Smoking Bylaw

[hippie_hunter]

The entire state of New York has banned smoking from all public buildings. Bars I think should allow smoking but everything else. I quite enjoy. I hate it when I go to a restaurant and have to deal with smokers.

 

[Addendum]

Right, because before smoking bans there were no smoke-free restaurants

 

[Halcohol]

Wouldn't the right to choose be their right to choose to go to another bar and my right to choose whether or not to allow smoking as opposed to the government interfering with the private section?

See, but I'm okay with that. It's for the well-being of society as a whole by eliminating an addicting and unhealthful element from an area where there's lots of people.

I think Abaddon is right about you though...

You mean Addendum? About what?

The entire state of New York has banned smoking from all public buildings. Bars I think should allow smoking but everything else. I quite enjoy. I hate it when I go to a restaurant and have to deal with smokers.

Why do you think bars should be smoking again?

 

[Addendum]

Why is society worth it though?

 

[Halcohol]

Why is society worth it though?

Aye, that's the real rub of it.

Back in a bit.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Why do you think bars should be smoking again?

1. It's a freaking bar. Bars are traditionally smokey.

2. I don't go to bars. I can't drink (Legally is not the problem for me, even though I'm 18, the fact is that my body doesn't tolerate alcohol at all. Ever get drunk off of a paper dixie cup full of alcohol?).

3. If you're degrading your liver with alcohol at bar, what's wrong doing the same to your lungs at a bar.

4. Smoking is a social taboo, despite being a disgusting one. Bars are social places along with getting drunk.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Right, because before smoking bans there were no smoke-free restaurants

It's not that. I personally find smoking to be very filthy and disgusting. I can't stand the smell of cigarette smoke at all. I just really do not want to have to deal with it at all when I want to enjoy a good meal.

 

[Addendum]

And sometimes I don't want smoke with my meal. So I find a place that doesn't allow smoking. Sometimes I do. So I go to a place that allows it.

I don't go to a smoking restaurant and have everyone stop smoking, nor do I go to a non-smoking place and light up.

 

[huskerwebhead]

Would you like people voting on how you spend your money? Would you like people voting on how you go about your daily business? The fact is it is nothing people should be voting on. People should not vote on how I run my PRIVATE business. That my friend, is socialism. We live in a free market economy. If I go to Red Lobster and dislike the food am I going to vote to get a new chef in place? No, I am going to stop going there. That is how a free market system works.

First, I am not a smoker. And I in no way require the government to "make my decisions for me." I fully understand that I have the ability to get up and leave any business because I don't like the service or whatever.

That being said, your major beef is you don't want the government interfering with how you run your business. I can respect that. But don't they do that already? (forgive me, as I am not a business owner...so these are legit question so I can understand your point of view better):

-You have to have a license to sell booze...and have to abide by that. Which means they dictate who you can sell to...nobody under 21. You, of course, can....but could get fined and or your license revoked.
-You, I assume, get regular inspections by Fire Inspectors and Health Inspectors. Which forces you to conform to certain way to run your business as well. You can't just run your kitchen (assuming you have one) without it being a certain level of clean. And you can't even open your doors without conforming to certain fire codes (as I understand it).
-Here locally you can't have any slot/gambling machines.

And that's just what I can think of off the top of my head...and not being a business owner so obviously I don't know all the rules and regulations. So it seems that government is already involved and already dictating how you run your business in some way. So how are these different? At some point or another someone had to come up with these laws. In any case, I don't really see how it prevents you from running your business?

In Nebraska, the primary reason behind the law was to force business owners to provide a healthy, safer workplace for their employees...and of course for the customers. In contrast to one of your previous posts you do have a responsibility to provide a safe environment for your employees and patrons. I know in a later post you stated that people believe Smoking is not considered a threat to someone's life. I'm a little confused by that...It would seem pretty clear to me that almost everyone agrees that smoking is harmful to you. I didn't think that was even in debate anymore. And especially here, obviously enough people believe it's a big enough "threat" that it creates an unhealthy work environment. Much like a filthy kitchen or a building with no sprinklers or fire exits.

I'm curious, if a law gets passed in your area...directly effecting your business...what would you do?

 

[huskerwebhead]

So, let me get this straight? If the people voted to grant Bush unlimited powers to reign over America, to do whatever he wants, it'd be OK, because, hey, using your inane logic, the people voted.

NO! WRONG! In order for a Democracy (or Democratic Republic or Federal Republic, whichever term your prefer) to thrive and function, yes, the people have to have a say in what goes on, but what they say has to promote or somehow co-exist with the idea of freedom, not the exact opposite. In other words, yes, OK, if we all voted for Bush to become our Supreme Chancellor, yes, we all voted, yippee, BUT THAT DOESN’T MAKE IT DEMOCRATIC!!

Now come on...that's just a ridiculous. It's not even the same thing and you know it.

If I want to be the fattest mother ****er on the earth, I HAVE A RIGHT TO DO THAT. It harms NO ONE but myself. WHY DON’T YOU UNDERSTAND THIS. In a democracy, the government should ONLY INTERFERE with private affairs when it starts affecting and damaging OTHER people WITHOUT their consent.

Which is exactly what second hand smoke does. Regardless of the belief that the statistics are allegedly exaggerated, it is a fact that second hand smoke damages you.

 

[Matt]

Now come on...that's just a ridiculous. It's not even the same thing and you know it.



Which is exactly what second hand smoke does. Regardless of the belief that the statistics are allegedly exaggerated, it is a fact that second hand smoke damages you.

when it damages people without their consent No one is forcing anyone into a smoking restraunt. There are just as many non-smoking only establishments as there are smoking. Its not like there is no alternative.

 

[Matt]

First, I am not a smoker. And I in no way require the government to "make my decisions for me." I fully understand that I have the ability to get up and leave any business because I don't like the service or whatever.

That being said, your major beef is you don't want the government interfering with how you run your business. I can respect that. But don't they do that already? (forgive me, as I am not a business owner...so these are legit question so I can understand your point of view better):

-You have to have a license to sell booze...and have to abide by that. Which means they dictate who you can sell to...nobody under 21. You, of course, can....but could get fined and or your license revoked.
-You, I assume, get regular inspections by Fire Inspectors and Health Inspectors. Which forces you to conform to certain way to run your business as well. You can't just run your kitchen (assuming you have one) without it being a certain level of clean. And you can't even open your doors without conforming to certain fire codes (as I understand it).
-Here locally you can't have any slot/gambling machines.

And that's just what I can think of off the top of my head...and not being a business owner so obviously I don't know all the rules and regulations. So it seems that government is already involved and already dictating how you run your business in some way. So how are these different? At some point or another someone had to come up with these laws. In any case, I don't really see how it prevents you from running your business?

In Nebraska, the primary reason behind the law was to force business owners to provide a healthy, safer workplace for their employees...and of course for the customers. In contrast to one of your previous posts you do have a responsibility to provide a safe environment for your employees and patrons. I know in a later post you stated that people believe Smoking is not considered a threat to someone's life. I'm a little confused by that...It would seem pretty clear to me that almost everyone agrees that smoking is harmful to you. I didn't think that was even in debate anymore. And especially here, obviously enough people believe it's a big enough "threat" that it creates an unhealthy work environment. Much like a filthy kitchen or a building with no sprinklers or fire exits.

Yes, I am aware of those laws, but those laws for the most part that you bring up are something the public would have no idea about. I don't have a kitchen, however if I did and my kitchen is dirty and unsanitary then I chances are the people I am serving would not know about it. If they walk in and see smoking however, they can just get up and leave. Firecode can effect more than just my business, if I catch fire, there is a good chance other buildings will as well so I understand that. As for liquor laws, those are pretty much to keep it out of the hands of minors and for the protection of others beyond my bar (the government considers someone under 21 not old enough to deal with the impairments of drinking, I disagree, but that is a different debate). These laws are different situations. It really is comparing apples and oranges. All of the things you cited effect other people and are BEYOND OTHER PEOPLE'S CONTROL. Second hand smoke is not beyond someone's control. If they do not want exposed to it, they can leave.

Like I said, the government can ban tobacco all together and quit taking money from it or they should let people smoke. Smoking is clearly not such a risk that they government has not banned it. If it is good enough for the government to make money off it, why is it not good enough for me to make my own business policy regarding it?

I'm curious, if a law gets passed in your area...directly effecting your business...what would you do?

Most of these laws have clauses that the business can allow smoking if and only if the proprietor is working. I will lay off my employees and stay open at my convinence if I have to. Damned if I am going to pander to this bull****.

 

[britrogue]

It's happening to us in July this year. I think it sucks. Why can't Pubs have the right to choose whether or not they are a smoking pub or a non-smoking pub

 

[Kyalesyin]

The law comes in here in July I think. I have no real problem with being around smoke- some fond memories of that smell, but I'm looking forward to being able to clubbing again.

I'm supporting the ban primarily because of the number of times I've been burned on the dancefloor by some drunk fool waving around a lit *** like he's forgotten all about it. My hair has been singed, my clothes have been ruined, and I've had some nasty burns, all from people smoking on the dancefloor. At the moment, there is no legislation against it. Nowhere is gonna go smoke free voluntarily because people like to smoke in clubs and such.

 

[huskerwebhead]

when it damages people without their consent No one is forcing anyone into a smoking restraunt. There are just as many non-smoking only establishments as there are smoking. Its not like there is no alternative.

Maybe where you are there is...but not here. And maybe that's why we have such differing views here. You act like for every bar that's out there that allows smoking, there is one right next to it that is smoke free. That's simply not true. Keep in mind I'm going off what I know here locally for me, but before the smoking ban we had ONE, count them, ONE bar that was smoke free. Seriously...that was it. And it was lame. Not the fact that they didn't provide smoking...just their whole bar theme was stupid....yuppie. But that's another b***h for another day.

Yes, I am aware of those laws, but those laws for the most part that you bring up are something the public would have no idea about. I don't have a kitchen, however if I did and my kitchen is dirty and unsanitary then I chances are the people I am serving would not know about it. If they walk in and see smoking however, they can just get up and leave. Firecode can effect more than just my business, if I catch fire, there is a good chance other buildings will as well so I understand that. As for liquor laws, those are pretty much to keep it out of the hands of minors and for the protection of others beyond my bar (the government considers someone under 21 not old enough to deal with the impairments of drinking, I disagree, but that is a different debate). These laws are different situations. It really is comparing apples and oranges. All of the things you cited effect other people and are BEYOND OTHER PEOPLE'S CONTROL. Second hand smoke is not beyond someone's control. If they do not want exposed to it, they can leave.

You "hope" nobody can tell those things. We've been to bars plenty of times where we can clearly see we don't want to order anything from the kitchen. WOM doesn't help either. I can't force someone to stop blowing smoke in the air (and eventually into my lungs) anymore than I can force a bar owner to clean up his kitchen. I don't see it any different...you have a choice in both case...and are just as out of control to prevent it.

Like I said, the government can ban tobacco all together and quit taking money from it or they should let people smoke. Smoking is clearly not such a risk that they government has not banned it. If it is good enough for the government to make money off it, why is it not good enough for me to make my own business policy regarding it?

You mean the government is more interested in lining their pockets with money than what's really good for the people?!?!?! Shocking!!!! It's a double standard...I agree.

Most of these laws have clauses that the business can allow smoking if and only if the proprietor is working. I will lay off my employees and stay open at my convinence if I have to. Damned if I am going to pander to this bull****.

So uh...You would really lay off your staff (friends?) just to stick it to this law? It seems this is almost becoming a matter of principle for you. I respect that you're willing to go to these lengths to prove a point. And to an extent, I agree with some of what you are saying. Perhaps the fact that I am not an actual business owner I can't fully appreciate the effect of such laws. Perhaps I'm being a bit selfish as well. I don't feel that I should have to give up my favorite places to eat or drink because of a smoker's right to pollute the air. And I usually don't...I sack up and go in anyways. And now that the law is in place it's a far better experience in bars and in restaurants. And now people who didn't normally go because of the smoking are going with us.

So outside of the fact that you don't want the government telling you how to run your business. Are there any other reasons you don't want a law like that in place? Do you believe that a non-smoking environment is a healthier environment...or do you think that's BS?

 

[britrogue]

Well, I guess the ban is going to force me into quitting

 

[redmarvel]

Yes we have one in Toronto. It came into effect on May 31st, 2006

prohibits smoking in enclosed workplaces and public places, to protect workers and the public from the hazards of second-hand smoke

I like it, because you could NOT find a bar/club/restaurant in Toronto that was smoke free before it came into effect. In fact Tim Hortons was the only donut shop chain that did not permit smoking in the premises. (Donuts that taste like cigarette smoke are awful).

I have lovely long red hair and smokers would be on the dance floor with their cigs burning in their hands/mouths and I'ld have to make sure my hair didn't swing their way while I danced. Then, when I got home, I'ld have to shower and wash my hair twice to even begin to remove the smoke smell from it.

 

[Mr. Thing]

Yes, Scotland has one. A ban of smoking in all public places. Came about March/April last year.

 

[redmarvel]

What is it with smokers though? They just toss their butts anywhere they please... oh kids play in this park, too bad, so sad, I'm gonna put out my butt here. Oh, we're suffering a drought and everything is tinder dry, too bad, so sad, I'm gonna flick my butt out the window and if it lands in the grass, so be it. Wow, look at this lovely flower bed... (tosses butt into it).

The world is NOT your Ashtray. If you smoke carry a tin with you to put your butts in!!!

 

[Matt]

I think we're going to have to just agree to disagree on all your other points as I understand them, and you seem to understand mine, so there is no point in debating it. However I will respond to this part.

Perhaps the fact that I am not an actual business owner I can't fully appreciate the effect of such laws. Perhaps I'm being a bit selfish as well. I don't feel that I should have to give up my favorite places to eat or drink because of a smoker's right to pollute the air. And I usually don't...I sack up and go in anyways. And now that the law is in place it's a far better experience in bars and in restaurants. And now people who didn't normally go because of the smoking are going with us.

For me, it is not about someone giving up their favorite place in favor of the a smoker's rights. I'm not a smoker, I could care less about smokers. It is about me having the right to run my business as I see fit. I do not want the government or the voters telling me how I have to run my business. Like I said, it is socialism.

So outside of the fact that you don't want the government telling you how to run your business. Are there any other reasons you don't want a law like that in place? Do you believe that a non-smoking environment is a healthier environment...or do you think that's BS?

No, my problem has nothing to do with smokers, I agree that smoking is bad for you (although I do believe second hand smoke statistics are overexaggerated by the anti-tobacco lobby and more non-partisan studies have proven that). For me it is all about having the right to run my business as I want to.

In all honesty, I think it is a matter of being a business owner, and not being one that causes us to differ on this. I mean, imagine for a second, the government or voters telling you how to raise your child or manager your checking account. For me it is the same thing.

 

[huskerwebhead]

I think we're going to have to just agree to disagree on all your other points as I understand them, and you seem to understand mine, so there is no point in debating it. However I will respond to this part.

Sounds good to me. I was already thinking along those lines.

In all honesty, I think it is a matter of being a business owner, and not being one that causes us to differ on this. I mean, imagine for a second, the government or voters telling you how to raise your child or manager your checking account. For me it is the same thing.

I believe you are correct, and I appreciate you being patient and civil enough to pound it into my head. And I suppose the only reason that I don't really mind this one is because it benefits me in so many ways. A good thing done in a bad way. And yes, I realize it's a slippery slope. Allowing the government to dictate one thing but then being against it for others.