lines of dialog explaining something to the audience and everybody and their brother shout "exposition dump". I feel film makers are just in a bind these days.

 

[Flemm]

As for having to "infer" it... People always throw aroudn "show don't tell" online. Been doing it for over a decade it seems now. Yet I find that when films actually do that people complain about things being vague or unsatifying.

By the same token, it's extremely easy to resort to the idea that people can't make up their minds about what they want, but I don't think there's any contradiction here.

It's not that people want exposition spelling the whole thing out, it's that some people apparently feel that it's not shown clearly enough. Or that the whole scenario is insufficient to redeem what has been shown previously.

In the case of the Wrath of Khan, I think everything is shown much more clearly, partially because the movie isn't trying to trick the audience at any point during that sequence.

The Last Jedi sacrifices a lot by trying to have multiple revelations over the course of the scene.

This is the one absolutely crucial thing that *must* work in the film, and *has* to be satisfying, which is Luke ultimately redeeming himself.

If that doesn't come across, then I think it's fair to consider that the film itself may not have expressed the idea clearly enough.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Well, that question came up a lot in interviews with Johnson over the past year or two, and Johnson himself seems to have been very preoccupied by it.

That's one interpretation of the events described in The Force Awakens: Luke ran away.

This movie attempts to explain those events a somewhat different way, and partially by creating other failings for Luke, outside of cowardice. But it also draws attention to the basic problem. So, I don't think that reaction comes from not paying attention to the film, exactly, it comes from not being very convinced by the redemption story.

Luke is supposed to redeem all of those failings at the end of this movie with a final act of self-sacrifice, but apparently not in a way that works for quite a few people. That's not what bothers me about the movie, but it clearly bothers some portion of the audience, that is to say: the redemption is apparently not cathartic or redemptive enough.

Possibly because it is illusion-based. If he were actually there, it might come across as more concrete to people, I guess.

Saying Luke is a coward because he went into exile completely ignores his personal experience and eventual overview of the force.

Saying Luke is a coward because of force projection completely ignores the "ideas are bullet proof" message of the film and pacifist or passive role of elderly jedi (they don't go on killing sprees).

Either way some may be missing the point both in context of the movie and within the Star Wars mythos.