World SUperman's Origin Donner vs. the comics

[Kevin Roegele]

I have got a bit of news for you buddy heroism isnt genetic.

LOL, like that applies to a work of fiction. People can't fly either.

 

[mego joe]

But Byrne's Man of Steel is deliberatley written to change (or if you like, contradict) previous versions of Superman, and emphasise Clark as the real person and Supreman as the disguise. In all other versions, Jorl-El is presented as a noble, clever and heroic figure himself, so it only follows his son would be the same.

I don't know. I don't think it would necessarily follow. I think it's more of a product of making the good guys always be good and accessible to the target audience of the time.

As far as Byrne's version being differernt, I agree, but I think for the most part they are really cosmetic changes. Whatever Krypton or Kryptonians are like doesn't really matter b/c Clark is raised by humans and comes to hold those values in all versions.

I think as you point out, Clark becoming the real person is the biggest change, but no matte how you slice it, it is Ma and Pa Kent who have the biggest and most important influence on Clark's moral and ethical formation. The focus is on Clark now more than before, but the reason for his choice to use his powers for good is the same.

 

[buggs0268]

I always thought Donner had Pa Kent die as the motivation, at least equal to Jor-El's guidance. After Jonathon Kent died, he was searching for his place in the world. "All these powers, and I couldn't save him". It was only after that, he went on the path to Superman.

Pre-crisis, Pa Kent always died as Clark was a kid. It was the think that showed Clark that, no matter how many powers he had, he couldn't save everyone. It is also the catalyst that makes Clark decide to use his powers to help.

 

[Super Kal]

I prefer his upbringings through the teachings of how his parents taught him to live...

 

[blind_fury]

The Kent's never taught their son to be a costumed superhero who saves mankind. They taught him to be humble, kind, and how to plant corn. It makes more sense that Jor-El, an aristocratic nobleman, would inspire Clark to don a costume and use his powers to the fullest extent to save humanity.

 

[blind_fury]

Ultimately, I think in Donner's version it's a mixture of Clark's Smallville and Kryptonian heritage that inspires him to become a costumed superhero.

 

[mego joe]

The Kent's never taught their son to be a costumed superhero who saves mankind. They taught him to be humble, kind, and how to plant corn. It makes more sense that Jor-El, an aristocratic nobleman, would inspire Clark to don a costume and use his powers to the fullest extent to save humanity.

Actually, they teach him the right values and morals that inspire him to use his powers to help mankind, not save it, and they do in fact help him devise the SUperman costume in Man of Steel by John Byrne. Additionally, in SUperman's origin form SUperman #53, 1948 Pa Kent names him Superman. In the old origins, he had no idea he was even an alien. That was something he learned later on in life.

It may make sense to you that Jor-El would inspire Clark, but it is more inspiring to see someone who is raised as anyone else could be make the decision to do the right thing b/c it is right and good based on values and morals. I think their is an important disctinction between 'saving' and 'helping' humanity. I don't think of Superman as a savior, but rather a protector and helper.

 

[mego joe]

Ultimately, I think in Donner's version it's a mixture of Clark's Smallville and Kryptonian heritage that inspires him to become a costumed superhero.

I don't know. I think it's pretty clear in STM, that Clark is a teenager who wants to use his powers but can't find the right outlet. When he talks to Pa about it, Pa says "You're here for a purpose" but doesn't elaborate on what he thinks it is, no, "You can help mankind and be a force for good" or anything like that, just "not to score touchdowns." Then when Clark leaves Kansas, he really doesn't know what he is going to do. He doesn't have a purpose until he throws the crystal that creates the Fortress of Solitude.

I think it is also clear that Jor-El is intended to be his raison d'etre, otherwise why 12 years studying with him? Plus, Jor-El outlines his intentions for Kal-El 'to be a light' and show Earthlings 'guidance' before he even sends Kal-El's ship to Earth.

While we can imagine how the Kent's upbrining would have affected him, I think the intention in the movie is that it is Jor-El's plan from the beginning and that it is because of Jor-El's tuteledge that Clark becomes Superman.

 

[captain_jimbo]

^ You're right, although as I said before Clark has the costume in his bag when he travels to the Fortress of Solitude. So he obviously had something in mind for it.

 

[bhogg]

seems to me the movie uses the kents as a mode to get Clark into accepting Jor-El's "mandate."

For example, if Clark had landed in different circumstances, he may have ignored Jor-El. As it was (in the movie) the Kents raised him properly and when the time came, he made the right decision.

 

[Lead Cenobite]

I like the way it's done in the movies, especially after seeing the Jor-El scenes in II. It adds a bit more conflict and I think makes Superman more human. We see that he wants to have a life of his own in addition to being Superman, but can't because he can't focus so much attention on one person when he's supposed to be the savior of humanity.

He's kindof torn between being a human being and being a high and mighty Kryptonian.

 

[Kevin Roegele]

I like the way it's done in the movies, especially after seeing the Jor-El scenes in II. It adds a bit more conflict and I think makes Superman more human. We see that he wants to have a life of his own in addition to being Superman, but can't because he can't focus so much attention on one person when he's supposed to be the savior of humanity.

He's kindof torn between being a human being and being a high and mighty Kryptonian.

Which is the stuff of great myth. The God who wants to be human, the conflict with the all-powerful father, and so on.

 

[Lead Cenobite]

And what makes this better than Smallville is Clark isn't being FORCED. When it's all said and done, Jor-El's just a really high tech hologram, and Clark could have lived his life the way he wanted to.

 

[CLARKY]

I'm usually pro-movie but on this subject I voted for the origin of the comicbook. I remember in Lois&Clark, just as in the comics, he felt the need to help and found a way to do it without compromising his identity. His parents helped him. Simple.

 

[Billy Batson]

* off topic*
Clarky, love you avatar, one person missing though IMHO.
George Reeves

 

[CLARKY]

oh thanks billy batson, but I put on my avatar the Clark kent I knew, or those who had any influences on me. I didn't do it out of respect but purely out of me. I've watch only one or two episode with G.Reeves and none with Kirk Alyn.
I appreciate the complimnt anyway.

 

[silentflute]

Pre-crisis, Pa Kent always died as Clark was a kid. It was the think that showed Clark that, no matter how many powers he had, he couldn't save everyone. It is also the catalyst that makes Clark decide to use his powers to help.

Agreed.

The way I see it, jor El didn't "mandate" anything.The seed was planted byJonathna and martha Kent.Jonathan's death was indeed the catalyst for Clark to go on his journey of self and find his "place in the world".But before that, he needed to know his Kryptonian heritage.Jor El's teachings complemented The Kents values, as he was only a 'guide'.As a result, it was Clark's choice to become Superman.Not Jor El's.

 

[BH/HHH]

I like both but my favourite is Donner's. That's the first Superman I ever saw and thats the one I love.

 

[mego joe]

Pre-crisis, Pa Kent always died as Clark was a kid. It was the think that showed Clark that, no matter how many powers he had, he couldn't save everyone. It is also the catalyst that makes Clark decide to use his powers to help.

ACtually, that's more golden age, but only in Pa Kent dying before CLark became Superman. In the origin in SUperman #53 Pa Kent names him SUperman on his deathbed and directs him to use his powers for good. In this case Pa is the direct catalyst, he tells Clark what he should do.

In the pre-Crisis Silver Age version, Clark became Superboy when the Kents were still alive. They didn't die until Clark was almost ready to leave Smallville. In this version CLark had the whole thing figured out as a teenager and did not require the death of Pa Kent as a catalyst. He was already a costumed Superhero when the Kents died.

 

[mego joe]

Agreed.

The way I see it, jor El didn't "mandate" anything.The seed was planted byJonathna and martha Kent.Jonathan's death was indeed the catalyst for Clark to go on his journey of self and find his "place in the world".But before that, he needed to know his Kryptonian heritage.Jor El's teachings complemented The Kents values, as he was only a 'guide'.As a result, it was Clark's choice to become Superman.Not Jor El's.

If Jor-El didn't mandate anything why the elaborate 12 year training? WHy demand he give up his powers if he wanted to to live a life with Lois? It seems the whole of the motivation is from Jor-El. Otherwise he would have left home with some notion. However, he doesn't even know where he's heading. The Kent's may have instilled the values of truth, justice and the american way, but Jor-El indicates that mankind is in need of someone to show them the way. There is a very condescending attitude from Jor-El towards mankind.

If Pa Kent's death was a catlyst, why didn't he come up with any ideas on his own? All he really does is learn that he can't save everyone and this comes up in the end of the movie when he can't save Lois, so this time he uses his powers to save her by going against Jor-El's madate about interfering with human history. That's another rule from Jor-El.

 

[silentflute]

If Jor-El didn't mandate anything why the elaborate 12 year training?

Again, to guide Clark through his own spiritual and metaphysical journey.While it's true that Jor El suggested as much, it's aso true that during those 12 years, Clark decided he wanted to help mankind as Superman.


WHy demand he give up his powers if he wanted to to live a life with Lois? It seems the whole of the motivation is from Jor-El. Otherwise he would have left home with some notion. However, he doesn't even know where he's heading.

Exactly.But he knew he had to leave.Why?Because he could feel his destiny(symbolized by the green crystal) calling to him.Why the north pole?hHe could have just left and moved to the city like some farmboys.But he didn't.


The Kent's may have instilled the values of truth, justice and the american way, but Jor-El indicates that mankind is in need of someone to show them the way. There is a very condescending attitude from Jor-El towards mankind.

Agreed.But remeber humans are less evolved than Kryptonians according to this story.So that justifies Jor El's attitude re:Calrk bein their savior.

If Pa Kent's death was a catlyst, why didn't he come up with any ideas on his own? All he really does is learn that he can't save everyone and this comes up in the end of the movie when he can't save Lois, so this time he uses his powers to save her by going against Jor-El's madate about interfering with human history. That's another rule from Jor-El.

Pa Kent's death kick started Clark's journey,It also brought hin face to face with the fragility of life.He needed to confront and understand death before he could set out on his journey.

 

[Dino Pollard]

I've always thought that the Christ allegory was out of place for Superman. Two Jewish kids aren't going to use a Christ allegory for their hero.

Two Jewish kids may not use a Christ allegory, but they would use a messiah allegory, especially since Jewish people believe the messiah has not yet come.

 

[mego joe]

Again, to guide Clark through his own spiritual and metaphysical journey.While it's true that Jor El suggested as much, it's aso true that during those 12 years, Clark decided he wanted to help mankind as Superman.

At what point did Clark decide on his own to do this? I don't think that is clearly established in the movie. He leaves home confused and unsure of what his role is, but then JOr-El gives him a purpose. It seems to me based on JOr-El's recordings that he had it in mind all along. Why else suggest leadership, and tell him that he "will rejoin his new world and serve it's collective humanity. To live as one of them and discover where your strength and power are needed. They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be, they only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all their capacity for good I have sent them you my only son."

It sounds pretty clear that Jor-El has it all figured out ahead of time, and I don't see a point in that sequence where Clark is faced with choosing his path. That point is in SUperman II and when he chooses his path, that of a normal human, it turns out to be a mistake. In the Donner cut of that scene Jor-El really takes SUperman to task for it. It's clear that he intended Clark to be a superpowered individual to help humanity.

Exactly.But he knew he had to leave.Why?Because he could feel his destiny(symbolized by the green crystal) calling to him.Why the north pole?hHe could have just left and moved to the city like some farmboys.But he didn't.

I think he actually heard the crystals communicating and leading him. I don't think it was symbolic at all. I think he's actually hearing something. So why couldn't he have moved to the city? It worked just fine in the
comics, so why not in the movie? I say b/c they wanted to adjust the origin to make Jor-El the prime motivator in Clark becoming SUperman to set up the conflict that was mentioned above in regard to SUperman II. Remember, both films were originally conceived as 1 big story in 2 parts.

Agreed.But remeber humans are less evolved than Kryptonians according to this story.So that justifies Jor El's attitude re:Calrk bein their savior.

But it also points out that Jor-El intended him to be their savior/ protector/ moral leader and that he intended it all along.

Pa Kent's death kick started Clark's journey,It also brought hin face to face with the fragility of life.He needed to confront and understand death before he could set out on his journey.

I think the death of Pa Kent merely served to set up the conflict at the end when SUperman does use his powers to save a life (Lois's) where he could not with Pa's life. THe fact of the matter is, after Pa's death he still didn't seem to have any idea of what he was supposed to do and before Pa's death neither did Pa. That was one of my original points that in the comics, the KEnts have been instrumental in shaping not only Clarks's morals and ethics, but also directly infulence Clark in how to use his powers, where as the movie clearly uses Jor-El for this element.

 

[mego joe]

Again, to guide Clark through his own spiritual and metaphysical journey.While it's true that Jor El suggested as much, it's aso true that during those 12 years, Clark decided he wanted to help mankind as Superman.

At what point did Clark decide on his own to do this? I don't think that is clearly established in the movie. He leaves home confused and unsure of what his role is, but then JOr-El gives him a purpose. It seems to me based on JOr-El's recordings that he had it in mind all along. Why else suggest leadership, and tell him that he "will rejoin his new world and serve it's collective humanity. To live as one of them and discover where your strength and power are needed. They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be, they only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all their capacity for good I have sent them you my only son."

It sounds pretty clear that Jor-El has it all figured out ahead of time, and I don't see a point in that sequence where Clark is faced with choosing his path. That point is in SUperman II and when he chooses his path, that of a normal human, it turns out to be a mistake. In the Donner cut of that scene Jor-El really takes SUperman to task for it. It's clear that he intended Clark to be a superpowered individual to help humanity.

Exactly.But he knew he had to leave.Why?Because he could feel his destiny(symbolized by the green crystal) calling to him.Why the north pole?hHe could have just left and moved to the city like some farmboys.But he didn't.

I think he actually heard the crystals communicating and leading him. I don't think it was symbolic at all. I think he's actually hearing something. So why couldn't he have moved to the city? It worked just fine in the
comics, so why not in the movie? I say b/c they wanted to adjust the origin to make Jor-El the prime motivator in Clark becoming SUperman to set up the conflict that was mentioned above in regard to SUperman II. Remember, both films were originally conceived as 1 big story in 2 parts.

Agreed.But remeber humans are less evolved than Kryptonians according to this story.So that justifies Jor El's attitude re:Calrk bein their savior.

But it also points out that Jor-El intended him to be their savior/ protector/ moral leader and that he intended it all along.

Pa Kent's death kick started Clark's journey,It also brought hin face to face with the fragility of life.He needed to confront and understand death before he could set out on his journey.

I think the death of Pa Kent merely served to set up the conflict at the end when SUperman does use his powers to save a life (Lois's) where he could not with Pa's life. THe fact of the matter is, after Pa's death he still didn't seem to have any idea of what he was supposed to do and before Pa's death neither did Pa. That was one of my original points that in the comics, the KEnts have been instrumental in shaping not only Clarks's morals and ethics, but also directly infulence Clark in how to use his powers, where as the movie clearly uses Jor-El for this element.

 

[silentflute]

[/B]

At what point did Clark decide on his own to do this?

Sometime during those 12 years.It was an organic process.


I don't think that is clearly established in the movie.

You're right.It isn't.I always interpreted as being such,though.


He leaves home confused and unsure of what his role is, but then JOr-El gives him a purpose. It seems to me based on JOr-El's recordings that he had it in mind all along. Why else suggest leadership, and tell him that he "will rejoin his new world and serve it's collective humanity. To live as one of them and discover where your strength and power are needed. They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be, they only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all their capacity for good I have sent them you my only son."
It sounds pretty clear that Jor-El has it all figured out ahead of time, and I don't see a point in that sequence where Clark is faced with choosing his path.

What you say is true.No argument.But just beacuse we are not shown Clark 'choosing' doesn't mean that Clark had 'no choice' in the matter.I tend to see at is the very fact that he went on this journey to begin with was because of his inherent goodness and trying to figure out how to better help mankind.Even though it may not have been concious of it at the time.



That point is in SUperman II and when he chooses his path, that of a normal human, it turns out to be a mistake. In the Donner cut of that scene Jor-El really takes SUperman to task for it. It's clear that he intended Clark to be a superpowered individual to help humanity.

Yes.But Clark had already begun serving humanity at that point, and only then, realized the sacrifice he would have to make for it.So in many ways (and in keeping with the Christ allegory)Superman II plays out as 'the last temptation of Kal- El'.



I think he actually heard the crystals communicating and leading him. I don't think it was symbolic at all. I think he's actually hearing something.

Hmm.Interesting point.It actually could work on both levels.Figurativley and metaphorically.


So why couldn't he have moved to the city? It worked just fine in the
comics, so why not in the movie?

Oh, I'm not saying it couldn't have worked.I was just pointing out that he chose to go to the North Pole as opposed to Metropolis,or any other big city.But this relates to the above discussion of the crystal.Did it "speak" to him literally or symbolically?


I say b/c they wanted to adjust the origin to make Jor-El the prime motivator in Clark becoming SUperman to set up the conflict that was mentioned above in regard to SUperman II. Remember, both films were originally conceived as 1big story in 2 parts.

No doubt.Jor El had a huge part in Clark becoming Superman.But again, I see it more as a guide, as oppsed to a mandate.


But it also points out that Jor-El intended him to be their savior/ protector/ moral leader and that he intended it all along.

Yes, not arguing this point at all.



I think the death of Pa Kent merely served to set up the conflict at the end when SUperman does use his powers to save a life (Lois's) where he could not with Pa's life.

Sure that was definitly one of the reasons.But to m, it runs a little deeper:Clark had to experience loss in order to think about what his role was in this world.If you remember, pa Kent started to say why he thought Clark may have been sent here , and then stopped.My feeling , is that he didn't want to verbalize something that was almost sacrilegious to say- according to his Christian values.that is, that Clark's purpose was to be the savior/messiah.

THe fact of the matter is, after Pa's death he still didn't seem to have any idea of what he was supposed to do and before Pa's death neither did Pa.

Not on a concious level.But,subconciously, I belive he did.read my thoughts on pa above.


That was one of my original points that in the comics, the KEnts have been instrumental in shaping not only Clarks's morals and ethics, but also directly infulence Clark in how to use his powers, where as the movie clearly uses Jor-El for this element.

I see it as both in the film.Not just Jor El.Certainly, the Kents had a strong influence on Clark's morals and ethics, which in turn, would help him in understanding Jor El's teachings.