NFL Kneeling

[godisawesome]

I know this argument has been talked about on at least 3 threads, but I feel the discussion is worth maybe a general focus. If I'm wrong and this gets absorbed, I apologize.

I just got done watching this video of Skip Bayles and Shannon Sharpe about the Packers game last night: [YT]https://youtu.be/a8otVnIZoXI[/YT].

At the risk of exposing my ignorance and flaws, I do think an important talking point arises from this video: Is taking a knee during the national anthem a strategically effective form of protest in regards to the inequities of innocent African Americans being killed disproportionately by the police? Because from the standpoint of getting people to notice, getting the message out, and causing people to have a reaction, it's a success. People had to acknowledge Kaepernick's actions. But did they also go forward and address the issue Kaepernick raised?

Sharpe expresses, both emotionally and still fairly eloquently, that he perceives the refusal to address the issue being protested as prove that the majority of the Packers' fans "don't give a damn." His argument is sound, logical, and at least accurate for, at the least, some people. But I don't think Bayless is necessarily wrong in saying that the method of protest has, in effect, shot the messenger before he can deliver the message. Like, if I can be honest with you guys and gals, I've been conflicted on it. When it first started, my immediate reaction was more negative than Bayless's "getting queasy." I felt Kaepernick had a valid point to make, but I also felt that he was, in a highly visible way, showing some disrespect towards the *wrong* people in regards to the issue.

Since then, I've come around on it; initially, this was because I didn't believe Kaepernick's actions in anyway justified his de-facto blacklisting from the NFL, and since he'd effectively martyered his career on it and inspired others to keep it up, it gained my respect. *He* gained my respect. Because I felt he put his money where his mouth was, and because I saw the issue still was not being addressed, and the willingness to continue his protests by other players now made that a mark of courage and conviction. Now, I still felt the delivery system was flawed, but not wrong, if that makes sense.

The recent explosion about the protest, thanks to the misconduct of the President, has made this now national news. And I feel that while we're seeing both the ugliest side of the "No Kneeing!" standpoint, we are also witnessing a comparatively benign and sincere refusal to ever "disrespect" the sacrifice men and women have made for the flag; that people who might actually be open to discussing police training and procedural reform just *cannot* disassociate that idea from their visceral reaction to seeing a pseudo-sacred object disrespected. That, in some ways, the avenue for highlighting the issue runs too near Donald Trump's Off The Rails Express to avoid being hijacked by a semi-skilled demagogue.

I feel that shouldn't be the case. The protest is justified, and the protest is legal, the protest isn't interfering in my enjoyment of the game or in the play at all, so the protest is... Justified.

But it's aggravating how easy it is to distract us from a very serious discussion, one that has blood on it already (in the form of dead innocent men, slain unjustly by either a failed system or by ignorance or racism), will have much less blood on it in correcting the problem (because the simple law of human error and averages says that some good police officer would probably die due to less-aggression-based training), simply because the mode of protest brings in the flag, which *does* in some ways stand for the blood of the Patriots spilt for the freedoms we do enjoy.

 

[OcStat]

I don't have a horse in the race as far as the NFL is concerned. I think it's great that the players as individuals have their voice. Everybody has their personal social media accounts, all of these players, Kaepernick, could have (and probably did) post their thoughts and opinions to them. But only their followers would see it, maybe they would get shared, reposted, go viral. Before the game millions of people are tuned in, it's maximum exposure.

Of course, (most?) people watching the game just to kick back, or have some brews, or watch their team...whatever, could care less about one players personal opinion.

But I find it very interesting and important that the NYT reported the other day, several of the hashtags, on either side of the argument, were (if I am remembering the article correctly) started or perhaps helped spread by Russian linked accounts on twitter.

A person makes the decision to raise awareness to a divisive issue, and a foreign entity sees a perfect opportunity to drive a wedge into that discourse.

 

[hellified]

What people forget is that a protest or demonstration is SUPPOSE to be disruptive. That's its function. To make people stop and look. To force people to give consideration. Its not easy, its not simple and its never perceived as RESPECTFUL no matter how many people say it can be done respectfully... if that were the case then none of the civil rights marchers would have been beaten, jailed or murdered for just exercising their free speech.
In fact kneeling probably IS the most respectful least disruptive (to the game itself) form of protest I've ever seen and still people complain its not respectful enough or nondisruptive enough..

Stop talking about how the flag and symbol is being disrespected by kneeling when the president of the united states had ZERO to say about nazis and white supremacists.

You wanna know whats REALLY disrespectful to the flag?

WAVING A SWASTIKA OR CONFEDERATE FLAG NEXT TO IT!! DOING A NAZI SALUTE IN ITS PRESENCE!! TRUE HISTORICAL DOCUMENTED ENEMIES OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. THAT'S A SLAP IN THE FACE TO VETS AND FIRST RESPONDERS!

But it took the so called president 48 hours to condemn those who did that and thats AFTER a backlash so it was more about damage control than anything sincere.

Also this same person said there were good people among the kkk and nazis yet called athletes who exercise their free speech SOBs. And its not lost on me that he made that speech in Alabama a state that historically has been a hotbed of racial strife and issues.

If anyone thinks taking a knee is disruptive and disrespectful...here's a fact, when Kaepernick first started it he was SITTING DOWN then a VET told him that if he had to do it he should at least kneel to SHOW RESPECT FOR THE VETS AND PEOPLE WHO DIED IN DEFENSE OF THE COUNTRY. The whole take a knee thing was a VET'S SUGGESTION! So the idea that its disrespectful to vets is BS.

one more thing...here's an excerpt from an athletes biography:

Some things counterbalanced this ugliness. Black people supported me with total loyalty. They supported me morally: they came to sit in a hostile audience in unprecedented numbers to make the turnstiles hum as they never had before at ballparks all over the nation. Money is America’s God, and business people can dig black power if it coincides with green power, so these fans were important to the success of Mr. Rickey’s “Noble Experiment.” Some of the Dodgers who swore they would never play with a black man had a change of mind when they realized I was a good ballplayer who could be helpful in their earning a few thousand more dollars in World Series money. They hadn’t changed because they liked me any better, they had changed because I could help fill their wallets. Today, as I look back on that opening game of my first world series, I must tell you that it was Mr. Rickey’s drama and that I was only a principal actor.

As I write this twenty years later, I cannot stand and sing the anthem. I cannot salute the flag; I know that I am a black man in a white world. In 1972, in 1947, at my birth in 1919, I know that I never had it made.

Jackie Robinson

 

[random_havoc]

One main thought from me:

This isn't actually a free speech issue, because it's happening while they're at work. At work your boss is fully able to tell you not to make political statements. Now, I'm glad that the owners/managers are letting them, but if they didn't it would be their right in the same way a McDonalds wouldn't have to let a worker wear a pro-choice t-shirt while they work.

As for the Republicans who think this shouldn't be allowed, I'd like to point them back to when many high ranking republicans publicly praised the woman who wouldn't allow gay marriage licenses to be approved just a couple years ago. This football protest at least doesn't interfere with anyone else, unlike what she did. Hypocrisy.

 

[mclay18]

Also, conservatives purposely ignore that the American flag is a symbol for our Constitution, but it is NOT part of it. Veterans and those who have passed on have fought for our Constitutional rights and freedoms. Part of that freedom is the First Amendment right to peaceably assemble and protest. Furthermore, the kneeling players have not desecrated the flag in any way.

So when I see a few of my conservative family members add the "I Stand border" to their FB profile photos, I roll my eyes. I don't mind standing for the national anthem, but I have every right to sit or turn my back if I want to. Forcing me to stand says otherwise.

 

[Prison Mike]

Yeah I don't think kneeling during the national anthem is disrespectful to the American flag. You know what's disrespectful to the American flag? Having the Confederate flag next to it. The same people who have Confederate flags at home are the ones crying about the NFL protests.

 

[mclay18]

And another thing that grates on me is that conservatives say that "you shouldn't be political at work" and "that these players should be grateful."

Really? How... hypocritical.

 

[hitmanyr2k]

I come from a military family where my father served in the Marine Corps for 28 years and retired near Camp Lejeune, NC. I spoke with him earlier this week about this very subject and it was a great discussion. As a black military man he sees both sides. Yes, he will always stand for the national anthem but at the same time he supports how these guys are peacefully protesting and more importantly what they're protesting because he's seen and lived the very thing they're protesting about, even as a United States Marine. Their right to do this is what he served for and he doesn't take offense because without protest (and he saw 10x more harsh in his time) he wouldn't be where he is and I wouldn't be where I am.

 

[mclay18]

It's important that more people understand both sides of the issue, rather than a knee-jerk reaction thanks to conservative media brainwashing.

 

[DJ_KiDDvIcIOUs]

Green Beret and NFL player Nate Boyer confirmed he convinced the quarterback to "take a knee," rather than sit, during the national anthem.

 

[SV Fan]

The real question is who the hell watches the anthem before a game, that's the time I usually go to the washroom or grab a bite before the game.

 

[LaughterLives]

It's a hysterical joke to me.
The issue being protested isn't a joke and indeed very real but how people react and take this protest so personally without fully understanding why its happening and without realizing how hypocritical and arrogant they're being is hilarious.
I mean, watching the news would almost make you think there was another terrorist attack or something and its the total opposite hahaha!

 

[Hotwire]

It's a hysterical joke to me.
The issue being protested isn't a joke and indeed very real but how people react and take this protest so personally without fully understanding why its happening and without realizing how hypocritical and arrogant they're being is hilarious.
I mean, watching the news would almost make you think there was another terrorist attack or something and its the total opposite hahaha!

I actually had to argue with my cousin that i, a former soldier, was not being disrespected or offended by these protests. She kept insisting that they were disrespecting me. I eventually gave up.

 

[LaughterLives]

I actually had to argue with my cousin that i, a former soldier, was not being disrespected or offended by these protests. She kept insisting that they were disrespecting me. I eventually gave up.

hahahaha! And no disrespect to you or your cousin but I would've loved to see that argument and hear her explain in what way you were being disrespected haha!

It makes me proud that you don't see it that way.

 

[Thundercrack85]

I don't really get why the national anthem needs to be played at sports games. I also don't see why we associate it and the flag exclusively with the military.

I also think that the kneeling is rather pointless.

 

[UltimatePyro9]

I wonder how many Americans who watch sports on TV actually stand during the national anthem.

 

[Marvolo]

It's a hysterical joke to me.
The issue being protested isn't a joke and indeed very real but how people react and take this protest so personally without fully understanding why its happening and without realizing how hypocritical and arrogant they're being is hilarious.
I mean, watching the news would almost make you think there was another terrorist attack or something and its the total opposite hahaha!

I actually had to argue with my cousin that i, a former soldier, was not being disrespected or offended by these protests. She kept insisting that they were disrespecting me. I eventually gave up.

My father was a marine and disrespecting the flag is a major no no for him. He is furious with the players and teams that are doing this, and thinks they are disrespecting the flag. He doesn't care why they are protesting. I just smh and don't try to argue with him about it. I've argued before with him about the flag and it's one thing he won't bend on at all.

 

[mclay18]

It's the same way that me and my younger brother, a relatively new NRA member, argue about gun control. He refuses to even acknowledge the proposed background checks form.

I just give up. He's too stubborn.

 

[SV Fan]

I don't really get why the national anthem needs to be played at sports games.

In all honesty unless it's a national sports team(say like the world cup of soccer) I don't see why we play an anthem before a game between Atlanta and Chicago(or pick any 2 cities playing eachother)

 

[Marvolo]

In all honesty unless it's a national sports team(say like the world cup of soccer) I don't see why we play an anthem before a game between Atlanta and Chicago(or pick any 2 cities playing eachother)

Or why we need to play it before minor league sports games or school games.

And most Americans disrespect their country, it's government,and it's people every single day, but they draw the line at disrespecting a piece of cloth that's only a symbol. It's weird and seems like a conditioned reflex and not actual voluntary thoughtful respect. People don't even think about it. They hear the anthem and get all solemn. Like a bunch of Pavlov's dogs.

 

[hellified]

In all honesty unless it's a national sports team(say like the world cup of soccer) I don't see why we play an anthem before a game between Atlanta and Chicago(or pick any 2 cities playing eachother)

Or why we need to play it before minor league sports games or school games.

And most Americans disrespect their country, it's government,and it's people every single day, but they draw the line at disrespecting a piece of cloth that's only a symbol. It's weird and seems like a conditioned reflex and not actual voluntary thoughtful respect. People don't even think about it. They hear the anthem and get all solemn. Like a bunch of Pavlov's dogs.

Youre right its more fitting at things like the olympics which makes Tommie Smith and John Carlos' statement all the more impactful

 

[Powerman34]

And another thing that grates on me is that conservatives say that "you shouldn't be political at work" and "that these players should be grateful."

Really? How... hypocritical.

Word? I'm a law enforcement officer and in my rule book I cannot endorse political candidates on duty or having signs in my yard either. If I do I could get suspended or fired. The NFL own rules say that they have to stand at attention when the National anthem is played or they would be fined and or suspended. That's their rule but Goddell chose not to enforce it. Talk about hypothetical

 

[Lighthouse]

Word? I'm a law enforcement officer and in my rule book I cannot endorse political candidates on duty or having signs in my yard either. If I do I could get suspended or fired. The NFL own rules say that they have to stand at attention when the National anthem is played or they would be fined and or suspended. That's their rule but Goddell chose not to enforce it. Talk about hypothetical

 

[DJ_KiDDvIcIOUs]

What's hilarious is you can read his other posts in various threads this morning and tell he's just some punk wannabe spouting off BS on the internet. Now he's a cop, lived through Katrina which somehow makes Maria and PR no big deal. He's the cop Bad Cop was based on with Nicolas Cage apparently.

 

[Powerman34]

Hypocritical