Superman Returns Re: The Offical Jason Appreciation Thread

[Superman79]

Because he can. lol

True, but just because he can doesn't mean he should

 

[MoreCowbell]

NOOOO!!!

Why Singer??? Why did you ahve to do this too us?!?!?!

Do this to you, I love the storyline.

In 20 years, this will be part of the mythos.

 

[Fatboy Roberts]

I'll repost this again, because it really did even me out when it comes to this idea. Because I was having a hard time trying to wrap my mind around this, until I realized--I'd already wrapped my mind around it. TWICE.

Superman: Secret Identity by Kurt Busiek and Stuart Immonen
Son of Superman: By Howard Chaykin and David Tischman

And while I was reading those books, it didn't even occur to me ONCE to be offended or worried about the concept of Superman siring a child. Because it was folded into the story so organically, and ended up paying off SO WELL that both books ended up bringing a level of emotion not usually reached in Comic Books.

Sure, those are Elseworld tales, but guess what--so are the movies. And so is anything fictional, it's all an Elseworld tale because none of it actually happened. It's all stories--and if you can grab onto Busiek's work so easily and be taken there, you can do it with Singers provided Singer hits the right buttons in the right order at the right time.

 

[The Caped Knight]

Do this to you, I love the storyline.

In 20 years, this will be part of the mythos.

It's about time Lois & Sups become parents .

 

[NateGray]

I'll repost this again, because it really did even me out when it comes to this idea. Because I was having a hard time trying to wrap my mind around this, until I realized--I'd already wrapped my mind around it. TWICE.

Superman: Secret Identity by Kurt Busiek and Stuart Immonen
Son of Superman: By Howard Chaykin and David Tischman

And while I was reading those books, it didn't even occur to me ONCE to be offended or worried about the concept of Superman siring a child. Because it was folded into the story so organically, and ended up paying off SO WELL that both books ended up bringing a level of emotion not usually reached in Comic Books.

Sure, those are Elseworld tales, but guess what--so are the movies. And so is anything fictional, it's all an Elseworld tale because none of it actually happened. It's all stories--and if you can grab onto Busiek's work so easily and be taken there, you can do it with Singers provided Singer hits the right buttons in the right order at the right time.

But thats the problem yes it could have been done like the elseworld story which explained him having the kid.
Singer is not explaining anything and as I have said in another post people ripped those unexplained parts in X3 to pieces but somehow his not explaining things is just ok even by people who ripped X3 for those same lack of Explanation's....

 

[NateGray]

It's about time Lois & Sups become parents .

And you know I could be ok with them being parents if it was explained better and if the actor and actress palying superman and Lois looked old enough to be parents of a 5 year old without having had to have had sex in high school.
I think they look ok for the parts don't get me wrong but well they just look to young to be parents of a 5 year old at least IMO anyways.

 

[MoreCowbell]

And you know I could be ok with them being parents if it was explained better and if the actor and actress palying superman and Lois looked old enough to be parents of a 5 year old without having had to have had sex in high school.
I think they look ok for the parts don't get me wrong but well they just look to young to be parents of a 5 year old at least IMO anyways.

They're young because they're going to grow into there roles. I don't want two 30 year olds being 40 by the time this trilogy is over.

 

[NateGray]

They're young because they're going to grow into there roles. I don't want two 30 year olds being 40 by the time this trilogy is over.

Yes but you are ok with two people who can barley pass for 25 being parents to a 5 year old?
I understand why they went with younger actor and actrress for the future films but that doesn't make them having a 5 year old any easier to swallow as they are pretty young looking at this time.

 

[Fatboy Roberts]

Singer is not explaining anything and as I have said in another post people ripped those unexplained parts in X3 to pieces but somehow his not explaining things is just ok even by people who ripped X3 for those same lack of Explanation's

That doesn't make any sense.

Look, you haven't seen the movie. I haven't either. The people who HAVE seen the movie (professional critics, for the most part, who don't really harbor silly fanboy grudges based on comic brand loyalty) don't seem to have a problem with how that plot is executed. That MEANS something, to me at least. It means the explanation either comes through without words, or it isn't needed in the story in order to feel the impact of what's happening.

Some of the best moments in film (and I'm not saying this IS going to be one of them, I'll have to see for myself) go by rather lacking exposition to tell you why it's happening, or how it came about. The viewer tends to fill in the blanks on their own with their own experiences and memories, and that ends up ADDING to the emotion of it all. It looks like so far, that's the tack Singer is taking with the employment of this plot point, and it looks to be working for people.

This isn't an X3 thing. People *****ed at that because the execution was lacking for them, not because there was no explanation. if it was executed well, people wouldn't have stopped to look around and go "Wait, what? Huh?" Apparently, Superman Returns DOES THIS, making movie magic sleight of hand go down REAL SMOOTH.

Results will vary, of course. Hell, I might not like how the kid is worked in at all. As a matter of fact, I might be a harder sell because now Singer has to make this work JUST AS WELL as "Secret Identity" worked for me because that's what I'm used to now.

 

[Superman79]

Do this to you, I love the storyline.

In 20 years, this will be part of the mythos.

Actually, by that time they will likely have done a re-boot and Clark and Lois would only be dating...or Clark would still be chasing Lois.

I just think the kid distracts from the character.

 

[MoreCowbell]

Yes but you are ok with two people who can barley pass for 25 being parents to a 5 year old?
I understand why they went with younger actor and actrress for the future films but that doesn't make them having a 5 year old any easier to swallow as they are pretty young looking at this time.

...Yet you have no problem with a man flying, using superstrength, etc...? From the clips we've seen, Kate looks older then 23, IMO. Lois is also a very mature person, which I think would help.

Honestly, I don't see an issue.

 

[Fatboy Roberts]

I just think the kid distracts from the character.

Seriously, I want you to read Secret Identity. It's probably the PUREST version of the Character put down on paper (Busiek really nails him) and yet the kid does not ruin--it perfectly AUGMENTS his story. Check it out, it's an example of Superkids done so right it didn't even occur to me the concept might be "out there" until I started worrying about Superman Returns.

 

[MoreCowbell]

Actually, by that time they will likely have done a re-boot and Clark and Lois would only be dating...or Clark would still be chasing Lois.

I just think the kid distracts from the character.

Superman having a child is more about Superman then any storyline. It's about his nature, his humanity. The kid adds all kinds of new depth to the character.

 

[Superman79]

Seriously, I want you to read Secret Identity. It's probably the PUREST version of the Character put down on paper (Busiek really nails him) and yet the kid does not ruin--it perfectly AUGMENTS his story. Check it out, it's an example of Superkids done so right it didn't even occur to me the concept might be "out there" until I started worrying about Superman Returns.

I have read Secret Identity and enjoyed it as an Elseworld...now Son of Supes, well sucked IMHO. I just fear how deep they could get with this whole thing...that and the idea that if they follow that storyline, by the time the franchise hits #4 Superman won't be Kal-El any longer, but instead is Jason. There is just something that fundamentally bothers me about Superman not being Kal.

That and the whole Super Family thing...not such a fan of pop and the kids going for a Sunday afternoon fly...

Maybe it's just because I equate children+wife+ family as a sign of old age and don't want to see my hero age.

 

[Superman79]

Superman having a child is more about Superman then any storyline. It's about his nature, his humanity. The kid adds all kinds of new depth to the character.

I just prefer the concentration on the selflessness of Superman, and how having a kid would have to make him more selfish of his time from the world to give more to his family

 

[bsquad]

I just think the kid distracts from the character.

how?

 

[MoreCowbell]

I just prefer the concentration on the selflessness of Superman, and how having a kid would have to make him more selfish of his time from the world to give more to his family

He isn't their savior. He doesn't owe anything to anyone. Besides, it shouldn't impact his helping the world. Why can't he do both?

If you want selflessnes, there are tons of medium that you can find. Some of want to move forward with this character rather then seeing what we can find with TV shows, cartoons, comics, novels, etc...

 

[bsquad]

I just prefer the concentration on the selflessness of Superman, and how having a kid would have to make him more selfish of his time from the world to give more to his family

or he will be Superman and do what he can to be there for everyone. Not to mention Superman knows his son is being actively raised by good people who he trusts so even if he can't always be there (which I think a part of him understands as a cost of being who he is) he knows his son is in great hands, in a loving home. I think Superman will do what he always does: the best he can. And when that isn't enough I am willing to bet money he will try like hell to give even more.

 

[NateGray]

I just prefer the concentration on the selflessness of Superman, and how having a kid would have to make him more selfish of his time from the world to give more to his family

Exactly superman with a child as any parent will tell you the kid becomes more important than the world any decent parent will put there child ahead of say having to saving a plane full of people or my son well hmmmm not very superman anymore is he.... his priorities just went from superhero to daddy and I really do not see them making that work for even the common person much less a superman fan as many do not like the idea of him having a kid I know I am not alone on this.

I really hope the movie does well and the early critics are right but the skeptic in me is worried till I see how it plays out.

And I am sure I am not alone thier meaning there are many who are nervous about seeing it until they here reviews from people they know meaning the movie will need good WOM and well depending on how the kid plays out it could be bad for BO #'s .
I know everyone in my office will not see it until after I do and if I cannot stand the kid then I am not going to gloss over part's I did like and reccomend it to them, I will say wait till DVD.
Now I know my office is small and thats only a handful of people but how many others feel like i do? I am betting more than you would be willing to let on and will down play this post like its just me and the few people I work with.

 

[MoreCowbell]

I know my office is small and thats only a handful of people but how many others feel like i do?

I don't know how many people feel like you, but your inthe minority...

 

[bsquad]

Exactly superman with a child as any parent will tell you the kid becomes more important than the world any decent parent will put there child ahead of say having to saving a plane full of people or my son well hmmmm not very superman anymore is he.... his priorities just went from superhero to daddy and I really do not see them making that work for even the common person much less a superman fan as many do not like the idea of him having a kid I know I am not alone on this.

I really hope the movie does well and the early critics are right but the skeptic in me is worried till I see how it plays out.

And I am sure I am not alone thier meaning there are many who are nervous about seeing it until they here reviews from people they know meaning the movie will need good WOM and well depending on how the kid plays out it could be bad for BO #'s .
I know everyone in my office will not see it until after I do and if I cannot stand the kid then I am not going to gloss over part's I did like and reccomend it to them, I will say wait till DVD.
Now I know my office is small and thats only a handful of people but how many others feel like i do? I am betting more than you would be willing to let on and will down play this post like its just me and the few people I work with.

well noone said it was going to be easy but Superman can and will go above and beyond to be there for everyone. That's a given because that is the type of person he is. Ofcourse he can't be their 24/7 but the fact that his son is in a loving home and protected by good people more than makes up for the fact that being who he is he can't always be there, even though he wants to be.

 

[Fatboy Roberts]

I have read Secret Identity and enjoyed it as an Elseworld

Dude--it's ALL ELSEWORLD. It's fiction. The movies are just as elseworld as Secret Identity.

If you enjoyed Secret Identity, I don't understand how you can't enjoy this, provided the movie pulls it off just as effortlessly as Busiek and Immonen did.

or he will be Superman and do what he can to be there for everyone. Not to mention Superman knows his son is being actively raised by good people who he trusts so even if he can't always be there (which I think a part of him understands as a cost of being who he is) he knows his son is in great hands, in a loving home.

Boom. Win.

I think a lot of these worries come from very trite, and too simplistic conceptions of parenting and inter-personal relationships. It's speaking in stereotype most of the time.

 

[Superman79]

He isn't their savior. He doesn't owe anything to anyone. Besides, it shouldn't impact his helping the world. Why can't he do both?

If you want selflessnes, there are tons of medium that you can find. Some of want to move forward with this character rather then seeing what we can find with TV shows, cartoons, comics, novels, etc...

Because any good parent sacrifices the things they do for their kids...and so Superman wanting to be a good parent will be there more for his kid and less for the world.

And don't say he isn't their savior, he is, he actively accepts the role. Not because he owes them anything, but because he CAN. He has the power to.

Selflessness is a key to the character, its what makes him a hero rather than having him choose to rob banks and do selfish things with his amazing powers.

That and as i mentioned before, how does this pillar of ethics and right and wrong justify the right in a bastard child?? Not to mention the enivitable break up of Richard and Lois?

I see many of your points, and maybe wouldn't have a problem with a legit kid in the comics, but having SUperman's son be the result of a one night stand just doesn't work for me.

 

[Superman79]

I don't know how many people feel like you, but your inthe minority...

minority in this thread maybe...but not on the board

 

[Superman79]

Dude--it's ALL ELSEWORLD. It's fiction. The movies are just as elseworld as Secret Identity.

yeah and we as die-hard fans get that, but the average public sees this as the standard or as the reflection of the comics, so the "it doesn't matter, it's an Elseworld" doesn't fly, becasue to the public it's not an eleseworld