"Market Forces" Discussion Thread

Rate "Market Forces"

  • 5: Awesome!

  • 4: I was great, nice Shocker.

  • 3: Nothing "Spectacular".

  • 2: Whatever.

  • 1: Crap! I hated Montana as Shocker!

Results are only viewable after voting.
xGambit420x said:
I liked the Shocker, i always thought he was a fun second-tier villain. His powers are enough to push Spidey to a serious fight.
Click to expand...
Agreed, even though he's not really on my favorite Villians list, He still has always been an aweosme Villian, IMO.
 
I'll forgive them for Shocker having a needless accent because Spidey made fun of it.
 
The Spectacular Spider-Man "Market Forces" is on Youtube! Watch it before Youtube takes it off.
 
More, memorable lines...

"Are we talking 'Marianas Trench' deep or 'Dante's Ninth Circle' Deep?"

"Carpe Ropum?"

"We've GOT to stop meeting like this! People are starting to talk!"

Did anybody else find it funny how the "A Man's ResPonsibilities" line Pete told AILF May was him quoting a bad guy he fought a few hours before?
 
I enjoyed the Dante's Inferno line also...made me smile.

The ninth circle - traitors and of the like. Four different "Zones".


Just if anyone didn't know, lol.
 
There were a lot of great lines in the episode, it's good to see they got Spideys humor.
 
I've got to be honest here, I think that Spectacular is the best Spidey series yet.


yes, even better than TAS.
 
Better than the films did. Although the exchanges at the Daily Bugle were some of the funniest things I've seen in theaters last summer. J.K. Simmons is gold.
 
I still like the action in the Lizard episode better, but I have to admit that "Market Forces" had the best dialog of any Spidey cartoon ever. It was just like the classic Lee/Ditko era.

Montana as Shocker was a minor quibble, but still an awesome ep with lots of classic characters. Glad to see that these writers really get the classic Spidey.
 
I had actually missed this week's episode, but thanks to the Internet, and some PM's from anarchistguy, Sarcastic Fan, CaptainCanada, vinny2, I was able to catch it. I actually came on and looked Sunday night after work before checking the last two PM's, but I deeply appreciate the effort. I try to put effort into long posts and it is nice that I have folks who enjoy them.

"Market Forces" has garnered attention even before it aired because it marked the debut of Shocker, a B-List villain who is quite popular with fans now and could be bordering on A-List, if he ever got a major comic story or a show in SPIDER-MAN 4. He's shown up in all of the movie Spidey games, the second PS1 game, and even FRIEND OR FOE and ULTIMATE ALLIANCE. But he also has had a rich history in cartoons, too. In some ways he often has had strong episodes.

In 1982-1983, he showed up in the second season episode of SPIDER-MAN AND HIS AMAZING FRIENDS in the episode that detailed Spider-Man's origin, "ALONG CAME SPIDEY". While that show, along with many 80's cartoons, is nothing compared to stuff from later years, that episode was the shining jewel of the series. In that episode, Shocker escapes from prison to declare revenge on Spider-Man for capturing him (off camera, as Shocker had never showed up before or in the 1981 syndicated Spidey-show that Marvel produced to basically sell it to NBC). Back then, villain of the week was the norm. And while his design was crude and he had cheesy one-liners, Shocker ended up bringing the 80's Spidey to the verge of quitting by accidentally injuring Aunt May and landing her in the hospital. This got an emotional Peter to relay his origin to his Spider-Friends and wonder if he really did any good as a hero, as this time May was hurt even when he HAD acted responsibly. This episode has, arguably, the most exact translation of the origin story in my generation. Naturally, Spidey finds his spirits and the Spider-Friends prevail, and even May finds Spider-Man "not so scary" at the end. But for Spider-Friends, that was as deep as it got.

In the 90's show, Shocker got a pitch-perfect costume translation (and showed up in the first season, when the animation was still good), as well as a great voice job by Jim Cummings. Shocker was a hitman for the Kingpin who was the villain that ended up showing Peter how corrupted the symbiote costume had made him, and leading to Venom. He had a notable turn in the "Insidious Six" episodes, too. To many of us, even if we had many grievances with the 90's show, their treatment of Shocker was not one of 'em, and we wondered how this show could possibly top it.

Bluntly, it didn't. The 90's version is a better Shocker. But that really didn't matter to me. SS-M is doing a great job with everyone and everything else that matters to the franchise it deals with that it is hardly a deal-breaker when the villain registers only a B in comparison with a prior A-List appearance. I mean, hey, we got an A+ version of Vulture. How often does THAT happen?

The episode, as they all have been doing, carry in subplots from the prior ones, and that is essential for serial stories. I am happy to see another Marvel show embrace it. The Big Man is still ticked about Spider-Man escaping the clutches of the Enforcers in the pilot, and his goons liberate a hi-tech costume for Montana, the only member of the Enforcers to escape jail, to don in order to finish his contract. Right away, this was the gutsiest move the SS-M team has made so far. Rather than introduce Herman Schultz as a seperate goon, they merge him and Montana of the Enforcers. On the upside, this connects things and reduces the amount of "randomness" that some creators don't like about the early 60's comics. On the downside, we now have a Shocker with Texan slang and Southern twang, and while it isn't a big deal, it was awkward. It also seems odd that the other two Enforcers are still in jail when Flint Marko and his partner, who is named as "O'Hirn" (as in Alex O'Hirn, one of the aliases of the Rhino), seem to get out rather quickly. I mean in the 90's show, Kingpin and his criminal empire were used to connect villains together, so it makes sense to repeat what worked. The fact that this mobster is the Big Man and not Kingpin makes it more fresh, as the Kingpin has been overdone. The new design is pretty cool; I wonder if Shocker really needed it, but it works in motion. His energy blasts are green, and that seemed odd. Maybe to make it more distinct from Electro's blasts?

But what sells the show isn't the villains per say, but watching Peter Parker and his supporting cast and how being Spider-Man effects that. Hey, who knew this was Spidey 101, right? Peter is so exhausted after nights as Spidey that he flops onto bed in costume and has to duck under the sheets when May knocks to wake him. Stressing over bills that May hides behind a bowl, Peter is determined to cash in on his ability to take shots of his alter ego. However, his battle with the Lizard has strained his relationship with Gwen and Brock; Gwen is barely speaking to him, and Brock asks him to "back off" for a bit. Peter feels regret but doesn't mention that May is under money woes and that brings pressure, but I guess that wouldn't be in his nature. This episode, Peter keeps making arrangements to help Harry study for a calculus test, but Spider-affairs keep getting in the way.

May also lays in the groundwork for MJ, noting "Anna's niece with personality", which for most guys spells the kiss of death. The 90's show kind of stumbled with the "you hit the jackpot" moment, and I wonder if this show will get it right. Dunst could never pull off that kind of moment, either. It may be hard without the designs of Romita Sr. For the best look at what a Romita designed MJ would have looked like in a cartoon, there's always Firestar's Angelica design from Spider-Friends.

Peter heads to the Bugle to collect his paycheck, and ends up being smitten by Betty Brant, even as he is put off by Jonah's manic style. J.J. was also someone who the 90's show got right from temperment to acting (Ed Asner owned that role), and having 3 movies of J.J. acting like a bit of a schtick (albeit an amusing, memorable schtick) have made this Jonah act...well, more like the films, more exaggerated. But that has usually been how he is written in cartoons, or even many comics. Some have complained in the comics how he's basically been a one-note pony for ages. Given all that, J.J.'s just fine here, and I like how Cheek Galloway had the cajones to keep the "Hitler" mustache. Robbie Robertson is also introduced, and Peter seemed to know of his son, Randy, who attends Midtown High (Is that the jock who keeps hanging out with Flash? Dating Sally? I was just checking). Robbie naturally is friendlier and suggests Peter invest in a better camera.

Unfortunately, his first battle against Shocker (as well as with Marko & O'Hirn running interference) results in Spidey being trapped in a trash compacter that makes him smell for the rest of the episode. Gym class doesn't go better with everything coming to a head, misques with Gwen and Harry, and even Flash scoring fresh rips on the odor. It is this kind of drama with the cast that made Spider-Man what he is, the sort of thing that Avengers memberships and unmaskings destroyed. Because we came in when Spidey's career was young, we have watched these relationships with friends wither along with Peter and thus it feels more raw to the audience, too. Least it does to me. Spider-Man eventually triumphs over Shocker by using his wit and guile (unable to touch Shocker's vibrational suit, he gets the villain to collapse their abandoned building arena onto himself), but seemingly loses Harry's friendship in the process. Or at least if it continues, it won't be the same. To them, Peter is someone who cannot be counted on in the clutch, which often leads to a breakdown of relationships, and creates the strain that being Spider-Man is. Granted, it has the upsides, such as not only bring in bad-guys, but being able to offer cash to May for her bills (which she has a hard time accepting).

I also like how the cartoon shows Peter as a datin' man, not just spiritually linked to MJ forever like the comics. I liked that he hit on Betty and it isn't everyday you have an age difference thing in a cartoon.

The episode ends with what may be the storyline of the season. Norman Osborn, who has little respect for his son and lectures him on "cowboying up" (good pun on the Montana situation), and he is revealed as having dealt with Hammerhead and Big Man's mob to rub out his own business competitors. Osborn also probably invents some of the "super-tech" that is beginning to flod the area. Big Man suggests that the more "super-criminals" there are fighting Spider-Man, the less time Spidey has to web up his "normal" criminals who are out stealing the real money. Plus, it allows Osborn ways to test his gimmicks. All sides agree. The promo's promise Sandman next week and that looks great, especially since Sandman hasn't seen animation SINCE Spider-Friends in the 80's. Thank SPIDER-MAN 3 for getting him fresh in the audience's eyes.

Ned Lee is also introduced, as a few hours late to catch Spidey in action. The show's creators made him Asian to get the cast to be more diverse, and it isn't a big deal. Unlike Liz Allen, Ned got a more "Asian" last name (Liz is a Hispanic but her last name wasn't "Latin'd" up). Maybe it also could be a nod to Stan Lee.

Vulture and Lizard were still the best two rogues of the 4 episodes so far, and if Max Dillon could be introduced quickly, why not Schultz? But I respect the choices the show has made and am completely enjoying it. They really are building this nice Spider-verse that mingles the Lee/Ditko era with modern things and advances, and takes what worked in more recent stories, too. The supporting cast and the interactions between characters always mattered more in many ways than the actual bad guys; they're just the icing on the cake. The show's handling everything well. And the animation & storyboard quality is pretty good. They tried to make "Spidey dodges a blast" look interesting every time. The character models animate well, which is essential for a cartoon. They also get Spider-Man's banter right. At least every episode has one line that gets a chuckle or two from me, and I am a hard audience.

I hit 4 out of 5 on the poll above. This is Saturday morning to me right now. It makes me forget all of the sins that Marvel has done with their comics version of the character, at least for a little while. This show nails down the heart and spirit of the franchise, and after a decade, it is good that is back on the small screen.
 
Loved the episode.

''Natural Selection'' was slighthy better, but ''Market Forces'' rocks! Loved the Flint Marko/Alex O'Hirn ''couple''. Very funny Spider mocks, getting Montana really angry.

9/10.
 
I missed the show because of the frickin' NCAA Tournament!! The last episode was good, so i'm sure this one was just as good!
 
try checking youtube or dailymotion for the ep or just dl it.
 
Dread said:
I had actually missed this week's episode, but thanks to the Internet, and some PM's from anarchistguy, Sarcastic Fan, CaptainCanada, vinny2, I was able to catch it. I actually came on and looked Sunday night after work before checking the last two PM's, but I deeply appreciate the effort. I try to put effort into long posts and it is nice that I have folks who enjoy them.

"Market Forces" has garnered attention even before it aired because it marked the debut of Shocker, a B-List villain who is quite popular with fans now and could be bordering on A-List, if he ever got a major comic story or a show in SPIDER-MAN 4. He's shown up in all of the movie Spidey games, the second PS1 game, and even FRIEND OR FOE and ULTIMATE ALLIANCE. But he also has had a rich history in cartoons, too. In some ways he often has had strong episodes.

In 1982-1983, he showed up in the second season episode of SPIDER-MAN AND HIS AMAZING FRIENDS in the episode that detailed Spider-Man's origin, "ALONG CAME SPIDEY". While that show, along with many 80's cartoons, is nothing compared to stuff from later years, that episode was the shining jewel of the series. In that episode, Shocker escapes from prison to declare revenge on Spider-Man for capturing him (off camera, as Shocker had never showed up before or in the 1981 syndicated Spidey-show that Marvel produced to basically sell it to NBC). Back then, villain of the week was the norm. And while his design was crude and he had cheesy one-liners, Shocker ended up bringing the 80's Spidey to the verge of quitting by accidentally injuring Aunt May and landing her in the hospital. This got an emotional Peter to relay his origin to his Spider-Friends and wonder if he really did any good as a hero, as this time May was hurt even when he HAD acted responsibly. This episode has, arguably, the most exact translation of the origin story in my generation. Naturally, Spidey finds his spirits and the Spider-Friends prevail, and even May finds Spider-Man "not so scary" at the end. But for Spider-Friends, that was as deep as it got.

In the 90's show, Shocker got a pitch-perfect costume translation (and showed up in the first season, when the animation was still good), as well as a great voice job by Jim Cummings. Shocker was a hitman for the Kingpin who was the villain that ended up showing Peter how corrupted the symbiote costume had made him, and leading to Venom. He had a notable turn in the "Insidious Six" episodes, too. To many of us, even if we had many grievances with the 90's show, their treatment of Shocker was not one of 'em, and we wondered how this show could possibly top it.

Bluntly, it didn't. The 90's version is a better Shocker. But that really didn't matter to me. SS-M is doing a great job with everyone and everything else that matters to the franchise it deals with that it is hardly a deal-breaker when the villain registers only a B in comparison with a prior A-List appearance. I mean, hey, we got an A+ version of Vulture. How often does THAT happen?

The episode, as they all have been doing, carry in subplots from the prior ones, and that is essential for serial stories. I am happy to see another Marvel show embrace it. The Big Man is still ticked about Spider-Man escaping the clutches of the Enforcers in the pilot, and his goons liberate a hi-tech costume for Montana, the only member of the Enforcers to escape jail, to don in order to finish his contract. Right away, this was the gutsiest move the SS-M team has made so far. Rather than introduce Herman Schultz as a seperate goon, they merge him and Montana of the Enforcers. On the upside, this connects things and reduces the amount of "randomness" that some creators don't like about the early 60's comics. On the downside, we now have a Shocker with Texan slang and Southern twang, and while it isn't a big deal, it was awkward. It also seems odd that the other two Enforcers are still in jail when Flint Marko and his partner, who is named as "O'Hirn" (as in Alex O'Hirn, one of the aliases of the Rhino), seem to get out rather quickly. I mean in the 90's show, Kingpin and his criminal empire were used to connect villains together, so it makes sense to repeat what worked. The fact that this mobster is the Big Man and not Kingpin makes it more fresh, as the Kingpin has been overdone. The new design is pretty cool; I wonder if Shocker really needed it, but it works in motion. His energy blasts are green, and that seemed odd. Maybe to make it more distinct from Electro's blasts?

But what sells the show isn't the villains per say, but watching Peter Parker and his supporting cast and how being Spider-Man effects that. Hey, who knew this was Spidey 101, right? Peter is so exhausted after nights as Spidey that he flops onto bed in costume and has to duck under the sheets when May knocks to wake him. Stressing over bills that May hides behind a bowl, Peter is determined to cash in on his ability to take shots of his alter ego. However, his battle with the Lizard has strained his relationship with Gwen and Brock; Gwen is barely speaking to him, and Brock asks him to "back off" for a bit. Peter feels regret but doesn't mention that May is under money woes and that brings pressure, but I guess that wouldn't be in his nature. This episode, Peter keeps making arrangements to help Harry study for a calculus test, but Spider-affairs keep getting in the way.

May also lays in the groundwork for MJ, noting "Anna's niece with personality", which for most guys spells the kiss of death. The 90's show kind of stumbled with the "you hit the jackpot" moment, and I wonder if this show will get it right. Dunst could never pull off that kind of moment, either. It may be hard without the designs of Romita Sr. For the best look at what a Romita designed MJ would have looked like in a cartoon, there's always Firestar's Angelica design from Spider-Friends.

Peter heads to the Bugle to collect his paycheck, and ends up being smitten by Betty Brant, even as he is put off by Jonah's manic style. J.J. was also someone who the 90's show got right from temperment to acting (Ed Asner owned that role), and having 3 movies of J.J. acting like a bit of a schtick (albeit an amusing, memorable schtick) have made this Jonah act...well, more like the films, more exaggerated. But that has usually been how he is written in cartoons, or even many comics. Some have complained in the comics how he's basically been a one-note pony for ages. Given all that, J.J.'s just fine here, and I like how Cheek Galloway had the cajones to keep the "Hitler" mustache. Robbie Robertson is also introduced, and Peter seemed to know of his son, Randy, who attends Midtown High (Is that the jock who keeps hanging out with Flash? Dating Sally? I was just checking). Robbie naturally is friendlier and suggests Peter invest in a better camera.

Unfortunately, his first battle against Shocker (as well as with Marko & O'Hirn running interference) results in Spidey being trapped in a trash compacter that makes him smell for the rest of the episode. Gym class doesn't go better with everything coming to a head, misques with Gwen and Harry, and even Flash scoring fresh rips on the odor. It is this kind of drama with the cast that made Spider-Man what he is, the sort of thing that Avengers memberships and unmaskings destroyed. Because we came in when Spidey's career was young, we have watched these relationships with friends wither along with Peter and thus it feels more raw to the audience, too. Least it does to me. Spider-Man eventually triumphs over Shocker by using his wit and guile (unable to touch Shocker's vibrational suit, he gets the villain to collapse their abandoned building arena onto himself), but seemingly loses Harry's friendship in the process. Or at least if it continues, it won't be the same. To them, Peter is someone who cannot be counted on in the clutch, which often leads to a breakdown of relationships, and creates the strain that being Spider-Man is. Granted, it has the upsides, such as not only bring in bad-guys, but being able to offer cash to May for her bills (which she has a hard time accepting).

I also like how the cartoon shows Peter as a datin' man, not just spiritually linked to MJ forever like the comics. I liked that he hit on Betty and it isn't everyday you have an age difference thing in a cartoon.

The episode ends with what may be the storyline of the season. Norman Osborn, who has little respect for his son and lectures him on "cowboying up" (good pun on the Montana situation), and he is revealed as having dealt with Hammerhead and Big Man's mob to rub out his own business competitors. Osborn also probably invents some of the "super-tech" that is beginning to flod the area. Big Man suggests that the more "super-criminals" there are fighting Spider-Man, the less time Spidey has to web up his "normal" criminals who are out stealing the real money. Plus, it allows Osborn ways to test his gimmicks. All sides agree. The promo's promise Sandman next week and that looks great, especially since Sandman hasn't seen animation SINCE Spider-Friends in the 80's. Thank SPIDER-MAN 3 for getting him fresh in the audience's eyes.

Ned Lee is also introduced, as a few hours late to catch Spidey in action. The show's creators made him Asian to get the cast to be more diverse, and it isn't a big deal. Unlike Liz Allen, Ned got a more "Asian" last name (Liz is a Hispanic but her last name wasn't "Latin'd" up). Maybe it also could be a nod to Stan Lee.

Vulture and Lizard were still the best two rogues of the 4 episodes so far, and if Max Dillon could be introduced quickly, why not Schultz? But I respect the choices the show has made and am completely enjoying it. They really are building this nice Spider-verse that mingles the Lee/Ditko era with modern things and advances, and takes what worked in more recent stories, too. The supporting cast and the interactions between characters always mattered more in many ways than the actual bad guys; they're just the icing on the cake. The show's handling everything well. And the animation & storyboard quality is pretty good. They tried to make "Spidey dodges a blast" look interesting every time. The character models animate well, which is essential for a cartoon. They also get Spider-Man's banter right. At least every episode has one line that gets a chuckle or two from me, and I am a hard audience.

I hit 4 out of 5 on the poll above. This is Saturday morning to me right now. It makes me forget all of the sins that Marvel has done with their comics version of the character, at least for a little while. This show nails down the heart and spirit of the franchise, and after a decade, it is good that is back on the small screen.
Click to expand...
Awesome review! :up:
 
Only one mistake. Shocker wasn't in FRIEND OR FOE. :o
 
He wasn't in ALL the movie games either. But still, great review!
 
Having watched the episode again, I like it even more.
 
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