Manipulation vs Theivery

[Juggertha]

This has come up because of a recent entry to the monthly art challenge, and I thought that it possibly deserved its own thread.

So here's my question to all: When does photo manipulation and art manipulation go from homage and art, to thievery?





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A few pieces I have seen (both here and on the 'net) have been simple cut and paste jobs. Where someone takes a picture of some hot model, clips around her, and puts the image onto a snazzy wallpaper and calls it their own.

Some pieces I've seen have taken a famous photo and warped it so as to look like a characature.

Other pieces have simply drawn vector lines over an existing photo.

Looking on Deviant Art (and other sites), you can see a wide assortment of approaches to the medium.
http://browse.deviantart.com/?qh=&section=&q=photomanipulation#order=9&q=photo+manipulation

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Some of the manips I have seen are truly breathtaking. They've taken an original photo and made it into something unique and astounding. But other's I have seen make me cringe and seem like nothing more than a hack job.

But I guess that's art - it's subjective.

What is less subjective to me is crediting sources.

If someone takes a picture of Obama http://www.collegecandy.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/17/barack-obama.jpg and you vector and manip it http://www.vectorvault.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/obama_time_vectorvault.gif (obviously not the same photo in this example) - how much credit do you owe the original?


I've recently been aghast at some posters' comments regarding this. some feel that as long as you have a different arrangement of characters - that it is now yours. Others seem to think that if they add a blur and saturation (or run it through a PS filter), that it is now theirs.



So I'm asking here because I genuinely want to know: When does photo manipulation and art manipulation go from homage and art, to thievery?

 

[EXCELSIOR]

Here's my take on PHOTO-MANIPS!

You are free do to whatever you want - steal whatever you want and MANIP to your hearts content..

BUT

If you try and pass images off that are NOT yours, images you got from for example Deviant Art and NOT give any credit for the images - no matter how much you changed them - That is WRONG!
And it's been my experience that other artist can be brutal if they catch you doing it...

As far as the FAN ART contests, from day one - (and I've been doing these contests monthly for many years) I've been opposed to them as entries in a contest.

The simple fact that this is a CONTEST implies that any sort of "cheating" is not allowed! - That by using images created by someone else and passing the off as your own as something NEW, has always been a topic of concern.

Back in the old days of the contests, I didn't allow them, for the longest time they were NOT part of the contests - but I got so much HATE MAIL about it, saying how unfair I was to not allow them - so I did...

My whole reason from the the get-go on the contests was to entourage you ALL to draw, to give you an area to post YOUR work, to have others critique it and enjoy a forum for FAN ART!

I allow manips in the contests, as long - and it's part of the monthly rules, that you be creative with the manips - don't just simply cut & paste or change the tints etc... "creativity" has always been key in the fan art contests!

PHOTO manips -vs- ART manips!

Photo-manips are where a real photograph is used weather it be Brad Pitt or Lassie "maniped" into something new... those are fine - as long as its done creative... Simply cutting out Brad Pitt and pasting him on the moon, not very creative!

ART-manips are more tricky, because you are taking the work of another artist and maniping it... and if you are entering a contest - then thats not really all that cool - because 9 times out of 10 you don't have permission to use that artwork!

So the bottom line is with MANIPS (in my opinion) - are fine if you are playing around, trying to figuring out how to use photoshop and posting for fun, but ALWAYS give proper credit - and as for entering contests, try and be ORIGINAL! Remember each month there is a VOTE, if your entry is a manip (even the greatest manips ever created) it's still a manip and voters will take the into consideration when voting.

Using an existing, or other artists work for fun is one thing, but when you attempt to pass it off as your own without giving credit, then that is something else...

I am an artist, I make a living as a working artist in the film & TV industry - and I have been the victim of art plagiarism where someone was actually "profiting" off of my work... and I can't tell you how many times over the years I've been contacted by artists outside of SHH who saw their work being used without permission! So... be smart when doing manips - I'm not saying NOT to do them - they are still allowed in the contest (within reason) just simply...

Be CREATIVE & ORIGINAL!

Hope that clears up my view on manips in the contests!

Feel free to PM with any questions!

 

[Juggertha]

Here's my take on PHOTO-MANIPS!

You are free do to whatever you want - steal whatever you want and MANIP to your hearts content..

BUT

If you try and pass images off that are NOT yours, images you got from for example Deviant Art and NOT give any credit for the images - no matter how much you changed them - That is WRONG!
And it's been my experience that other artist can be brutal if they catch you doing it...

Gotta' ask man; the announcement at the top of these forums seems pretty specific about copyrights and such. http://forums.superherohype.com/announcement.php?f=195&a=113

Do you think that's at all applicable to people using unauthorized images?

 

[spidey-dude]

I hate simple cut and paste manips, same with simple recolourings (which surprisingly won this months contest), theyr just cheap and easy. my own style is based heavily on neto magnus whose photomanipulations got me into it in the first place, and I know he has very strong views on this sort of stuff as (i think) he (and me) believes that it diminishes the hard work that we put into ours

 

[5p1d3r]

I think if you are using another person's "fan art" then it is stealing. I would only use art if it was published official art, but not even then because most of the fun of doing a manip is lost if you just find art of the character.

I think the heart and soul of a manip is taking photo reference and creating something with that. It IS called photo manipulation after all. Not art manipulation.

I think this problem could be solved in the contest if manipulation is limited to photo referense and not art.

The manip police are going to catch it anyway.

 

[Matt.S99]

Well for me, I use pics of an actors face, but the body is a 3d body i do in DAZ, the costumes are taken from various pics, but manipped ALOT. Is that still could as stealing?

One thing I NEVER do is use others art. I find it cheating and uninspired. Even if they give permission, I still think its wrong.

 

[egarza]

hmmm
this is interesting

i sometimes use other artists elements in my own photomanips, but only if it is significantly altered / distorted in some way.

but i guess then it would seize to a photomanip, and become an artmanip.

i think that's a terrible word...

 

[wobbly]

Having worked on a few manip pics myself I'm inclined to consider my efforts as valid (God knows, they take long enough to make...).

Regarding using others original art: A direct lift without permission would certainly be out of order, but how about using something like a famous comic cover as a basis to create a photo realistic manip? I guess it does still have to count as a swipe, but given the work involved to pull one off that seems a little overly dismissive (I'm naturally gonna be biased on that one ).

 

[egarza]

yeah, that's like a compositional homage to another artist's piece. it should be noted with the original work's artist's name.

but i think this is mostly about the actual elements in the manip. not simply the layout

 

[egarza]

yeah, that's like a compositional homage to another artist's piece. it should be noted with the original work's artist's name.

but i think this is mostly about the actual elements in the manip. not simply the layout

 

[Syncos]

I don't know about opinions on the case, but copywrite laws here in canada claim that an image has to be at least 30% different in order to be considered a new piece of work.

I should note that this information comes from my design instructor.