Daredevil Matt Murdock's Radar Sense

[Mike Murdock]

There was a discussion about Matt Murdock's radar sense in the general discussion thread, but I thought it was interesting enough to warrant its own thread. Basically, the question is how do you portray what Daredevil "sees" through his radar sense on screen? I used "sees" in quotes because I think everyone agrees that it's not sight and its misleading to call it sight. Any attempt to represent it visually would be an abstraction. My view is that this abstraction is a necessary evil. However, The Question has taken the opposite view. His two suggestions are to not show it at all (instead, just show Matt reacting to his surroundings, emphasizing his heightened sense of sound, etc.) or to show how Matt imagines the world (taking into account that he once could see and possibly cuing to the audience how his imagination would be an imperfect representation). I think these are good ideas, although I still argue it's ultimately not enough.

You can follow the discussion starting here, here, here, here, here, and here. As you can see, the conversation was starting to dominate, so I decided to start this thread.

If you want to read how it's been handled in the comics, a good place to start is The Other Murdock Papers, where someone has thought way too hard about this subject (I mean that in the best way possible. Her work is invaluable to a Daredevil fan).

I also want to post this. If you want to see something awesome, you can skip the rest of my post and just watch this. Daniel Kish is man who was blinded by cancer from early in life and has no visual memories. Early on, he taught himself to essentially echolocate. He can tell the size, shape, distance, etc. of objects by making a tongue click and listening to the response. In some areas, it's extremely precise, but it has its clear limitations. Daredevil's radar sense is not portrayed this way (in the sense of being an active system rather than a passive one), but it's a good starting point when thinking of his strengths and weaknesses.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6Wb0Yy5uSs

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ETA: I added links for the videos because I couldn't get the embed to work right.

 

[gohei_]

This is an interesting topic and I'm not really sure on what I want, but they should remember as was said in the main thread that he does has all his other senses at his disposal and not make everything about the radar.

 

[Mike Murdock]

Yeah, I agree with that. Someone who has a better memory of the movie can correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't they abandon it entirely (with the exception of the water-sonar thing at the end)? I think that's too extreme, but I do think Daredevil's radar sense should be his weakest sense. If anything, I think it's more useful to show in order to demonstrate his limitations rather than his abilities.

I just ran across this interview with Frank Miller that I thought was interesting.

Here's his view on the Radar Sense:

MILLER: The way I see it, he’s aware of the general shape of things around him and how far away he is from other things. Particularly with people, he’s got a million ways of telling where they are: His hearing alone tells him not only where someone is, but how fast their heart is beating, how fast they’re breathing – which is a good indication of their emotional state.

 

[The Question]

My argument in favor of the dreamscape radar: It's less likely to confuse the audience into thinking that it's what he's literally seeing, it comes out of a place of character instead of simply being a visual narrative device, it has a lot of potential for revealing a lot about what Matt thinks about the people and things around him, it has the potential for some thrilling and engaging misdirects when Matt mistakes someone or something for someone else, and it can, if done well, generate a lot more pathos for the character when we see the limitations of his imagined reality compared to the real world.

 

[Mike Murdock]

I'll add to that (even if I don't agree with the idea) that there's also some good established filming techniques to show when somebody is imagining or dreaming something, which can be used effectively as well.

Of course, different techniques can be used for different situations depending on need. It doesn't have to be an either-or thing. Also, while I'm sure his senses will take a backseat to the story no matter what, I wouldn't mind a "time out" so to speak just to emphasize the things Matt deems important in figuring out what's going on. I could easily see a CSI-type use of CGI that highlights the sound of a beating heart or could even show the smell of something if it's important.

 

[The Question]

I'll add to that (even if I don't agree with the idea) that there's also some good established filming techniques to show when somebody is imagining or dreaming something, which can be used effectively as well.

I'd amp up the brightness of the color palette like crazy. As in, Pushing Daisies level of brightness. I have this idea in my head that after all these years, the colors that Matt would remember best would be the brightest and most vibrant ones, and so that would color (heh) his imagined view of his surroundings. Also having the colors only randomly match the actual color scheme of the room would help, especially if the color scheme in his head is simpler.

Also, another argument in favor of the dreamscape: I now have it stuck in my head the idea that Matt would visualize Fisk in a manner similar to the Stag-Man in Hannibal, and that just seems really cool to me.

Of course, different techniques can be used for different situations depending on need. It doesn't have to be an either-or thing. Also, while I'm sure his senses will take a backseat to the story no matter what, I wouldn't mind a "time out" so to speak just to emphasize the things Matt deems important in figuring out what's going on. I could easily see a CSI-type use of CGI that highlights the sound of a beating heart or could even show the smell of something if it's important.

Yeah, definitely. Still, I'm not sure when you'd need the traditional radar scape more than any other options.

 

[The Question]

Also, one more thing about my Dreamscape idea: I think that's more or less exactly what we would have gotten if David Slade had ended up directing that Daredevil film he was in talks for, as Slade uses a very similar technique for Will Graham's investigating/profiling in Hannibal.

 

[the gael]

I don't know if the radar sense is the weakest sense. It's possible, but it is clearly different from the vision sense. Yes, it works with sound instead of light. It's clearly not as precise as the vision sense. Matt probably see only crude shapes (the movie version was probably to precise on the shapes). He probably can't recognize anyone with it (his smell and sound senses are probably more important for that). But, on the other hand, he can "see" someone behind him.

I would love to see it depicted with only white shades on a black background. Only shades that give you the size, shape and distance, but not the detail of the face or the object (But, to prove that his radar is not vision, the radar resolution can be improved and / or parasited during a big sound (like during explosions, etc))

For a fight were Matt is assaulted from behind and "feel" his enemy, why don't use the "real", "physical" Matt incrusted in this world of shapes. Then you can see him "react" to a shape behind him.

You can mix it with sounds (a mix of heart beat, saturated conversations and other sounds, with a focus on what sound Matt is focusing on) to have a representation of how he percieve the world around him)

Like said in the posts before, Matt is a sensory laboratory.

As for the other senses, thay are much easier to do. a focus on the nose and on "molecules" / "gazes" when he uses his sense of smell, and a focus on his fingers when he uses his sense of touch for "reading", etc...

 

[SlamAdams]

The radar sense in the first movie was one of the few things I liked about it. Or the way the comics have taken to showing it in a similar way. Sonic waves in the negative space with silhouette's "pinging" (i guess). The EKG effect when using his innate lie detection.

 

[Mike Murdock]

Did Daredevil have a radar sense in the movie? I don't recall it.

 

[The Question]

It sort of did. The term "radar sense" was used, but the movie went with the interpretation that the radar sense is not a separate sense, but the result of all of his super senses working together to give him an idea of his surroundings.

I kind of like that idea better, honestly. It inches away from his powers compensating for his blindness to the point of him effectively not being blind.

 

[SlamAdams]

Did Daredevil have a radar sense in the movie? I don't recall it.

It is probably better described as sonar. When he went into the subway for instance he clanged his baton against a railing and the platform was mapped out for him with the soundwaves. Visually speaking I think it would probably work out the same.

 

[Mike Murdock]

OK.

I remembered the thing at the end with the sprinkler and the raindrops, but I didn't remember anything earlier. Ironically, rain was always something that screwed up Daredevil's radar sense in the comics.

 

[VulcanVader]

I wonder how they will portray it and make it different from the one in the Affleck movie.

 

[marcvader]

I wonder how they will portray it and make it different from the one in the Affleck movie.

That's the only thing I liked about the Daredevil flick.

 

[VulcanVader]

That's the only thing I liked about the Daredevil flick.

Yeah, it will be hard to improve that.

 

[The Question]

OK.

I remembered the thing at the end with the sprinkler and the raindrops, but I didn't remember anything earlier. Ironically, rain was always something that screwed up Daredevil's radar sense in the comics.

The filmmakers said that they did some research and a lot of blind people said that they have an easier time navigating when it is raining because of the way the sound bounces off of things, so they added that for authenticity. I'm okay with that kind of change.

 

[Mike Murdock]

I'm OK with it too for similar reasons, but it's a pretty consistent thing in the comics. Of course, it might go to the nature of the radar sense. If its a sonar, it certainly makes sense. If its some kind of pinging wave (referred to once as "paranormal waves"), rain might mess it up. Who knows.

 

[Lilbaz]

If we do see his training with Stick where he attunes his senses to superhuman levels. They wont need to show any radar sense. As we will know that he can "see" through his other senses. We don't need to look through the eyes of Cap or Thor we just need to see them kick arse. Same with DD.

If there is someone hiding they can amplify the beat of his heart or breathing in order for us to realise that he can sense them. A close up of his ear and then to the hiding place will show the audience that he knows they are there. Will keep it more grounded and realistic.

 

[SlamAdams]

Its a visual medium. Its not crazy to think they would visualize the radar sense as the comics have. And I don't think doing so would make it any less grounded or realistic.

 

[Lilbaz]

Its a visual medium. Its not crazy to think they would visualize the radar sense as the comics have. And I don't think doing so would make it any less grounded or realistic.

It's not crazy. I just think they don't need to do it and could spend the money elsewhere.

 

[The Question]

Its a visual medium. Its not crazy to think they would visualize the radar sense as the comics have. And I don't think doing so would make it any less grounded or realistic.

For me, it has nothing to do with grounding or realism. I just don't think that the way the comics traditionally visualize the radar sense is the most effective approach, and that it's an approach that can send mixed signals about how Matt experiences the world.

Also, television isn't only a visual medium. It's also an auditory medium. Unlike comics, it has the ability to use sound to denote how Matt Murdock perceives the world instead of image.

 

[SlamAdams]

It's not crazy. I just think they don't need to do it and could spend the money elsewhere.

I don't think money is an issue

 

[SlamAdams]

For me, it has nothing to do with grounding or realism. I just don't think that the way the comics traditionally visualize the radar sense is the most effective approach, and that it's an approach that can send mixed signals about how Matt experiences the world.

How does it send mixed signals?

Also, television isn't only a visual medium. It's also an auditory medium. Unlike comics, it has the ability to use sound to denote how Matt Murdock perceives the world instead of image.

Of course, but I still think they should do something visually.

 

[The Question]

How does it send mixed signals?

I think it can imply to some people that it's what Daredevil is literally seeing, which is obviously not the case. And I think it's counter productive to use images to convey how a blind person navigates the world. You're not really getting a feel for his POV if you're doing it with images.

Of course, but I still think they should do something visually.

If you have to do something visually, I think the imagination-scape is a better call than the comics standard.