The Confederate flag

Is it cringe worthy for the certain people using the confederate flag?

  • no

  • yes


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I think if many conservatives are going to hold up the Confederacy and their actions as an example of "states rights", I can see why minorities don't want to support the GOP. From slavery to Jim Crow, the state governments have not been very kind to them, this whole states rights arguments seems to ignore that oppression can happen at the state level, not just the federal level.
 
Yeah they just don't ****ing get it.

I'm Jewish. I can't imagine how I'd feel if someone I knew had a Swastika flag and was defending it because it points to his German heritage or some crap.

What a bunch of asses.... Seriously.
 
You guys saying that the Confederate flag is simply about being a rebel...

...holy s***.

:down
 
They sound like junior high goth kids. "I'm against the establishment cuz I'm a rebel, maaaan.... you just don't get it!"
 
Your head is deeply planted in the sand yet you tell people who are offended to do "do research and learn the facts".

It's extremely ironic.

Here are the facts, go ahead and disprove them with your deep historical knowledge.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/outlo...e-south-seceded/2011/01/03/ABHr6jD_story.html

You think feeling apathy towards ugly symbols like the swastika and the Confederate flag makes you tough skinned? No, it only shows ignorance and a lack of empathy towards your fellow man.
The author also makes a few historical revisions in order to make his point. Slavery was a doomed institution. While it would have taken much longer to end, slavery's days were over and I'd be surprised if it would have survived into the 1900's if the Civil War did not occur.

While the South desired territorial expansion into Cuba and Latin America, it wasn't going to happen, plain and simple. Spain had no desire to sell Cuba to the United States despite numerous offers and the rest of the country had no desire to go on a war of conquest into the rest of Mexico and Latin America. And if the South managed to get into Mexico the way they did with Texas, they would have only been able to settle the northern sparsely populated areas where they are too dry and arid to support slavery while the locals in the more fertile lands would not have allowed slavery to occur in their areas due to Mexico abolishing slavery in 1829. And I highly doubt that the South had the military capability of conquering places like Haiti, the Dominican Republic, and British colonies of the Caribbean to expand slavery there. Southern expansionist dreams were nothing but a pipe dream.

There is also certain facts to take into account. Slavery was effectively contained. There was no way slavery could expand beyond the 15 states that allowed it. The only other states that could have accepted slavery, Kansas (not a state but chose to become a free territory) and California, opted to become free states. Add in Oregon, which became a state in 1859 (and never would have been allowed as a slave state) and the political balance of power tipped towards the free states. The South was outnumbered. And they could not expand into other territories like the New Mexico Territory, Indian Territory, and Utah Territory because the geography could not support slavery, they would have been admitted as free states, thus making the situation even worse for the South. I firmly believe that the South recognized this and it was the biggest reason why they were very set on secession because politically, they were doomed. If they remained in the Union, slavery would have eventually been banned because slavery had no opportunities to expand.

On a side note, I also think that one of the Border States like Virginia or Maryland would have eventually banned slavery. A combination of the transportation of slaves from that region of the South to more deeper southern areas in the former Confederacy, a slightly more evolved aristocracy (slave owners like Thomas Jefferson, Robert E. Lee, etc. were rather uncomfortable about the fact that they owned slaves), and their more constant contact with their Northern brethren made the area ripe for eventual change.

Take into account the Southern economy. It was very dependent on resource draining cash crops like cotton. By the time the Civil War started, cotton had already worn out the soil in the more old Southern states like Virginia and the Carolinas and most cotton production was being concentrated in the newer Southern states like Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, and Texas. Eventually, the soil in those states would have worn out as well. The eventual downturn in agriculture would have made slavery less viable.

And then there are global developments to take into account. By the 1880's the Western Hemisphere abolished slavery including in nation-states where slavery was even worse like Cuba and Brazil. Enforcement of the ban on the Atlantic slave trade by the British made things difficult for slavery to continue, growing slave populations made the areas ripe for rebellion if the situation were not dealt with, etc.

Now it brings up an interesting question which is the better outcome: slavery ending in 1865 through a devastating war that killed hundreds of thousands and destroyed the South or slavery ending peacefully but at the cost of it enduring decades. It's a question that is rather unanswerable because both are rather horrible outcomes.
 
People that have the confederate flag up are using it to display their love and pride in the Southern/country way of life. There is nothing wrong with it. People need to get over themselves.

Agreed.
 
Now it brings up an interesting question which is the better outcome: slavery ending in 1865 through a devastating war that killed hundreds of thousands and destroyed the South or slavery ending peacefully but at the cost of it enduring decades. It's a question that is rather unanswerable because both are rather horrible outcomes.

We don't know how much delaying the end to slavery and avoiding the Civil War would've altered history. It's the butterfly effect times a thousand. Maybe a Nazi sympathizer would've became president during WW2. Maybe there's a different, delayed Civil War with more advanced weapons that kills millions. Too many variables and branching off timelines.
 
I don't know how that fact makes my "objection" pointless, but ok.

I'm not sure what I'm supposed to be objecting. It was just a minor comment. Did you even read the rest of my post?

Oh, you weren't making a point when comparing the time periods of slavery under Confederate and Union Flags?

"You guys did it too!" is an attempted excuse, not an argument.
 
Well what flag represented the side that stopped the Confederates from continuing slavery?

And then proceeded to slaughter Native Americans in what basically equates to the American Holocaust.

Thing is, our history has many shameful elements to it. And the history of man in general.
 
And then proceeded to slaughter Native Americans in what basically equates to the American Holocaust.

Thing is, our history has many shameful elements to it. And the history of man in general.

But American history and the Stars and Stripes encompasses a LOT more than what we did to the Native Americans. It's what was carried into battle against the British during the revolution, what people died for in World War II, and clung to for comfort in the aftermath of 9/11.

So what chapters of history does the Confederate flag stand for besides the shameful chapter of Southern slavery?
 
We can go on and on about the terrible things America has done to the Native Americans, the Japanese-Americans, etc..., but that really doesn't bear on the matter at hand. The Confederate Flag was never intended to be a symbol of slavery and anyone who views it as such (whether they're against it or for their own racist intentions) simply doesn't understand the Civil War. Yes, slavery was one of the major issues that caused the South to break away, but it was not and should not be used to embody the Confederacy.
 
Whatever it may or may not have had to do with in its very beginnings, but the modern connotations of the flag are completely and utterly about race. Ask the average black person how they view it. Do a survey of a thousand African Americans and see what responses you get back.
 
We can go on and on about the terrible things America has done to the Native Americans, the Japanese-Americans, etc..., but that really doesn't bear on the matter at hand. The Confederate Flag was never intended to be a symbol of slavery and anyone who views it as such (whether they're against it or for their own racist intentions) simply doesn't understand the Civil War. Yes, slavery was one of the major issues that caused the South to break away, but it was not and should not be used to embody the Confederacy.

That's like saying the Holocaust shouldn't be used to embody Nazis.

I don't understand the fascination with the Confederacy anyway. It stands with Nazi Germany and apartheid-era South Africa as being one of the most appallingly racist countries ever to have existed, and it was phenomenally unsuccessful in its brief existence. Why resurrect any of its symbols? Let it die already. If you want to demonstrate Southern pride just fly your state flag.
 
So what chapters of history does the Confederate flag stand for besides the shameful chapter of Southern slavery?

Why are you asking me? You're asking me to defend a position I didn't make. Do you see any post where I defended the Confederate flag in any way? When you find it let me know.

The only real point I'm trying to make is that slavery is a shameful chapter of American history. That's all.
 
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Why are you asking me? Do you see any post where I defended the Confederate flag in any way? When you find it let me know.

Unless I misread, you were equating the Stars and Stripes with the connotations of the Confederate flag. I was refuting that comparison.
 
Unless I misread, you were equating the Stars and Stripes with the connotations of the Confederate flag. I was refuting that comparison.

Yes, I was in fact pointing out that historical atrocities (slavery included) have been carried out under the Stars and Stripes. I in no way in this thread, or in my life in fact, disputed what the Confederate flag stood for. Which was the position you were asking me to defend as if I had made such claims.

Your question was...

So what chapters of history does the Confederate flag stand for besides the shameful chapter of Southern slavery?

Why would you ask me that when I've given you no indication that I think it did? It's a pretty text book straw man argument example.
 
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It wasn't a strawman argument. I was saying the Stars and Stripes stands for a helluva lot more than the worst atrocities committed under it, while the Confederate flag is practically synonymous with the atrocity of slavery. So the comparison you made between the two is extremely flawed.
 
I was saying the Stars and Stripes stands for a helluva lot more than the worst atrocities committed under it

That's kinda relative really. I'd be interested to hear what Native Americans would have to say about that. But of course I can't speak for them.
 
The United States had slaves, but the flag was also flown by the people who liberated those slaves when they marched into the South.

The South probably would have had slavery well into the 20th century. And even then they would only give it up due to obsolescence, and not moral reasons.

Southerners remain amazingly unapologetic about it to this day. Almost all social change in that part of the country has been due to federal intervention at gunpoint.
 
Yeah they just don't ****ing get it.

I'm Jewish. I can't imagine how I'd feel if someone I knew had a Swastika flag and was defending it because it points to his German heritage or some crap.

What a bunch of asses.... Seriously.

I own a German flag. Never in a million years would I own a swastika flag.
 
Southerners remain amazingly unapologetic about it to this day.

Yeah, that's just BS. Trust me I know more Southerners than you. I don't know any who I would classify as "unapologetic about slavery". But nice uninformed stereotyping you got going on there. It seems like you have your own prejudices. But it can be fun to stand on a soapbox and throw out sweeping generalizations can't it?

I'm assuming you come from that great mythical land where black men don't have to deal with issues of race. How superior you must feel.
 
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Saying that slavery would have lasted into the 20th Century is absolutely nonsensical. While the South wasn't going to give up their slaves out of benevolence and would have developed the pseudo-slavery share cropping system regardless, slavery wasn't going to last beyond the 19th Century because it was a dying system due to economic, geographic, and political realities.

The only way slavery lasting into the 20th Century conclusion works is if we adopt the attitude that the Southern aristocracy were a bunch of inbreed, uneducated, irrational, yokel, ******s which just isn't true.
 
Wow, someone's getting testy.

So defending yourself and people you know against inaccurate inflammatory remarks counts as "testy" now?

Sorry, but he took this whole argument from debating historical contexts to making ignorant statements against modern day Southerners. So yeah. I felt I would respond to that.

"Testy"...
 
Saying that slavery would have lasted into the 20th Century is absolutely nonsensical. While the South wasn't going to give up their slaves out of benevolence and would have developed the pseudo-slavery share cropping system regardless, slavery wasn't going to last beyond the 19th Century because it was a dying system due to economic, geographic, and political realities.

The only way slavery lasting into the 20th Century conclusion works is if we adopt the attitude that the Southern aristocracy were a bunch of inbreed, uneducated, irrational, yokel, ******s which just isn't true.

We'll never know, will we? Which is why these arguments are ultimately meaningless on both sides. I mean who would have saw a Stalinist state like North Korea outliving the collapse of the USSR and lasting into the 21st century?
 

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