Thanos = This Generation's Darth Vader

Darth Vader is the most recognisable and probably the greatest Sci fi/fantasy villain of all time.

The cbm genre already has its own character of comparable status, who towers over all other cbm villains......the Joker.

Thanos was a great villain and played with a lot more subtlety and sympathy than I thought Josh Brolin capable of. However, he's no Joker.

Probably the only cbm movie character of this century who comes close to the Joker in status is Magneto, given that he's appeared in 7 movies.

I just don't see Thanos having the same recogniton factor as Vader ( gotta think that between 1984 and 1999 there were no new Star Wars films but Vader was already a cultural icon).
 
I rewatched The Empire Strikes Back again today and, unsurprisingly, it's still fantastic. It's really where Vader becomes the legendary villain and I still have a great reaction to him revealing that he's Luke's father.

Thinking about that moment actually did lead my thoughts to Thanos, despite that I didn't have the thread, or the general comparison, in mind when I chose to rewatch the film. I think the snap very well may be the most significant single moment of a villain that I can remember since Vader's reveal.
 
Mjolnir Reborn said:
I rewatched The Empire Strikes Back again today and, unsurprisingly, it's still fantastic. It's really where Vader becomes the legendary villain and I still have a great reaction to him revealing that he's Luke's father.

Thinking about that moment actually did lead my thoughts to Thanos, despite that I didn't have the thread, or the general comparison, in mind when I chose to rewatch the film. I think the snap very well may be the most significant single moment of a villain that I can remember since Vader's reveal.
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The Vader reveal is a contender for one of the most important moments in cinema history.

We'll have to give the snap a while to bed in to assess its long term impact. Although the events of Avengers 4 will also give it a lot more perspective.
 
"I am your father" is up there with "I ate his liver with a side of fava beans and a nice chianti" and, yes, "Why so serious?" I think the snap is much bigger in fanboy culture than anywhere else, especially since everyone knows it gets undone in the next movie.
 
DACrowe said:
"I am your father" is up there with "I ate his liver with a side of fava beans and a nice chianti" and, yes, "Why so serious?" I think the snap is much bigger in fanboy culture than anywhere else, especially since everyone knows it gets undone in the next movie.
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Those are more memorable lines than big moments. "I am your father" is a big event in the story, as is the snap. The others don't do anything for the story itself, they are "just" part of showing the character and aren't even the big moments in those respective films.
 
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Iceman said:
The Vader reveal is a contender for one of the most important moments in cinema history.

We'll have to give the snap a while to bed in to assess its long term impact. Although the events of Avengers 4 will also give it a lot more perspective.
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Placing it in cinema history is a different matter. I don't think there will truly be another Vader, in part even due to something so simple as that there was far less competition back then so it was easier to stand out and to keep interest for a long time as the next huge blockbuster wasn't just lurking around the corner.

That's going by the western world though, where Star Wars have always been extremely popular. Globally the franchise has some holes where other franchises are more consistent.

Mass appeal isn't really something I care that much about anyway. McDonald's is extremely popular food, but that doesn't make me value it any higher. I don't dismiss something because it's popular either of course, as art snobbery is also pretty silly. My comparison is from a personal point of view, and that's where I think art is best judged.
 
Mjolnir Reborn said:
Placing it in cinema history is a different matter. I don't think there will truly be another Vader, in part even due to something so simple as that there was far less competition back then so it was easier to stand out and to keep interest for a long time as the next huge blockbuster wasn't just lurking around the corner.

That's going by the western world though, where Star Wars have always been extremely popular. Globally the franchise has some holes where other franchises are more consistent.

Mass appeal isn't really something I care that much about anyway. McDonald's is extremely popular food, but that doesn't make me value it any higher. I don't dismiss something because it's popular either of course, as art snobbery is also pretty silly. My comparison is from a personal point of view, and that's where I think art is best judged.
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I think the team up across films in Avengers 1 and Infinity War and the cinematic universe concept in general are a significant moment in blockbuster film history regardless of how the snap is seen going forward.
 
Iceman said:
I think the team up across films in Avengers 1 and Infinity War and the cinematic universe concept in general are a significant moment in blockbuster film history regardless of how the snap is seen going forward.
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I definitely agree there. The big cinema history thing of the MCU is the shared universe aspect. That's something that's practically breaking entirely new ground for film storytelling, as the old monster films weren't a planned shared universe. I think that's probably the most significant legacy of the modern superhero film genre, at least for the moment.
 
Overtime Michael Jordan won’t be considered the best basketball player of all time.... Montana for the greatest QB... Wayne Gretzey greatest hockey player
 
DACrowe said:
"I am your father" is up there with "I ate his liver with a side of fava beans and a nice chianti" and, yes, "Why so serious?" I think the snap is much bigger in fanboy culture than anywhere else, especially since everyone knows it gets undone in the next movie.
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Yeah, if people are making references to the snap in years to come I'll be surprised. " I am your father." is still regularly quoted and parodied nearly 40 years on.

If snap reaches the level of cultural relevance of "why so serious ?" I'll be impressed - saw that on some car decals the other day while driving.

Thanos really needs to be the villain of an entire trilogy to have the kind of impact Vader has had ( while he's lurking in the background he's not really a main character until IW, although I liked that IW is essentially his movie - and it's possible to understand his point of view. Vader really comes into his own in Empire Strikes back, and in some ways IW is Marvel's ESB - where the good guys lose, although the cliff hanger is nowhere near as compelling )
Also, as someone pointed out, Thanos has a lot more competition from other cbm villains (most of whom are mediocre - although he had to contend with Kilmonger this year) and as great as the MCU is the sheer volume of cbms is sarurating the market.

Whereas, and I tell millenials and kids this, before Star Wars if you saw a movie with spaceships often you could see strings holding them up ( 2001 and Star Trek being exceptions). Star Wars changed film making itself not just the sci fi fantasy genre. Vader, deservedly, benefits from that success.

In short, I don't see Thanos having that kind of cultural impact - but who knows ?
 
Batmannerism said:
Yeah, if people are making references to the snap in years to come I'll be surprised. " I am your father." is still regularly quoted and parodied nearly 40 years on.

If snap reaches the level of cultural relevance of "why so serious ?" I'll be impressed - saw that on some car decals the other day while driving.

Thanos really needs to be the villain of an entire trilogy to have the kind of impact Vader has had ( while he's lurking in the background he's not really a main character until IW, although I liked that IW is essentially his movie - and it's possible to understand his point of view. Vader really comes into his own in Empire Strikes back, and in some ways IW is Marvel's ESB - where the good guys lose, although the cliff hanger is nowhere near as compelling )
Also, as someone pointed out, Thanos has a lot more competition from other cbm villains (most of whom are mediocre - although he had to contend with Kilmonger this year) and as great as the MCU is the sheer volume of cbms is sarurating the market.

Whereas, and I tell millenials and kids this, before Star Wars if you saw a movie with spaceships often you could see strings holding them up ( 2001 and Star Trek being exceptions). Star Wars changed film making itself not just the sci fi fantasy genre. Vader, deservedly, benefits from that success.

In short, I don't see Thanos having that kind of cultural impact - but who knows ?
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I pointed it out about standing out in less competition, and as I also pointed out my comparison, which started today's discussion, wasn't about cultural impact. It was just about a villain having a unique moment that greatly changed the narrative.

I don't think IW ends with a cliffhanger though. The film has a real ending with a resolution to the conflict. In that way it's more like ANH than ESB, it's just that the villain was the one winning.
 
Mjolnir Reborn said:
I pointed it out about standing out in less competition, and as I also pointed out my comparison, which started today's discussion, wasn't about cultural impact. It was just about a villain having a unique moment that greatly changed the narrative.

I don't think IW ends with a cliffhanger though. The film has a real ending with a resolution to the conflict. In that way it's more like ANH than ESB, it's just that the villain was the one winning.
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Have to disagree with you about the film having a "real ending". I liked the sunrise scene but we know without any doubt that a direct sequel is coming, just like at the end of ESB ( although the villains' victory is less total at the end of ESB) -
ESB is not a direct sequel to ANH rather a continuation of the same overall story, but of itself it is incomplete without ROTJ, which is a direct sequel ( to ESB).
In contrast ANH can stand on its own.

In the same way IW is only half a story that exists to set up its direct sequel which will complete the tale. I submit that to have a "real ending" a story has to actually end, and on that basis it cannot be said that IW has a real ending.

While Thanos has accomplished his goal it's only short term. We know without a doubt that the Avengers and co will find a way to undo the snap - and that film will bring the whole saga to a close.
 
Batmannerism said:
Have to disagree with you about the film having a "real ending". I liked the sunrise scene but we know without any doubt that a direct sequel is coming, just like at the end of ESB ( although the villains' victory is less total at the end of ESB) -
ESB is not a direct sequel to ANH rather a continuation of the same overall story, but of itself it is incomplete without ROTJ, which is a direct sequel ( to ESB).
In contrast ANH can stand on its own.

In the same way IW is only half a story that exists to set up its direct sequel which will complete the tale. I submit that to have a "real ending" a story has to actually end, and on that basis it cannot be said that IW has a real ending.

While Thanos has accomplished his goal it's only short term. We know without a doubt that the Avengers and co will find a way to undo the snap - and that film will bring the whole saga to a close.
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I disagree and the meta-knowledge that a sequel is coming isn't relevant to judging the content of the film. I'd say that the way you judge an ending is done by watching the film and asking whether the film told a complete story if that's all you got. IW definitely did.

I don't share your views on the Star Wars trilogy either. ANH is only a complete story in the sense of I said above, otherwise we use your logic of that we know for a fact that the story keeps going and the destruction of the Death Star was a short term win. ESB is certainly a direct sequel as it keeps the same conflict with the same characters, just with a time jump but there are just as many years between those films as there are between ESB and ROTJ.

The reason one can say that ESB isn't complete is because nothing is resolved, with both sides failing to complete their main objectives. It doesn't provide a proper conclusion if that's the only film you watch.
 
Mjolnir Reborn said:
I disagree and the meta-knowledge that a sequel is coming isn't relevant to judging the content of the film. I'd say that the way you judge an ending is done by watching the film and asking whether the film told a complete story if that's all you got. IW definitely did.

I don't share your views on the Star Wars trilogy either. ANH is only a complete story in the sense of I said above, otherwise we use your logic of that we know for a fact that the story keeps going and the destruction of the Death Star was a short term win. ESB is certainly a direct sequel as it keeps the same conflict with the same characters, just with a time jump but there are just as many years between those films as there are between ESB and ROTJ.

The reason one can say that ESB isn't complete is because nothing is resolved, with both sides failing to complete their main objectives. It doesn't provide a proper conclusion if that's the only film you watch.
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Well we must agree to disagree then.

The meta knowledge that IW part 2 is coming certainly affects the way one views the film. It's not just that, we all know that sequel films are coming for a number of disappeared characters e.g. Spider Man.

A great film can work around meta knowledge e.g. Fellowship of the Ring manages to make death of Gandalf dramatic and emotional, despite the meta knowledge that he is resurrected in the next film. IW does a good job with snap, but no sooner has Spider Man disappeared than we're already wondering how and when he'll be back in time for his next solo.

ESB also isn't complete because ANH established the characters and the conflict. It would be difficult to watch ESB by itself, without the context provided by ANH -which is a complete film for a number of reasons and could absolutely stand on its own, unlike ESB or ROTJ. Had no other SW films been made then ANH would have gone down as a timeless classic.

While I respect your opinion, we will not agree on this. Thus, I bid you good day.
 
Batmannerism said:
Well we must agree to disagree then.

The meta knowledge that IW part 2 is coming certainly affects the way one views the film. It's not just that, we all know that sequel films are coming for a number of disappeared characters e.g. Spider Man.

A great film can work around meta knowledge e.g. Fellowship of the Ring manages to make death of Gandalf dramatic and emotional, despite the meta knowledge that he is resurrected in the next film. IW does a good job with snap, but no sooner has Spider Man disappeared than we're already wondering how and when he'll be back in time for his next solo.

ESB also isn't complete because ANH established the characters and the conflict. It would be difficult to watch ESB by itself, without the context provided by ANH -which is a complete film for a number of reasons and could absolutely stand on its own, unlike ESB or ROTJ. Had no other SW films been made then ANH would have gone down as a timeless classic.

While I respect your opinion, we will not agree on this. Thus, I bid you good day.
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I think one must be able to separate such things when making an analysis of the film itself. Whether there will be more films afterwards doesn't change how the end of the film is constructed.

The Fellowship of the Ring is a good example of a film that doesn't try to have a proper ending but just aims to be a part of a trilogy, as the ending directly sets up for the sequel to continue in media res. There's just a clear difference between endings that doesn't provide a resolution (FotR, ESB, etc) and endings that clearly shows the end of the conflict in the film.

ANH has the same kind of ending as IW, which is why it would have worked on it's own and can still have a sequel. It's true about the set up for ESB but the discussion is about endings so that doesn't really factor in. It started by me disagreeing with you that IW ends with a cliffhanger, which it just doesn't. It ends with a clear resolution to the conflict around the gathering of the Infinity Stones. FotR doesn't end on a real cliffhanger either as it doesn't end during the middle of the climax, but as far as that goes I'd at least understand using the term.

It's fine with us disagreeing though.
 
You people still go on about like Vader is more known than Thanos nowadays...

Here in Asia is not even a contest, Vader is just "that helmet guy" that Americaphile nerds sometime have on their shirts, and that is the full extent of the general populace awareness.

Thanos, they know.

Whatever the staying power of Thanos, in the coming years the Mad Titan will be remembered by immeasurably more people.

As said before, this is not about any value of the characters, but it is a popularity/notoriety contest that the contingent situations of the entertainment market during the respective debuts made a no contest to begin with. (If we are not restricting it to over 35 westerners)
 
Batmannerism said:
Darth Vader is the most recognisable and probably the greatest Sci fi/fantasy villain of all time.

The cbm genre already has its own character of comparable status, who towers over all other cbm villains......the Joker.
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See my post above regarding Vader, he's absolutely not an icon or really well known outside the western emisphere.

Ledger's Joker though, I'd say is in contention with Thanos, if not at a small advantage because of the few years headstart.

Another thing the majority on here underestimates, is that a majority of the new generations find the original Star Wars movies unwatchable (too slow and old for their "tastes"): that's their loss, but it is sadly the truth.
 
ludovica said:
You people still go on about like Vader is more known than Thanos nowadays...

Here in Asia is not even a contest, Vader is just "that helmet guy" that Americaphile nerds sometime have on their shirts, and that is the full extent of the general populace awareness.

Thanos, they know.

Whatever the staying power of Thanos, in the coming years the Mad Titan will be remembered by immeasurably more people.

As said before, this is not about any value of the characters, but it is a popularity/notoriety contest that the contingent situations of the entertainment market during the respective debuts made a no contest to begin with. (If we are not restricting it to over 35 westerners)
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Conversations are very centered on North America here. I guess most posters are from there. It's the same with the constant talk about how iconic WW is, despite that outside NA she had Ant-Man level of success.
 
Adhesive Boy said:
Conversations are very centered on North America here. I guess most posters are from there. It's the same with the constant talk about how iconic WW is, despite that outside NA she had Ant-Man level of success.
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Where you from?
I live in Korea but grew up in Europe.
 
If Avengers 4 sticks the landing then Thanos will undeniably be in the conversation.
 
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