Roger Ebert: Video Games Can Never Be Art

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http://blogs.suntimes.com/ebert/2010/04/video_games_can_never_be_art.html

Video games can never be art
By Roger Ebert
on April 16, 2010 9:50 PM

Having once made the statement above, I have declined all opportunities to enlarge upon it or defend it. That seemed to be a fool's errand, especially given the volume of messages I receive urging me to play this game or that and recant the error of my ways. Nevertheless, I remain convinced that in principle, video games cannot be art. Perhaps it is foolish of me to say "never," because never, as Rick Wakeman informs us, is a long, long time. Let me just say that no video gamer now living will survive long enough to experience the medium as an art form.

What stirs me to return to the subject? I was urged by a reader, Mark Johns, to consider a video of a TED talk given at USC by Kellee Santiago, a designer and producer of video games. I did so. I warmed to Santiago immediately. She is bright, confident, persuasive. But she is mistaken.


I propose to take an unfair advantage. She spoke extemporaneously. I have the luxury of responding after consideration. If you want to follow along, I urge you to watch her talk, which is embedded below. It's only 15 minutes long, and she makes the time pass quickly.

She begins by saying video games "already ARE art." Yet she concedes that I was correct when I wrote, "No one in or out of the field has ever been able to cite a game worthy of comparison with the great poets, filmmakers, novelists and poets." To which I could have added painters, composers, and so on, but my point is clear.

Then she shows a slide of a prehistoric cave painting, calling it "kind of chicken scratches on walls," and contrasts it with Michelangelo's ceiling of the Sistine Chapel. Her point is that while video games may be closer to the chicken scratch end of the spectrum, I am foolish to assume they will not evolve.

She then says speech began as a form of warning, and writing as a form of bookkeeping, but they evolved into storytelling and song. Actually, speech probably evolved into a form of storytelling and song long before writing was developed. And cave paintings were a form of storytelling, perhaps of religion, and certainly of the creation of beauty from those chicken-scratches Werner Herzog is even now filming in 3-D.

Herzog believes, in fact, that the paintings on the wall of the Cave of Chauvet-Pont-d'Arc in Southern France should only be looked at in the context of the shadows cast on those dark walls by the fires built behind the artists, which suggests the cave paintings, their materials of charcoal and ochre and all that went into them were the fruition of a long gestation, not the beginning of something--and that the artists were enormously gifted. They were great artists at that time, geniuses with nothing to build on, and were not in the process of becoming Michelangelo or anyone else. Any gifted artist will tell you how much he admires the "line" of those prehistoric drawers in the dark, and with what economy and wit they evoked the animals they lived among.

Santiago concedes that chess, football, baseball and even mah jong cannot be art, however elegant their rules. I agree. But of course that depends on the definition of art. She says the most articulate definition of art she's found is the one in Wikipedia: "Art is the process of deliberately arranging elements in a way that appeals to the senses or emotions." This is an intriguing definition, although as a chess player I might argue that my game fits the definition.

Plato, via Aristotle, believed art should be defined as the imitation of nature. Seneca and Cicero essentially agreed. Wikipedia believes "Games are distinct from work, which is usually carried out for remuneration, and from art, which is more concerned with the expression of ideas...Key components of games are goals, rules, challenge, and interaction."

But we could play all day with definitions, and find exceptions to every one. For example, I tend to think of art as usually the creation of one artist. Yet a cathedral is the work of many, and is it not art? One could think of it as countless individual works of art unified by a common purpose. Is not a tribal dance an artwork, yet the collaboration of a community? Yes, but but it reflects the work of individual choreographers. Everybody didn't start dancing all at once.

One obvious difference between art and games is that you can win a game. It has rules, points, objectives, and an outcome. Santiago might cite a immersive game without points or rules, but I would say then it ceases to be a game and becomes a representation of a story, a novel, a play, dance, a film. Those are things you cannot win; you can only experience them.

She quotes Robert McKee's definition of good writing as "being motivated by a desire to touch the audience." This is not a useful definition, because a great deal of bad writing is also motivated by the same desire. I might argue that the novels of Cormac McCarthy are so motivated, and Nicholas Sparks would argue that his novels are so motivated. But when I say McCarthy is "better" than Sparks and that his novels are artworks, that is a subjective judgment, made on the basis of my taste (which I would argue is better than the taste of anyone who prefers Sparks).

Santiago now phrases this in her terms: "Art is a way of communicating ideas to an audience in a way that the audience finds engaging." Yet what ideas are contained in Stravinsky, Picasso, "Night of the Hunter," "Persona," "Waiting for Godot," "The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock?" Oh, you can perform an exegesis or a paraphrase, but then you are creating your own art object from the materials at hand.

Kellee Santiago has arrived at this point lacking a convincing definition of art. But is Plato's any better? Does art grow better the more it imitates nature? My notion is that it grows better the more it improves or alters nature through an passage through what we might call the artist's soul, or vision. Countless artists have drawn countless nudes. They are all working from nature. Some of there paintings are masterpieces, most are very bad indeed. How do we tell the difference? We know. It is a matter, yes, of taste.

Santiago now supplies samples of a video game named "Waco Resurrection" (above), in which the player, as David Koresh, defends his Branch Davidian compound against FBI agents. The graphics show the protagonist exchanging gunfire with agents according to the rules of the game. Although the player must don a Koresh mask and inspire his followers to play, the game looks from her samples like one more brainless shooting-gallery.

"Waco Resurrection" may indeed be a great game, but as potential art it still hasn't reached the level of chicken scratches, She defends the game not as a record of what happened at Waco, but "as how we feel happened in our culture and society." Having seen the 1997 documentary "Waco: The Rules of Engagement," I would in contrast award the game a Fail in this category. The documentary made an enormous appeal to my senses and emotions, although I am not proposing it as art.

Her next example is a game named "Braid" (above). This is a game "that explores our own relationship with our past...you encounter enemies and collect puzzle pieces, but there's one key difference...you can't die." You can go back in time and correct your mistakes. In chess, this is known as taking back a move, and negates the whole discipline of the game. Nor am I persuaded that I can learn about my own past by taking back my mistakes in a video game. She also admires a story told between the games levels, which exhibits prose on the level of a wordy fortune cookie.

We come to Example 3, "Flower" (above). A run-down city apartment has a single flower on the sill, which leads the player into a natural landscape. The game is "about trying to find a balance between elements of urban and the natural." Nothing she shows from this game seemed of more than decorative interest on the level of a greeting card. Is the game scored? She doesn't say. Do you win if you're the first to find the balance between the urban and the natural? Can you control the flower? Does the game know what the ideal balance is?

These three are just a small selection of games, she says, "that crossed that boundary into artistic expression." IMHO, that boundary remains resolutely uncrossed. "Braid" has had a "great market impact," she says, and "was the top-downloaded game on XBox Live Arcade." All of these games have received "critical acclaim."

Now she shows stills from early silent films such as George Melies' "A Voyage to the Moon" (1902), which were "equally simplistic." Obviously, I'm hopelessly handicapped because of my love of cinema, but Melies seems to me vastly more advanced than her three modern video games. He has limited technical resources, but superior artistry and imagination.

These days, she says, "grown-up gamers" hope for games that reach higher levels of "joy, or of ecstasy....catharsis." These games (which she believes are already being made) "are being rewarded by audiences by high sales figures." The only way I could experience joy or ecstasy from her games would be through profit participation.

The three games she chooses as examples do not raise my hopes for a video game that will deserve my attention long enough to play it. They are, I regret to say, pathetic. I repeat: "No one in or out of the field has ever been able to cite a game worthy of comparison with the great poets, filmmakers, novelists and poets."

Why are gamers so intensely concerned, anyway, that games be defined as art? Bobby Fischer, Michael Jordan and Dick Butkus never said they thought their games were an art form. Nor did Shi Hua Chen, winner of the $500,000 World Series of Mah Jong in 2009. Why aren't gamers content to play their games and simply enjoy themselves? They have my blessing, not that they care.

Do they require validation? In defending their gaming against parents, spouses, children, partners, co-workers or other critics, do they want to be able to look up from the screen and explain, "I'm studying a great form of art?" Then let them say it, if it makes them happy.

I allow Sangtiago the last word. Toward the end of her presentation, she shows a visual with six circles, which represent, I gather, the components now forming for her brave new world of video games as art. The circles are labeled: Development, Finance, Publishing, Marketing, Education, and Executive Management. I rest my case.
 
Of course video games are art. They're just interactive art.

How can you play a game like Viewtiful Joe and claim video games are not art?

You can even watch someone play a video game and it could be like watching a movie of some sort.

and dismissing video games as art because of the business aspect is just plain stupid. You don't do that with movies which are heavily influenced by business practices.
 
I think it goes by what you define as art. I always thought of art as "the expression of emotions".

I loved one of the definition featured in the article:
"Art is the process of deliberately arranging elements in a way that appeals to the senses or emotions." And I agree.

I think it adds, in a way, to what I already believed. I take video games as a form of art. I can't say I fully understand Ebert's thoughts, but I think he is being precipitated when saying the VG can never be art.

It depends on how you look at it.
 
If I remember correctly, Roger's original position was that games can't be art because the player dictates or chooses what happens. A game designer can craft an exciting or beautiful experience for the player, but ultimately the player can choose to ignore it. As an example, in Super Mario Bros. the player can choose to just hop in place or jump in pits repeatedly if he or she chooses.

I don't think that argument holds much water, though. I could visit the Louvre and stand in the presence of the Mona Lisa and choose not to look at it. Or I could go to a screening of Citizen Kane and choose to throw popcorn and talk on my phone the whole time. All art is participatory to some degree.

Plus there's a bit of revisionist history on display in that post. A Voyage to the Moon came out at a time when films were considered little more than novelties. At best they were mindless entertainment. It wasn't until much later that movies were considered as art.

Not to mention that films can be, and often are, every bit as souless as he implies games are at the end of his post.

Perhaps 50 or 100 years from now game historians will look back at The Legend of Zelda or Mega Man or some other classic as our "Voyage to the Moon".
 
If I remember correctly, Roger's original position was that games can't be art because the player dictates or chooses what happens. A game designer can craft an exciting or beautiful experience for the player, but ultimately the player can choose to ignore it. As an example, in Super Mario Bros. the player can choose to just hop in place or jump in pits repeatedly if he or she chooses.

I don't think that argument holds much water, though. I could visit the Louvre and stand in the presence of the Mona Lisa and choose not to look at it. Or I could go to a screening of Citizen Kane and choose to throw popcorn and talk on my phone the whole time. All art is participatory to some degree.

That's a really good point :up:
 
Ebert wrote the screenplay for Beyond the Valley of the Dolls. Do we really care what he classifies as art?
 
Ebert doesn't know s***. He obviously doesn't know about games like Uncharted 2, Mass Effect 2 or Alan Wake. All games that are better & even more cinematic than alot of current blockbusters.
 
Assassin';s Creed 2 has some cool cinematics...
 
I'm not a huge gamer, but I believe them to be art. Anything with that much work and skill being put into them, anything that's created and that originated from the human mind, I consider art. I say a game is as much art as a painting or a cartoon. Especially these days where these action games have so much story and so much writing in them. There's no way I don't consider them art.
 
Art. Let me tell you about art. I went to an art convention a couple of years back. Got the tickets because I worked at a museum. And what I saw left me in tatters . One piece involved a stack of dictionaries that had marker lines scribbled across. It is "art" because it "expresses" a bunch of stuff you have to explain. The key to art is not beauty, or how hard was to make, or what it says. It's about an artists ability to stand before you and tell you that the stack of dictionaries represents the human condition, and the marker lines represent the Bush administration.

So, I guess my point is, each person has to find out what art means to them, then look at games and decide if they meet the requirements. Personally, I think games provide "an experience" that, since it potentially involves musics, visuals, acting and even some emotions, could qualify as art. And hey, if a stack of dictionaries can count, why wouldn't Mass Effect?
 
I see alot of you bashing ebert just based off the title without reading it. I at first was like that than read the article.

His comparison to chess was a good one in my mind. Some one who plays chess is a chess player someone who plays video games is a gamer. Yet like ebert pointed out no chess players ever tries to convince people that chess is an actual art form.

I differ with ebert when i say they will never be art. Too big a statement but right now i would not try to defend 99.9% of games as art. The priorites 1-99 of video game developers is not to make artisitic statements but make engaging games the broad public will go after. The industry is still in its blockbuster movie phase.
 
This is one of those things that kids will read about in school 20 years from now and LOL.
 
I see alot of you bashing ebert just based off the title without reading it.

Gamers tend to do that. When gamers hear anything even remotely negative about their beloved past time, they act as tho the world is burning.


Games are art. Games are not art. Who gives a s**t? Games are fun. Thats all i care about.
 
I respect his opinion. He's passionate about movies and is lucky enough to live in a time that they've long been considered art. He has a huge back catalog of art to peruse. He was well into adulthood by the time games came into their own and I imagine he probably viewed them as simple toys. Which is what they were in the beginning. Toys and games.

I think the term "video game" is kind of a problem. The vast majority of "games" released today aren't games at all. There are no points or high scores and you cannot win. People of Roger's generation remember video games as they first saw them. When they think of video games, they think of Space Invaders or Pac-Man. And it's obvious from his post he still views them through that lens.

I personally don't have a problem with the term, but then again I've grown up with the medium. I know what games are and what they aren't far better than Roger Ebert could ever hope to. That's not a slight against him. Just a fact. And I agree with Bruce Malone, 99% of games are the game equivalent of Micheal Bay movies. I don't feel like I have to argue for the 1% though. I think to anyone with an open mind they speak for themselves.
 
I think if he considers filmmaking an art...then games should probably be for him as well.

I think anyone who plays, even quasi-regularly would see the similarites. If the different outcomes molded by the player is the problem, then wouldn't a narrow, very linear game count?

I think the generational gap is too massive here for someone like Roger Ebert to open mindly accept this strange, new, and rather different medium that began with Pong and clearly become something much more complex. Even if the final product isn't considered art, wouldn't the different pieces coming together count as art? The storyboarding, the conceptualizing, the composing of the soundtrack, the decison-making by someone with a vision?

Wheter it's David Cage, Shigeru Miyamoto, Hideo Kojima....there's someone leading the charge putting forth they're vision and having it realized.

I think Ebert's put forth an interesting debate, but I think his arguments for other works of art against videogames actually counteracts what he's saying.

Interesting, nontheless.
 
I respect his opinion. He's passionate about movies and is lucky enough to live in a time that they've long been considered art. He has a huge back catalog of art to peruse. He was well into adulthood by the time games came into their own and I imagine he probably viewed them as simple toys. Which is what they were in the beginning. Toys and games.

I think the term "video game" is kind of a problem. The vast majority of "games" released today aren't games at all. There are no points or high scores and you cannot win. People of Roger's generation remember video games as they first saw them. When they think of video games, they think of Space Invaders or Pac-Man. And it's obvious from his post he still views them through that lens.

I personally don't have a problem with the term, but then again I've grown up with the medium. I know what games are and what they aren't far better than Roger Ebert could ever hope to. That's not a slight against him. Just a fact. And I agree with Bruce Malone, 99% of games are the game equivalent of Micheal Bay movies. I don't feel like I have to argue for the 1% though. I think to anyone with an open mind they speak for themselves.

Yeah, this is basically what popped into my head with this article, and previous articles from Ebert in the past on the subject. The chess analogy he uses is a picture perfect example of what you're saying. It proves how out of date his ideas are on the medium.

I see alot of you bashing ebert just based off the title without reading it. I at first was like that than read the article.

His comparison to chess was a good one in my mind. Some one who plays chess is a chess player someone who plays video games is a gamer. Yet like ebert pointed out no chess players ever tries to convince people that chess is an actual art form.

No, his comparison to chess is actually a pretty bad one by today's standards. Maybe by the standards 15-20 years ago, sure, but the medium has evolved since then.
 
Great rebuttal article from IGN.

Dad is Dead: Rebutting Roger Ebert
Dick Butkus is neither art, nor a videogame.
by Mike Thomsen


US, April 19, 2010 - One of the great thrills of being wrong comes during the moments after having made a demonstrably false assertion. You can begin to feel the adrenaline flow as you try and defend your position while your claimed territory constricts around you. I remember one night on the eve of a friend's wedding when I'd made an off-hand remark about Charlemagne having played a crucial role in the American Revolution. My friend, now a tax attorney in Texas, spat out a mouthful of beer in disbelief. I could see the gathering relish in his eyes as he realized he had me pinned to a wall. Charlemagne obviously had nothing to do with the American Revolution. I had been thinking of Lafayette, but the difference between Charlemagne and Lafayette had, after five hours of celebratory drinking, passed me by. As I saw his coming antagonism, I didn't stop to think about what I'd said, I simply entrenched myself in the idea that I was right. After having my stupidity corroborated by literally every person invited to comment on the matter I was left to embrace the awful idea that I had been wrong, even while trying to say something positive about the long history of Franco-American cooperation.

In recent years, Roger Ebert has become a significant critic of videogames. Not of the industry or the aesthetics of any particular game, rather he has disavowed the medium itself. Videogames can never be art. Ebert recently reconsidered the question after a reader forwarded him Kellee Santiago's recent TED presentation arguing that games are art. Five years ago, Ebert made his original assertion that games could never be art in the same way as "serious" film and literature can. He has now revisited the subject by issuing a decree, in part, on my behalf, "no video gamers now living will survive long enough to experience the medium as an art form."


Consider me Exhibit A in the case against Ebert's assertion. I experienced the medium as an art form from the very first moment I played a videogame almost thirty years ago. Ebert says no critic has ever forwarded a videogame that could be compared to the great works of the old, canonized art. At the risk of sounding self-congratulatory, he's wrong on this count as well. I did just that six months ago when I described my experience playing Metroid Prime as of equivalent emotional and thematic value as my time watching Citizen Kane. I invoked the moral anarchy of Richard III when I wrote about Haze. I wrote about Mirror's Edge as a sublime memento mori, comparing its self-directed sensoria to the novel's shift from plot to internal narrative with writers like Knut Hamsun and Virginia Woolf.

If you're unwilling to take my arguments, consider Tom Bissell the award-winning contributor to the New Yorker who wrote of Grand Theft Auto IV, "There are times when I think GTA IV is the most colossal creative achievement of the last 25 years." Or else you might consider Steve Poole, author of Unspeak and Trigger Happy, who described his experience with Shadow of the Colossus. "For me, the aesthetic pleasures weren't enough to outweigh the powerful regret the game so astonishingly succeeded in engendering. If a game of violence is so effective in its message of anti-violence that you actually stop playing, does that mean it was a success or a failure?"

Or consider Brenda Brathwaite, the game design veteran who is now working on a series of games intended for play in art galleries. I saw her standing at a podium at the Art History of Games conference in Atlanta and break down in tears describing her experience with Tale of Tales' The Path while recovering from an attack in real life. She pointed out Michael Samyn and Auriea Harvey who were in the audience as her voice wavered and her eyes filled. "Thank you," she told them.

Is there a purpose in not allowing these experiences, ideas, and feelings to be considered alongside those provoked by Nabakov, Dostevsky, Stravinsky, Joyce, Lang, Bergman, Kurosawa, Beethoven, or whomever you'd like to include as an emissary of great art? Does it enrich us to exclude Smerdyakov from a conversation about violence and Colossus? Are we better for having bucked at the suggestion that Prime's ethereal isolation could have the same human fingerprints as Kane's loneliness?

At the end of his essay, Ebert asks a pointed question. "Why are gamers so intensely concerned, anyway, that games be defined as art? Bobby Fischer, Michael Jordan and Dick Butkus never said they thought their games were an art form. Nor did Shi Hua Chen, winner of the $500,000 World Series of Mah Jong in 2009. Why aren't gamers content to play their games and simply enjoy themselves?"

The answer is simple. Videogames are not games, and there is more in them than winning and enjoyment. The reason football is not art is because its rules were designed with the primary goal of competition. Competition is only one of a great many different experiences that a videogame can create. Games can also be about losing, and not competing at all. They can be about love, the impossibility of relationships, the beautiful indifference to our individual life choices, urgent intimacy in the shadow of death, sexual anxiety, and confrontation with life choices to which there are no right answers. There are games that, using the language of authored interaction, invoke all of these ideas, and many more beyond.

What's most ironic about Ebert's latest round of criticism is that it's based on an invalid reading of the works he's arguing against. After watching a video of "Waco Resurrection," Ebert concludes that it is a "brainless shooting gallery." Of Braid, he says the time reversal mechanic breaks the "discipline of the game," and doubts that "I can learn about my own past by taking back my mistakes in a video game." Ebert concludes by addressing Flower: "Nothing she shows from this game seemed of more than decorative interest on the level of a greeting card." He reaches these conclusions by virtue of having streamed clips of each work online. This would be the equivalent of dismissing a film after having read a dismissive essay about it.

"Videogames by their nature require player choices, which is the opposite of the strategy of serious film and literature, which requires authorial control," he wrote in 2005. Videogames are art precisely because their interactions—player choices, as he puts it—necessitate authorial engagement. When Ebert criticizes the aesthetics and general concepts of a game based on a recorded excerpt, he is experiencing them as film. A videogame is not a videogame on YouTube. The language a creator uses to express her heart or mind is discovered through a firsthand experience of the allowable actions and their consequent significance. To criticize an individual work on those grounds, let alone an entire medium, is invalid, a fine exemplar of how stupid even our most curious and articulate minds can be.



Videogames are a part of a new medium defined by virtual interaction. They are a subset of this medium in the same way that cinema is a subset of film. Film contains both The Silence and the instructional video that I had to watch on the first day of my job at McDonald's fifteen years ago. There is a great similarity in the ways film and videogames evolved. Early cinema was fixated on superficial frisson, the elicitation of goose bumps and quickened heart rates in the dark. There is no more emotional subtlety in The Great Train Robbery than there is in Donkey Kong.

Both of them present exaggerated worlds that invoke basic icons of evil, desire, modernity, and the imminent threat of death. There is no nuance in either work, but their creative elements are so nearly universal they invite extrapolation and personalization. I don't play Donkey Kong to "win," I play it to survive a surreal assault by a higher power in service of rescuing a woman I presume to love. I feel anxiety in the prospect of being hit by a barrel not because it would mean the computer had beaten me, but because of what that defeat would mean.

While I cannot tell you definitively what videogames are, I know for historical fact that games have been art. Yoko Ono's white chessboard is a game with a clear emotional expression that can only come from an experience of rules. It's most distinctive quality emerges from obscuring chess rules, whose warlike implications we often take for granted. You might consider it solely as an objet d'art, but it has a more immediate power when actually played. The experience of trying to account for all of the pieces, rules, and the loaded tactical implications of a chessboard with a minimum of visual cues is game art. It uses the language of rules, consequences, and objectives to create a deeply personal and emotional experience.


The reason Ebert needs rebuffing is that so many people assume he's right. The most damning implications of his criticism are not against games themselves. All great works of creativity outlive the critical droppings scattered at their feet. Instead, Ebert's assertion flies in my face and the faces of my colleagues who punctuate articles on the subject with limpid apathy. "Why do we even care if games are art?" Because without art, our understanding of what games are, how they move us, and where they have yet to go is diminished. It makes it so Terry Cavanaugh can't use the language of collection and 2 dimensional obstacle jumping to find a painful metaphor for a failing relationship. Will Wright can't draw from the evolutionary corners of science fiction a deterministic fable about the meaning of existence. Peter Molyneux can't end Fable 2 with a simple, non-competitive question about what in my fifteen hours of play I'd be willing to discard forever.

I played Fable 2 in the months before I quit my job, abandoned health insurance, cashed out my savings, left my family, and moved to New York for a woman I was in love with. When I reached the end of Fable 2 and was told to choose between love, wealth, or community. I set the controller down and stared at the screen in silence for almost twenty minutes. It was a systemic echo of a decision whose terrible weight I had been grappling with for months. Each choice required double as much sacrifice. The accumulation of game objects, interactions, and character personalization had all been in preparation for that final moment. I was allowed to collect as much as I wanted in the short term, but completing the experience would require that most of it be let go again. And it pierced in a way that no movie has ever done. What would Dick Butkus do in that moment? How about Bobby Fischer, Michael Jordan, or Hua Shi Chen?

At the Cannes Film Festival in 1991, after half a century making films, Akira Kurosawa confessed he knew less about what a movie was at the end of his career than at the beginning. When Ebert says games will not be art in the lifetime of any living gamer, he is writing only for himself. He will die having never experienced the art of games. He will die having grouped Braid together with Mahjong, Metroid Prime with the NFL. I don't deny they have many elements in common, but I wouldn't put them in the same category anymore than I would say Stroszek is like the Nightly News because they both involve cinematography, editing, performance, and music.

This is destructive thinking because it reduces complexity and narrows the scope of something, by nature, unquantifiable. There's little use in arguing for what something isn't. Citizen Kane is, by Ebert's assessment of consensus, the greatest movie ever made. It also contains a great impoverishment of language that stands as a blight against the entire medium of film. Joseph Mankiewicz's chatty Americana cannot be considered any kind of an improvement on the timeless blank verse of Shakespeare and Marlowe. Would you want to dismiss Kane on the grounds that its sense of poetic language is hollow in comparison to works that had to make do without cinematography and editing?

Ebert is asking us to turn away from everything beautiful and irreplaceable in videogames on terms that ignore the things that can only be accomplished through interaction. He does not even appear to be conversant in how expressive interactive rules really are. I can't say with any greater authority that I know the full extent of what videogames are, but I am happy to be a voice in the spectrum of people regularly discovering, praising, and advocating for their artistic expressions. For thirty-two years I have lived in a world where videogames have been art. Discovering how and why is the future. Eventually that future won't include Roger Ebert. What will we be able to say for ourselves then?
http://au.xbox360.ign.com/articles/108/1084651p1.html
 
If there was any more evidence that Roger Ebert is out of touch...

Okami [/end thread]
 
Ace of Knaves said:
If there was any more evidence that Roger Ebert is out of touch...

Okami [/end thread]

Well yeah, that and like... most of the games to have come out in the last 10 years. Roger Ebert has no credibility in this instance, considering he has displayed he has little to no knowledge of games or the gaming culture.
 
I agree with a lot of the statements here, and do believe it's just a generational gap, mixed in with his bias towards movies making him think video games are a lesser genre. I believe he really does believe that games will never be art, but it doesn't make it true. Just as I have not agreed with many of his critiques on movies, I don't agree here, and in the end it's just a difference of opinion based on different views on the same subject. He just happens to be a fairly well known personality who can get his voice heard easily when he wants to.


One statement that probably didn't bother many people, but always stuck with me on how Hollywood can be out of touch with games for the most part, was one from Spielberg. He said something along the lines of, "In the future games will make a genuine emotional impact. You'll hit level 4 and cry." That was during this generation of consoles as well. The reason it bothers me is that, A.) He assumes no game has been capable of that to this point, and B.) The use of "level 4" meaning his mind set of what video games are is that they haven't evolved past NES days of levels and points and story lines. Now that's not anything against Spielberg, but IMO it is a good example of how a lot of ppl view games, especially Hollywood big wigs.

I think the attitude that video games are children's toys will die out faster and faster. The gamers of today will have children and raise them to think of it as a normal pass time. Plus games are an ever expanding buisness, so more and more ppl are giving them a chance. It does annoy me sometimes with something like Heavy Rain comes out puts out a genuinely deep story and then gets a blanket statement made indirectly about it being a child's toy just because of the form of entertainment it takes place in. Meanwhile Hollywood relies more and more on CGI and less on story telling, leading to a lot of crap movies, and then them getting praised as art. Tho truthfully, it doesn't bother me. I never encounter ppl in my day to day life who say things like that, those who do bring up games seem to play them themselves. Most of the grandstanding and talking down about video games I see seems to come from angry moms who bought an M game for their 5 year old, congressmen looking for a cause to fight against that will get them votes, Hollywood directors trying to gain some air of superiority over what they view as an inferior form of entertainment, or new channels looking to get ratings by blaming games for something they had no part in.


(Ha....sry guess I rambled on a bit this time. Oh well, not worried about editing it down this time.)
 

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