Star Wars Crew; How do we know the rebels/resistance are the good guys??

[hellified]

We've been cheering for these peope for like 40 years now and other than the fact that THEY say theyre the good guys, theres nothing we seen in the movies that actually proves any of it.

Chronologically speaking the PT gives us a dispute between the Republic and the Separatists...theres some c-span crap about tariffs and trade routes but we're supposed to be cheering for the republic..in the PT the bad guys or at least the guys we're NOT supporting are the separatists and at this point nothing seems that bad about anything. In ROTS padme says "So this is how liberty dies, with thunderous applause." But there is slavery in the republic and everyone seems to be okay with it. Hell her husband was a slave and neither she nor the jedis ever bothered to buy him or his mother out of it even tho they easily could. So the liberty line is a bit confusing.

But then jar jar for some inexplicable reason is given the deciding vote on granting palpatine full power and he immediately rebrands the republic the galactic empire...and those who oppose this move organise a rebellion..and since the enemy of my enemy is my friend..suddenly the separatists, the guys we either rooted against or didn't give a crap about now become THE REBELLION. But what are they fighting for? Trade routes and tariff issues and what else.... freedom to own slaves and govern as they see fit?

You know, half of America had a rebellion against a state force they felt was empire like. The rebels in americas past were decidedly on the wrong side of history and today we're ripping down those suckers statutes everywhere we find them.

If you transplant the star wars story to the civil war era then you would have blond haired blue eyed southern farm boy Luke helping an old confederate soldier help rescue the daughter of a governor, Leah,who was captured by the union army. With the help of slave trader and smuggler named Han and his indian sidekick Chewbacco Runningbear, they take down a union fort in south carolina and rescue Leah.

STILL wanna cheer for these guys???

For all we know General Leia Organa could be like Robert E Lee in the conflict?
And Luke Skywalker is the most hated dude in the galaxy?
And don't fooled by Lando and Finn's presence... there were blacks who fought on the confederate side.

SO HOW DO WE KNOW THE REBELS/RESISTANCE ARE THE GOOD GUYS??

 

[Guts]

We've been cheering for these peope for like 40 years now and other than the fact that THEY say theyre the good guys, theres nothing we seen in the movies that actually proves any of it.

Chronologically speaking the PT gives us a dispute between the Republic and the Separatists...theres some c-span crap about tariffs and trade routes but we're supposed to be cheering for the republic..in the PT the bad guys or at least the guys we're NOT supporting are the separatists and at this point nothing seems that bad about anything. In ROTS padme says "So this is how liberty dies, with thunderous applause." But there is slavery in the republic and everyone seems to be okay with it. Hell her husband was a slave and neither she nor the jedis ever bothered to buy him or his mother out of it even tho they easily could. So the liberty line is a bit confusing.

But then jar jar for some inexplicable reason is given the deciding vote on granting palpatine full power and he immediately rebrands the republic the galactic empire...and those who oppose this move organise a rebellion..and since the enemy of my enemy is my friend..suddenly the separatists, the guys we either rooted against or didn't give a crap about now become THE REBELLION. But what are they fighting for? Trade routes and tariff issues and what else.... freedom to own slaves and govern as they see fit?

You know, half of America had a rebellion against a state force they felt was empire like. The rebels in americas past were decidedly on the wrong side of history and today we're ripping down those suckers statutes everywhere we find them.

If you transplant the star wars story to the civil war era then you would have blond haired blue eyed southern farm boy Luke helping an old confederate soldier help rescue the daughter of a governor, Leah,who was captured by the union army. With the help of slave trader and smuggler named Han and his indian sidekick Chewbacco Runningback, they take down a union fort in south carolina and rescue Leah.

STILL wanna cheer for these guys???

For all we know General Leia Organa could be like Robert E Lee in the conflict?
And Luke Skywalker is the most hated dude in the galaxy?
And don't fooled by Lando and Finn's presence... there were blacks who fought on the confederate side.

SO HOW DO WE KNOW THE REBELS/RESISTANCE ARE THE GOOD GUYS??

It's been awhile since I watched the Clone Wars cartoon and I'm pretty sure the only planet shown to own slaves was Tatooine and that was by criminals like the Hutts or Watto. But I don't think Tatooine had a representative on the side of the Republic or the Confederacy of Independent Systems.

 

[Roose Bolton]

The Inner and Mid-Rim worlds were largely free of slavery because that's really where the Republic was actually more of a thing. The further outwards you went in the Galaxy and less control the Republic had. It's deliberately supposed to be a flawed government though, and Padme was too idealistic.

 

[Guts]

I know that there weren't any non-humans on the rebellion side in the first movie because of the budget. But in the other movies we see that there are no non-humans on the side of the Empire because they are a human only organization. It's implied that the Empire is prejudiced against non-humans and the fact that Thrawn is part of the Empire is supposed to be a big deal because of that.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

The Separatists did not become the Rebellion. Tattoine is in the outer rim of the Republic. Liberty dying was a reference to the usurpation of power from a duly elected democratic body body, the Senate, which represented the populace by the Emperor, which led to the eventual complete dissolution of democratic representation by the time of the battle of Yavin. Much as with the revaluation of the Confederacy I think context and content is important. For one the Confederates are on the wrong side of history because they supposedly fought for freedom... THE FREEDOM TO OWN OTHER HUMAN BEINGS. Period. So too with the Empire. They are a metaphor for any oppressive system of government that is impervious to the will of the people because the people have no actual input, read free elections, to voice their opinion.

The Republic is a stand in for any/all democratically minded republics. Such entities are messy, imperfect and unsatisfactory to all because they are based on compromise and the respect of majority rules while ensuring minority rights. Again, this is imperfect and leads to less optimal outcomes. And the idea was that the Republic had become sclerotic and yes, there were signs like being unable to enforce the rights of people like Anakin's mother in the Outer Territories, that pointed to problems in the system of the Galactic Republic. But that doesn't make what the Emperor did the proper solution nor does that absolve the Empire of responsibility of it's crimes in imposing a new order which did nothing to address the failures of the Republic. The "dream" the Rebels fought for was the restoration of a democracy within a republic.


More importantly though... Shouldn't this be something for the STAR WARS forums proper?

 

[hellified]

It's been awhile since I watched the Clone Wars cartoon and I'm pretty sure the only planet shown to own slaves was Tatooine and that was by criminals like the Hutts or Watto. But I don't think Tatooine had a representative on the side of the Republic or the Confederacy of Independent Systems.

The Inner and Mid-Rim worlds were largely free of slavery because that's really where the Republic was actually more of a thing. The further outwards you went in the Galaxy and less control the Republic had. It's deliberately supposed to be a flawed government though, and Padme was too idealistic.

this is going by the saga films not the EU stuff... but if there is no slavery in the inner and mid rim worlds and the orginal beef was over trade and tariffs then whats the problem with the empire? again just going by the films beyond the fact that some people have an issue with it how exactly is the empire mismanaging the galaxy again?

 

[Lily Adler]

Uh what's going on?

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

this is going by the saga films not the EU stuff... but if there is no slavery in the inner and mid rim worlds and the orginal beef was over trade and tariffs then whats the problem with the empire? again just going by the films beyond the fact that some people have an issue with it how exactly is the empire mismanaging the galaxy again?

Death squads killing moisture farmers in extrajudicial executions, the aforementioned dissolution of the remaining democratically elected council of the government, the approval of slavery and use of slave labor (remember... Chewie was a slave) the pesky fact that the leader of the Empire manipulated all this to obtain absolute power, the method of which included having his newly minted lieutenant slaughter innocent children, not to mention the illegal false flag war that set this all up... Oh yeah, also the Emperor was the last of essentially a millennia old cult of "evil"...

But I mean other than that the Empire was cool beans I suppose.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Uh what's going on?

 

[hellified]

The Separatists did not become the Rebellion. Tattoine is in the outer rim of the Republic. Liberty dying was a reference to the usurpation of power from a duly elected democratic body body, the Senate, which represented the populace by the Emperor, which led to the eventual complete dissolution of democratic representation by the time of the battle of Yavin. Much as with the revaluation of the Confederacy I think context and content is important. For one the Confederates are on the wrong side of history because they supposedly fought for freedom... THE FREEDOM TO OWN OTHER HUMAN BEINGS. Period. So too with the Empire. They are a metaphor for any oppressive system of government that is impervious to the will of the people because the people have no actual input, read free elections, to voice their opinion.

The Republic is a stand in for any/all democratically minded republics. Such entities are messy, imperfect and unsatisfactory to all because they are based on compromise and the respect of majority rules while ensuring minority rights. Again, this is imperfect and leads to less optimal outcomes. And the idea was that the Republic had become sclerotic and yes, there were signs like being unable to enforce the rights of people like Anakin's mother in the Outer Territories, that pointed to problems in the system of the Galactic Republic. But that doesn't make what the Emperor did the proper solution nor does that absolve the Empire of responsibility of it's crimes in imposing a new order which did nothing to address the failures of the Republic. The "dream" the Rebels fought for was the restoration of a democracy within a republic.


More importantly though... Shouldn't this be something for the STAR WARS forums proper?

really so what happened to the separatists if not joining the rebellion since they would have similar goals or at least the same foe? Also power wasn't usurped it was voted on and freely given. Hey I hate the fact that trump is president but he was duly elected regardless. Palpatine consolidating power into one office WAS the answer to the failures of the republic..not a universally popular one but one that was elected in due process. It was in fact the will of the people albeit manipulated but then isn't that the point of politics period?

Star Wars the movies is only told from one side..it would be interesting to see it from the empires side.

 

[Guts]

this is going by the saga films not the EU stuff... but if there is no slavery in the inner and mid rim worlds and the orginal beef was over trade and tariffs then whats the problem with the empire? again just going by the films beyond the fact that some people have an issue with it how exactly is the empire mismanaging the galaxy again?

Just as I stated in another post, even though the Empire didn't seem genocidal towards non-humans, they were a human only group. Also the Empire did practice slavery. Part of Chewbacca's backstory is that he was a slave to the Empire and Han rescued him.

 

[Perfect Cell]

The separatist leaders all got laser stabbed by Vader, and then the droid armies were all shut down... since Palpatine was in complete control of the separatists too, and wiped them away once he formed the Empire.

 

[Guts]

Death squads killing moisture farmers in extrajudicial executions, the aforementioned dissolution of the remaining democratically elected council of the government, the approval of slavery and use of slave labor (remember... Chewie was a slave) the pesky fact that the leader of the Empire manipulated all this to obtain absolute power, the method of which included having his newly minted lieutenant slaughter innocent children, not to mention the illegal false flag war that set this all up... Oh yeah, also the Emperor was the last of essentially a millennia old cult of "evil"...

But I mean other than that the Empire was cool beans I suppose.

Correction. Those were younglings. There might be a difference between the two. We should ask Lucas to be sure though.

 

[hellified]

Just as I stated in another post, even though the Empire didn't seem genocidal towards non-humans, they were a human only group. Also the Empire did practice slavery. Part of Chewbacca's backstory is that he was a slave to the Empire and Han rescued him.

you mean han the scoundrel and smuggler who shot greedo first and routinely dealt with criminal organizations? The guy who only helped obi wan because he paid him and was only in the rebellion for leia and once they broke up he went back to that underworld life?

this is the good guy?

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

really so what happened to the separatists if not joining the rebellion since they would have similar goals or at least the same foe? Also power wasn't usurped it was voted on and freely given. Hey I hate the fact that trump is president but he was duly elected regardless. Palpatine consolidating power into one office WAS the answer to the failures of the republic..not a universally popular one but one that was elected in due process. It was in fact the will of the people albeit manipulated but then isn't that the point of politics period?

Star Wars the movies is only told from one side..it would be interesting to see it from the empires side.

See Cell's answer to the Separatists. And while Paply might have gotten the votes to become Emperor, you are AGAIN ignoring his part in manipulating things to that outcome. The Republic did not know of his part, AS A SITH LORD, in fomenting the conflict which led to his power grab being successful. I feel you are being a bit obtuse in thinking that the methodology of the Emperor in all this is immaterial simply because it had the veneer of democracy to it. The point of politics in a democracy isn't supposed to be that manipulation is fair. Thus why the U.S. has it's bill of rights which includes things like a First Amendment that includes protections for a free press.

 

[Guts]

you mean han the scoundrel and smuggler who shot greedo first and routinely dealt with criminal organizations? The guy who only helped obi wan because he paid him and was only in the rebellion for leia and once they broke up he went back to that underworld life?

this is the good guy?

But what is the argument for keeping Wookies as slaves?

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

The separatist leaders all got laser stabbed by Vader, and then the droid armies were all shut down... since Palpatine was in complete control of the separatists too, and wiped them away once he formed the Empire.

Laser stabbing is one of the worst kinds of stabbing.

you mean han the scoundrel and smuggler who shot greedo first and routinely dealt with criminal organizations? The guy who only helped obi wan because he paid him and was only in the rebellion for leia and once they broke up he went back to that underworld life?

this is the good guy?

Now I think you are definitely being willfully obtuse.

And again... Shouldn't this be in the SW section? Mods?

 

[Guts]

Terrance Stamp did play the chancellor in charge of the republic before Palpatine got the job. Imagine if Stamp was the original actor to play the Emperor.

 

[hellified]

See Cell's answer to the Separatists. And while Paply might have gotten the votes to become Emperor, you are AGAIN ignoring his part in manipulating things to that outcome. The Republic did not know of his part, AS A SITH LORD, in fomenting the conflict which led to his power grab being successful. I feel you are being a bit obtuse in thinking that the methodology of the Emperor in all this is immaterial simply because it had the veneer of democracy to it. The point of politics in a democracy isn't supposed to be that manipulation is fair. Thus why the U.S. has it's bill of rights which includes things like a First Amendment that includes protections for a free press.

The US govt that talked the people into backing two wars in iraq and afghanistan? the same US govt that lied about the gulf of tonkin incident that drew the country into vietnam? The same US govt that made dozens of treaties with native american tribes and broke many of them. That did the tuskegee experiment? I'm not being obtuse I'm just not seeing your point about how manipulation isn't a part of democratic rule?

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

The US govt that talked the people into backing two wars in iraq and afghanistan? the same US govt that lied about the gulf of tonkin incident that drew the country into vietnam? The same US govt that made dozens of treaties with native american tribes and broke many of them. That did the tuskegee experiment? I'm not being obtuse I'm just not seeing your point about how manipulation isn't a part of democratic rule?

And... Are all those things "celebrated" or thought of as terrible policy missteps by the U.S. as a nation? Are you expecting perfection from democracy and if it doesn't live up to it then that makes the actions of a non-democratic dictatorship like the Empire acceptable or somehow excuses the oppressive policies and tactics of such an entity? Again... Your argument sounds obtuse in the extreme.

Please give us a defense of the actions of the Empire, which we have yet to hear from you.

 

[Perfect Cell]

They make cool ships. Cool, unrealistically large ships. That end up crashing into even larger ships, but while making no apparent impact.

That's pretty good.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Correction. Those were younglings. There might be a difference between the two. We should ask Lucas to be sure though.

Could be a typo. Lucas really wanted us to understand Anakin's crippling alcoholism.

 

[Guts]

Could be a typo. Lucas really wanted us to understand Anakin's crippling alcoholism.

That explains this scene.
[YT]WWaLxFIVX1s[/YT]
He was just really sad that his new suit wouldn't allow him to drink anymore.

 

[hellified]

They make cool ships. Cool, unrealistically large ships. That end up crashing into even larger ships, but while making no apparent impact.

That's pretty good.

 

[DJ_KiDDvIcIOUs]

#TheEmpireDidNothingWrong