Passover.

[The Battousai]

I guess it's not that far-fetched that people would celebrate the death of innocents as long as they weren't of the same race

 

[SheldonLevene]

I guess it's not that far-fetched that people would celebrate the death of innocents as long as they weren't of the same race

I see what you're going for here, but the holiday as I understand it (I'm not jewish) is less about the death of the first born Egyptians, and more about the fact that God spared the Jews and delivered them from slavery.

 

[The Battousai]

It doesn't make it okay.

It's also not a fact, so I'm a bit confused by your wording.

 

[Majic Walrus]

Happy Passover, to my Jewish brothers and sisters.

Chag Kosher V'Sameach

It took me 5 minutes to determine that what you said wasn't some bastardized form of Klingon.

 

[Spider-Who?]

It doesn't make it okay.

It's also not a fact, so I'm a bit confused by your wording.

...what, so you're saying that its also wrong for the US to celebrate its indepence on july 4th, because 1000's of british were killed in the war?

 

[squeekness]

Happy Passover to all you wonderful Jews out there. While I am not a Jew we share the love of the same God and Maker and so there is plenty of love to go around. May your holiday be bright and merry! :heart:

 

[The Battousai]

...what, so you're saying that its also wrong for the US to celebrate its indepence on july 4th, because 1000's of british were killed in the war?

That day was when the Declaration of Independence was signed.

 

[Kelly]

...what, so you're saying that its also wrong for the US to celebrate its indepence on july 4th, because 1000's of british were killed in the war?

That is when we "declared" independence....the war came afterwards.

 

[Backdrifter]

Pesach Shalom!


(I don't even know if that is correct...but I'm giving it a shot!)

 

[Kelly]

You got close....

 

[Backdrifter]

i know Shabat Shalom is correct. so i figured that was too...

 

[Spider-Who?]

That day was when the Declaration of Independence was signed.

no ****ing duh.

the signing of the declaration of independence and the following war to uphold the document and all that it signifies goes hand in hand.

way to try and duck out of that.

 

[The Battousai]

no ****ing duh.

the signing of the declaration of independence and the following war to uphold the document and all that it signifies goes hand in hand.

way to try and duck out of that.

You can't compare Passover to a WAR fought by a great deal of WILLING participants that claimed lives on BOTH sides - not to mention the fact that the celebration on the 4th of July isn't contingent on the belief in a deity being responsible for the events' conclusion.

 

[Timstuff]

"...endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights..."

 

[The Battousai]

"...endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights..."

The majority of colonists were religious - of course the Founding Fathers would use the language of the people

The main architects of the Declaration and subsequent government documents such as the Constitution were mostly Deist - that is, they had no denominational religion (if any at all).



Some interesting quotes:


I have examined all the known superstitions of the Word, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike, founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the world ...

The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind ... to filch wealth and power to themselves. [They], in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ.

The Christian god can easily be pictured as virtually the same god as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes; fools and hypocrites. To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical.

For here we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor to tolerate error so long as reason is free to combat it.

Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.

Thomas Jefferson

Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination.

-Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom

I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Francis Hopkinson, March 13, 1789

Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814

Priests...dread the advance of science as witches do the approach of daylight and scowl on the fatal harbinger announcing the subversions of the duperies on which they live.

-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Correa de Serra, April 11, 1820

It is between fifty and sixty years since I read it [the Apocalypse], and I then considered it merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy nor capable of explanation than the incoherences of our own nightly dreams.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to General Alexander Smyth, Jan. 17, 1825


Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon than the Word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind.

I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church.

Accustom a people to believe that priests and clergy can forgive sins ... and you will have sins in abundance. I would not dare to dishonor my Creator's name by [attaching] it to this filthy book [the Bible].

Thomas Paine


There is nothing which can better deserve our patronage than the promotion of science and literature. Knowledge is in every country the surest basis of public happiness.

George Washington, address to Congress, 8 January, 1790

Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause.
George Washington, letter to Sir Edward Newenham, June 22, 1792


Lighthouses are more helpful than churches.

Benjamin Franklin

 

[bored]

It doesn't make it okay.

It's also not a fact, so I'm a bit confused by your wording.

Actually, it is a fact that we celebrate liberation from Egypt, and not the 10th plague. Since you're clearly unfamiliar with the parts of the holiday which didn't make it into any movies, I'll go ahead and inform you that at every part of the Seder in which we mention the deaths of Egyptians (both at the 10th plague and when the Red Sea came back together and drowned their soldiers), it is stressed that God did not want us to celebrate the suffering of any of his children, going as far as to reprimand angels who openly celebrated the latter of those events.

Come off your high-horse and learn a few things before you criticize, m'kay?

 

[Kelly]

Actually, it is a fact that we celebrate liberation from Egypt, and not the 10th plague. Since you're clearly unfamiliar with the parts of the holiday which didn't make it into any movies, I'll go ahead and inform you that at every part of the Seder in which we mention the deaths of Egyptians (both at the 10th plague and when the Red Sea came back together and drowned their soldiers), it is stressed that God did not want us to celebrate the suffering of any of his children, going as far as to reprimand angels who openly celebrated the latter of those events.

Come off your high-horse and learn a few things before you criticize, m'kay?

No need for the sarcasm, if you can't reply to posts in a respectful manner in this thread, move on to another thread.

 

[The Battousai]

Actually, it is a fact that we celebrate liberation from Egypt, and not the 10th plague.

It is not factual event if it has no evidence of ever occuring.

Since you're clearly unfamiliar with the parts of the holiday which didn't make it into any movies, I'll go ahead and inform you that at every part of the Seder in which we mention the deaths of Egyptians (both at the 10th plague and when the Red Sea came back together and drowned their soldiers), it is stressed that God did not want us to celebrate the suffering of any of his children, going as far as to reprimand angels who openly celebrated the latter of those events.

Come off your high-horse and learn a few things before you criticize, m'kay?

How is this still a good thing? Just because he wasn't enjoying killing people, doesn't mean it's now fine and dandy.

If God is capable of doing anything, then - logically - he could have avoided killing completely.

 

[Shemtov]

If God is capable of doing anything, then - logically - he could have avoided killing completely.

Phaoroh had free choice and the only way to convince him to let the Jews free was the death of the firstborn.

Actually, it is a fact that we celebrate liberation from Egypt, and not the 10th plague. Since you're clearly unfamiliar with the parts of the holiday which didn't make it into any movies, I'll go ahead and inform you that at every part of the Seder in which we mention the deaths of Egyptians (both at the 10th plague and when the Red Sea came back together and drowned their soldiers), it is stressed that God did not want us to celebrate the suffering of any of his children, going as far as to reprimand angels who openly celebrated the latter of those events.

and we spill wine every time we mention a plague to show our joy is not complete Because people died.
AND on the seventh and Eighth days of passover, when the splitting of the sea happened, we shorten the Halel (songs of praise) to show we don't celebrate an enimies downfall.

 

[The Battousai]

Phaoroh had free choice and the only way to convince him to let the Jews free was the death of the firstborn.

Then, clearly, your God is not omniscient (even though He's supposed to be). But this is not the only example of this in the OT, so it's not exactly a breaking story.

 

[Timstuff]

Pharaoh apparently didn't think the first 11 plagues were bad enough to convince him, so it was his fault, not God's. God does not alter people's free will.

 

[bored]

Then, clearly, your God is not omniscient (even though He's supposed to be). But this is not the only example of this in the OT, so it's not exactly a breaking story.

The point is that "our" God (supposed to be the same one for all three monotheistic religions) acts by posing challenges to mortals. No mention of ever just waving a hand and saying "presto!" to make things happen.

 

[Kelly]

Ok, guys.....all of the discussion here can now be taken over to the religion discussion thread.

I hope everyone has enjoyed these religious holidays and have had some good time with their families.

Thread closed....

 

[Kelly]

Well guys, the discussion has moved to something that can be discussed in the Religion discussion thread.

I hope everyone has/is enjoying this time of the year, and have had some good time with their families.

Thread closed....