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The Confederate flag

Is it cringe worthy for the certain people using the confederate flag?

  • no

  • yes


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Which is how the Japanese felt about US and European influence in the Pacific. Yes, they exploited the resources and peoples they conquered, but they also believed that an Asian nation--okay, Japan--should hold influence over that region, not what they viewed as White imperialists from the US and Europe.

Every nation who goes to war thinks they're on the side of right.
Your point would be valid if all of the Pacific was the home of the Japanese. Again, there's a very big difference between fighting a war against an aggressive power which Japan was by attacking American and European colonies along with independent Asian nations like China, and fighting a defensive war which the South did against the North.

Now while I will certainly argue in favor that American policies provoked Japan into attacking Pearl Harbor, and that you're right about how Japan felt about who should be the dominating power in the Pacific, but you are still making a comparison that just doesn't work at all.

And here's the thing, I'm not actually defending the Confederacy here. People who argue that the Confederacy fought for states rights and downplay the slavery issue are very ignorant of history. But in order to properly understand things, one must remove their personal biases and actually look into and actually comprehend what the other side believes.
 
Defining it as North vs the South has always bothered me since it's a rather gross oversimplification.

Even going by the Mason-Dixon line, the "North" included geographically Southern states such as Maryland and West Virginia.

But I guess it's catchier than secessionists and non-secessionists.
 
Of course they are "evidence". Your question is so bizarre that it is difficult to answer more fully than that, but consider this: if you wanted to collect "evidence" to prove that America had a racially divided past, it would be remiss of you to ignore the monuments and icons that stared you in the face.

And of course the removal of Nazi iconography in Germany was removal of evidence of the Third Reich. The question is whether that was a bad thing- in the circumstances, I would say not, because Germany was trying desperately to avoid any political continuity.

Perhaps I should rephrase my question. Is there a moral equivelancy that exists between removing Confederate flags and icons from public sight, and removing ancient sites in the Middle East for being 'un-Islamic', as you put it?

I would argue not. One is a symbol of a very racist, incredibly oppressive state that many sadly celebrate to this day, whereas the other is matter of ancient heritage that has no such ideologically oppressive shadow hanging over it. In short: one is being removed because it was part of an oppressive state, the other is being removed by an oppressive state.

There is mountains upon mountains of evidence that the Confederacy existed, and there is no shortage of ways of finding out what they stood for, in the evidences of the past and textbooks of today. Bringing up the 'destroying evidence' and 'burying the past' arguments always strike me as dog whistle and shock arguments either designed to obscure the real and hidden desire for maintaining their prevalence, or a simple inability to appreciate the nuances that lay behind historical change without instantly labelling it revisionism.


In much the same way, the hippie hunters' arguments above seem frighteningly similar to those who leap to defend the Wehrmacht in WWII discussions, claiming that 'they were only defending their homes' or 'it was the SS who were the badguys' or 'they would have died if they didn't go along with it', despite the very real and very recorded history of their immense complicity in mass killings and the Holocaust. It is a tactic that appeals to revisionism by claiming the perspective of the common man and downplaying the enthusiasm and complicity that many soldiers possessed.
 
In much the same way, the hippie hunters' arguments above seem frighteningly similar to those who leap to defend the Wehrmacht in WWII discussions, claiming that 'they were only defending their homes' or 'it was the SS who were the badguys' or 'they would have died if they didn't go along with it', despite the very real and very recorded history of their immense complicity in mass killings and the Holocaust. It is a tactic that appeals to revisionism by claiming the perspective of the common man and downplaying the enthusiasm and complicity that many soldiers possessed.
Even though they were following orders, in the the end, the Wehrmacht still invaded and occupied almost all of Europe. As you say, the Wehrmacht were the ones committing the war crimes alongside the SS. Still not very comparable to the Confederate Army which very rarely went on the offensive.

But if you want a reason why the South is still glorified by many in the South, it pretty much entirely comes down to the South fighting a defensive war. Unlike Germany or Japan, they weren't out there to conquer territory. When it comes to narrative, fighting on the defensive creates a more "heroic" image than fighting on the offensive. They weren't trying to impose the Southern way of life upon the North. Also, the North committed far more war crimes and didn't have the moral high ground of trying to end slavery.

Sorry, but you just can't villify the South the way you can with Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan. What they did was very wrong, but they're quite a few tiers down the evil scale than the Axis Powers.
 
I hesitate when comparing the CSA to Nazi-era Germany. But it's still a horrible faction. It was founded to preserve slavery. Even the Germans, at least officially had more noble rationale for their wars. Granted, it was always dubious, and even retroactively dated at times, but the Germans didn't say "we're invading Europe to enslave / wipe out all the non-German peoples".

That to me makes the CSA somewhat unique. Their very raison d'être was to defend an evil institution, and they never shied away from that.

Even horrible countries like North Korea have a very innocuous constitution. I don't know what cynical bastard dictated that thing, but it still gives lip service to free speech, freedom of religion, universal equality, etc.
 
Knowing the history of the battle flag of nova, it is cringeworthy to see it. Being that it wasnt really used after the civil war until the civil rights movement is all i need to know.

Most think the flag is also called the stars and bars flag. Completely misinformed.
 
Every Confederate soldier wasn't a bad person, just as every WWII German soldier wasn't a bad person, but both of their flags represented abhorrent ideals, and in the grand scheme, they were the "bad guys".

No, the Confederacy wasn't as evil as Nazi Germany, but it was also robbing people of their lives, just in a different, less immediate fashion. Generations over centuries, robbed of their freedom, in a way, is its own form of genocide.
 
Again, there's a very big difference between fighting a war against an aggressive power which Japan was by attacking American and European colonies along with independent Asian nations like China, and fighting a defensive war which the South did against the North.

Who attacked whom. (Hint: Ft. Sumter!)
 
Who attacked whom. (Hint: Ft. Sumter!)
Let's see, a Union base, that was in territory that seceded from the Union. And it's not like the South pulled a Pearl Harbor here. They first demanded that the Union pull out of Southern territory and when the North didn't comply, they then then attacked much later. So in the end, the South were essentially the ones kicking someone out who had worn out their welcome after many warnings to get out. It also didn't help that the North emboldened the South by pulling out of almost every other former Federal property before Fort Sumter. It's not some black and white "Who attacked who?

What the South did was bad. And people who actually defend the reasons of secession are stupid. But in the end, actually take the time to understand why it happened as opposed to applying an ignorant black and white cartoon version of the Civil War. And don't compare it to Nazi freaking Germany.
 
Let's see, a Union base, that was in territory that seceded from the Union. And it's not like the South pulled a Pearl Harbor here. They first demanded that the Union pull out of Southern territory and when the North didn't comply, they then then attacked much later. So in the end, the South were essentially the ones kicking someone out who had worn out their welcome after many warnings to get out. It also didn't help that the North emboldened the South by pulling out of almost every other former Federal property before Fort Sumter. It's not some black and white "Who attacked who?

What the South did was bad. And people who actually defend the reasons of secession are stupid. But in the end, actually take the time to understand why it happened as opposed to applying an ignorant black and white cartoon version of the Civil War. And don't compare it to Nazi freaking Germany.

Specifically, the demand to surrender Fort Sumter was issued on January 31. The attack took place on April 12. Two and a half months is ample warning. And then when they eventually did bombard the fort and forced the Union to surrender, there were zero casualties. The surrendered troops were held overnight before being handed over to the Union navy which took them home. Not exactly Pearl Harbor.
 
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Let's see, a Union base, that was in territory that seceded from the Union. And it's not like the South pulled a Pearl Harbor here. They first demanded that the Union pull out of Southern territory and when the North didn't comply, they then then attacked much later. So in the end, the South were essentially the ones kicking someone out who had worn out their welcome after many warnings to get out. It also didn't help that the North emboldened the South by pulling out of almost every other former Federal property before Fort Sumter. It's not some black and white "Who attacked who?

What the South did was bad. And people who actually defend the reasons of secession are stupid. But in the end, actually take the time to understand why it happened as opposed to applying an ignorant black and white cartoon version of the Civil War. And don't compare it to Nazi freaking Germany.

A base the South Carolians CLAIMED Seceeded. The legality of that claim was disputed. Rather than take it to Court, they Attacked. Tacit admission of the meritlessness of that claim.
 
Are you serious? A court wasn't going to settle that. War was inevitable!
 
Are you serious? A court wasn't going to settle that. War was inevitable!

The Confederates CHOSE to go to war. That they underestimated the Union's tenacity while overestimating their military prowess did not make it inevitable, just very very painful to both sides.
 
If I see someone displaying a Confederate flag, I pretty much assume they're racist and/or a tiresome, willfully ignorant apologist for "the lost cause." In either case, I have no time for them.
 
I'm actually friends with some people who have or had Confederate flags. Rather amiable characters. Just don't get them started on Lincoln's war.
 
The Confederates CHOSE to go to war. That they underestimated the Union's tenacity while overestimating their military prowess did not make it inevitable, just very very painful to both sides.

Going to war with the North was stupid. It was a war that they were never going to win because the North was superior to the South in almost every vital way.

That said, war was inevitable. The South didn't choose to go to war. They were provoked into secession and war. Both the North and South were constantly provoking each other with their actions and fears before the Civil War. Also slavery was doomed, which exacerbated the problem even further and made war even more inevitable.
 
If I see someone displaying a Confederate flag, I pretty much assume they're racist and/or a tiresome, willfully ignorant apologist for "the lost cause." In either case, I have no time for them.

I can at least understand 's person from the South displaying the flag. It's not a proud moment of Southern history, but it's still part of it. It's a stupid that I can understand. People living in the North doing that, I just can't comprehend.
 
I can at least understand 's person from the South displaying the flag. It's not a proud moment of Southern history, but it's still part of it. It's a stupid that I can understand. People living in the North doing that, I just can't comprehend.

Yeah, I'm a New Yorker. If I see it in the suburbs here? I'm just like, nope.
 
Just a matter of perspective. The US flag represented "treason" against the British Empire two hundred years ago.

"We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately." Ben Franklin.

No one here is arguing it wasn't treason. (AFAICT) The Brits have every right to take offense at the US flag, even if we have not been going out of our way to intimidate British subjects. The difference is that the Colonies ratified it on the battlefield. The Confederates not so much. In war, "might makes right" is commonly the case. And since the start of the Civil Rights movement that flag has been used by bigots for intimidation.

suprse surprise people object,
 
Going to war with the North was stupid. It was a war that they were never going to win because the North was superior to the South in almost every vital way.

That said, war was inevitable. The South didn't choose to go to war. They were provoked into secession and war. Both the North and South were constantly provoking each other with their actions and fears before the Civil War. Also slavery was doomed, which exacerbated the problem even further and made war even more inevitable.

For much of my life we and the Soviets (and now Putin's Russia)have been provoking each other. Didn't go to war. And the Union managed to not start this,

The Confeds had options get a Constitutonal Convention tie it up in courts have their Reps foot drag on legislation the way today's GOP is doing this to Obama. Instead they fired on Federal Troops because they split the Democratic ticket between two candidates and the then obscure Republican party won.

.
 
I wouldn't say the South was provoked. The South refused to let go of slavery, the way many other countries did. They also refused any compromise. And even so, some slave states didn't secede.
 
For much of my life we and the Soviets (and now Putin's Russia)have been provoking each other. Didn't go to war. And the Union managed to not start this,
It's amazing how effective nuclear deterrence is. Nuclear weapons are possibly one of the most effective defensive weapons ever created.

The Confeds had options get a Constitutonal Convention tie it up in courts have their Reps foot drag on legislation the way today's GOP is doing this to Obama. Instead they fired on Federal Troops because they split the Democratic ticket between two candidates and the then obscure Republican party won.
The GOP was not obscure party by 1860. They had effectively replaced the Whigs as the second party in the United States. While they were boosted by the Democrats being split, Lincoln would have still won even if the Democrats were united. The Republicans were very smart in nominating a moderate who had appeal in moderate states like Illinois, Indiana, Ohio, and Pennsylvania (which Lincoln won handedly).

I wouldn't say the South was provoked.
The South was totally provoked. Many Northern states refused to comply with the Fugitive Slave Act. Northern politicians did everything they could to mitigate the political power of the South. Abolitionists characterized Southerners as a bunch of Calvin Candys. The North was essentially the equivalent of that kid who kept going "Not touching you, not touching you!"

The election of Abraham Lincoln was the last straw for the South. Even though Lincoln was a moderate, to the South, the GOP was nothing but a party of radical abolitionists thanks to the previous Presidential election where the GOP nominee was John C. Fremont and the party was characterized by other radical abolitionists like New York governor William Seward. Lincoln was seen as one of them just by association.

It also didn't help that the South clearly saw that slavery's days were numbered. It did not have a future in the United States and they were stubborn to keep hold of their archaic institution.

The South refused to let go of slavery, the way many other countries did. They also refused any compromise.
This is actually where I will criticize the American Abolition Movement tremendously. They hurt their own cause far more than any pro-slavery faction could.

The reason why slavery was done away in many other countries (primarily the British Empire), was because slave owners were compensated for the emancipation of their slaves. While they were compelled to free their slaves, slave owners were given restitution. In areas that emancipated their slaves without compensation, like in Continental Europe, it was done away with because slavery really had no impact on their economies the way it did in the New World. Slaves were few and far between, there were few slave owners to be an integral part of the political/economic elite, and the Abolition Movement was deeply allied with Christian principles in a deeply Christian continent.

The American Abolition Movement, as opposed to the rest of British-led global Abolition Movement, rejected compensation. They refused to allow slave owners to have any compensation at all because they refused to recognize its legitimacy. They were so far radical in their beliefs that many Abolitionists even refused to recognize the legitimacy of the U.S. Constitution because it legitimized slavery. And then they took it even further by characterizing slave owners as nothing but purely evil cartoon characters. Some went beyond even that like John Brown, by inciting slave rebellions or took part in the Underground Railroad to help their slaves escape.

But it's very hard to criticize the slave owners for being uncompromising when the American Abolition Movement was just as uncompromising, if not more. And they are pretty much the reason why the slave owners hardened their pro-slavery position. If the American Abolition Movement embraced restitution and didn't actively antagonize the South, the Southern slave owners probably would have been more willing to compromise and slavery would have probably ended much sooner and without violence.

And even so, some slave states didn't secede.
For various reasons beyond slavery. States like Kentucky, Maryland, and West Virginia had strong economic ties to the North thanks to the Ohio River or mercantile interests (Baltimore). States like Maryland were also very pragmatic in recognizing that there was just no way that they could effectively defend themselves from a Union invasion. The overwhelming majority of blacks were free in Delaware despite not abolishing slavery.

But at the same time, there were also strong Confederate sympathies in Missouri, Maryland, and Kentucky. And they had their own Confederate governments to go along with them. In the cases of Missouri and Maryland, the Union was not very trusting of their loyalty to the Union and used their military to ensure that they would not secede. With Kentucky, they ultimately sided with the Union because the Confederacy violated Kentucky's neutrality.
 
The abolitionists were considered radicals. Most non-Southerners simply opposed supporting slavery. They didn't care much what went on in the South. The South expecting the rest of the country to support their wicked laws was just another example of Southern refusal to compromise in any way.

Lincoln's administration even pitched compensated emancipation to the loyal slave states, and they said hell no. Lincoln also gave similar terms to the Southern states, and they didn't even respond.

The South was even more intransigent than it is now.
 

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