The Fermi Paradox

[redhawk23]

Also just exactly what do we mean by intelligence? Because there are many types of intelligence we tend to undermeasure and mis-interpret in animals from own planet due to applying human intelligence tests (which also tend to be very biased towards Western logic leading even many humans to score badly).

There may be alien species whose social interactions and ability for empathy and communication far exceed ours but they may be limited technologically due to lack of need for tools for survival.

 

[Jekecy]

That does seem rather unlikely, given the age of the universe.

Yeah but it would be really odd for us to be the first. Our solar system is only a third the age of the universe. You would think life would have started long before in older systems.

Given we are the sole reference point for "intelligent life", how exactly would one deduce probability of it sprouting up again? Especially on a cosmic scale?

 

[Thundercrack85]

Well, saying we're the first, when we've been preceded by countless stars, and countless worlds, seems like an even bolder assumption to me.

We're not even sure if we're living in the first universe.

There could be a civilization down the interstellar road and we wouldn't know it. Who knows what could have been five billion years ago, on the other end of the universe, in a galaxy we have yet to give a proper name.

All we do know is that the elements that brought about our existence already existed, and were already forming stars and planets.

 

[redhawk23]

What we most often recognize as "intelligence" is actually a collection of different cognitive adaptations, often in a "side effect" kind of way (there is evidence that linguistics and understandings of social relationships are derived and re-purposed from capacities originally associated with our spatial reasoning which has been attributed to both the arboreal lifestyle of earlier primates and hunting.)

Alien intelligence would likely be developed in response to a whole collection of very different pressures and even if we outright encountered such life forms, their intelligence may not be obvious.

Intelligent life is not necessarily technology dependent. What if they have philosophies and religions comparable to the Amish? What if they blew themselves to hell and their living out their own Mad Max situation. What if, really, interstellar distances really just are not biologically feasible?

Moving from place to place, spreading across continents is part of human history. Most science fiction tropes of human expansion are more closely driven by western imperialist/"exploration" tropes. Hell we literally planted flags on the moon (and will probably do the same on Mars)

Any potential alien civilization need not necessarily have those same expansionist ideas.

 

[Thundercrack85]

But we are (at least, if this is referring to the exchange above) talking about the entire universe. This isn't an issue so much of us encountering, but of there existing period.

There could be countless types of alien life out there, and there probably are. But the notion that only one planet, in a universe with... 170 billion + galaxies, has life on it, sounds borderline religious to me.

 

[redhawk23]

But that's the whole "Paradox" in question isn't it, that it makes no sense that we haven't seen any evidence of the existence of alien civilizations.

I'm just saying it actually makes a lot of sense that even if there were ancient, hyper intelligent alien species, that we would likely never hear from them.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Well, we may disagree on the first part.

Yet somewhat agree on the latter.

 

[redhawk23]

Disagree? I'm just saying that's the question of the whole thread, that's what the "Fermi Paradox" is.

I'm just giving reasons why its not really a paradox.

 

[Thundercrack85]

No, I mean the "any evidence".

I disagree with that statement.

 

[RetrogradeOrbit]

Given the vastness of the cosmos. The number of galaxies, stars etc.

There are literally billions of other solar systems. It only needs the smallest percentage of these to have the appropriate conditions for water to exist in liquid form and give the chance for life as we know and understand it to evolve.

Plus, we can't discount the possibility of life evolving that does not follow our understanding of biology and chemistry.

So my guess is that there are millions of lifeforms out there. Of which some are almost certainly more advanced than we are.
At least I hope so. It's depressing to think we are the pinnacle of evolved life in the Universe.

But given the astronomical distances between solar systems, the possibility of ever knowing for sure that there is life elsewhere than Earth is pretty damned low.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

The search for answer to the question of life on worlds not our own is a noble quest. It's one I think any would find enriching, and I wish we spent more of our resources on such an endeavor, but from some of the posts here, I think the Buddha's advice about whether there is or is not an afterlife, an ultimate GOD and what the true origin of the universe and existence should also be considered.

 

[RetrogradeOrbit]

^^^
No disrespect intended....

I honestly do not see how this statement has any bearing upon the number of other lifeforms in the Universe.

 

[zeroapoc]

No, I mean the "any evidence".

I disagree with that statement.

But there isn't any...

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

^^^
No disrespect intended....

I honestly do not see how this statement has any bearing upon the number of other lifeforms in the Universe.

Basically the Buddha was asked once about the true origin and nature of the Universe and existence. The questioner assumed that as a holy man ole Siddhartha should have a concrete answer on this. The Buddha told the man that what he was doing was the equivalent of being a soldier in the middle of a war that has been shot by an arrow, that instead of seeking immediate medical attention asks to know everything about how this situation happened before seeing a doctor. What was the arrow made of? Who fashioned it? What town from the enemy's country did the shooter come from? And on and on... The Buddha was saying basically that those answers were not pointless, but were sort of besides the point when you have an arrow sticking out your body.

So too with this... Practically speaking, although it would be a monumental discovery, and it could even given the circumstances advance the science and culture of Earth, in the end... It would not change the nature of human life as radically as most think and it certainly wouldn't "solve" the true problems of humanities needs and nature.

I admit... I may have been a bit pedantic on this one.

 

[RetrogradeOrbit]

Thanks for the clarification... t:

 

[Dr.]

Possible solutions to the Fermi Paradox:

* We’re the first (someone has to be).
* Technologically advanced intelligence is very rare.
* Space is VERY BIG. So even if there are as many as 200 billion advanced societies in the Universe, that works out to 1 society per galaxy. I.e., we’re too far apart to know about each other.
* Space is VERY OLD. 99% of Earth species have gone instinct. If that pattern holds for humans and for alien civilizations, the odds of us overlapping during the same cosmological epoch might be very low.
* Alien intelligences have an ethic of non-interference (a “Prime Directive”).

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Possible solutions to the Fermi Paradox:

* We’re the first (someone has to be).
* Technologically advanced intelligence is very rare.
* Space is VERY BIG. So even if there are as many as 200 billion advanced societies in the Universe, that works out to 1 society per galaxy. I.e., we’re too far apart to know about each other.
* Space is VERY OLD. 99% of Earth species have gone instinct. If that pattern holds for humans and for alien civilizations, the odds of us overlapping during the same cosmological epoch might be very low.
* Alien intelligences have an ethic of non-interference (a “Prime Directive”).

I think a huge thing, if they are indeed out there in some shape or form, is to think about trying to make a call today with a cell phone from about 20 years ago or play a vinyl record on your Iphone.

 

[RetrogradeOrbit]

I have to say that I always wondered that, even at the time when they sent Voyager on its way.

Or did they include instructions on how to build a record player or perhaps stashed an actual record player within one of Voyagers compartments?

If it is the former, I just hope they didn't put the instructions on the LP...

 

[NickNitro]

I am serious. The universe is big. We have only been able to see a miniscule part of it...and most of that was the last couple of decades. It's like going to the middle of the Sahara desert and examining one square inch of it, and then if you don't find anything alive in that inch saying "Well, there's no life in the Sahara desert."

That actually wasn't aimed at you we posted at the same time ha.

One thing about this that a read up on and does make me think.

At our CURRENT technology it would take us roughly 50 million years to colonize the entire galaxy. Sure that's a long time, but nothing geologically, let alone astronomically. With a nearly 14 billion year old universe, if life is out there, why hasn't this happened?

What if we are the product of them colonizing the universe? What if they go around galaxy to galaxy and plant life on planets able to sustain biological life, possibly similar to their own planet? Now thats a mind ****.

Possible solutions to the Fermi Paradox:

* We’re the first (someone has to be).
* Technologically advanced intelligence is very rare.
* Space is VERY BIG. So even if there are as many as 200 billion advanced societies in the Universe, that works out to 1 society per galaxy. I.e., we’re too far apart to know about each other.
* Space is VERY OLD. 99% of Earth species have gone instinct. If that pattern holds for humans and for alien civilizations, the odds of us overlapping during the same cosmological epoch might be very low.
* Alien intelligences have an ethic of non-interference (a “Prime Directive&#8221.

That ones an interesting point. I never thought about it that way. Some believe that the big bang was the Universe resetting. That like some Atlantian type situation where species became soo advanced they ruined the universe and it all reset after some massive explosion.

 

[Thundercrack85]

But there isn't any...

I disagree. I think the extraterrestrial hypothesis for some UFO incidents / observations is worth considering.

To me this seems like the elephant in the room.

 

[Mr.M]

It's probable there is life out there on another planet in another solar system. I'd say it's likely. The problem is them finding us or us finding them. If the universe is near infinite then there are near infinite possibilities for another Earth-like system.

Of course the Fermi Paradox is assuming a lot in that context too. That there is a civilization so old and so capable of space travel we'd have had some contact with them.

What if there is an ancient race of people but they either have no desire or no reason to visit us or even leave their corner of the galaxy?

There are far too many assumptions on far too little data to make any certain statements about life outside this planet. We don't even know if some of the moons in our solar system host life (some hold potential) let alone what life can exist in another galaxy or even solar system in our galaxy.

I don't think we can rule out radio transmissions as mass interstellar communications for another 1500-3000 years. Take a spherical volume with a radius of 100 light years (Sun being the center point) and you probably have anywhere from 2000-10,000 stars in that sphere. If we are the only intelligent life in that radius, then there is an obvious reason why we haven't heard any signals. We've only been listening for a century.

Now take interstellar travel. Is it really possible to move biological life forms that far and that fast into space? Humans have no hope of acheiving this for another millenium at least. What is an organisms sustainable resource in space, and I'm not just talking about fuel sources? They would need to stop between solar systems and colonize for a bit. But like the Kryptonians, you eventually exhaust your limiting resource(s) and you can't travel any further. Or you die from radiation.

You could also construct mechanical Von Neumann probes that are capable of self replication and potentially guided by an AI. If these machines can be constructed and navigate through interstellar space, then the galaxy should be saturated with them. But again, maybe there too is a limiting resource (fuel, raw materials, etc).

If there is a Type III civ that can harvest the energy from stars, then such civs would colonize a galaxy like the Milky Way in a few million years. Milky Way has been around a lot longer than that. So where is this civ? Well, once again, limiting resources. While this civ can hop a dozen light years from here to there, can they make the massive 1-5 million light year trek to another galaxy? Plus how many Type III civilizations actually exist? Humans aren't even a type I as of yet (fushion, interplanetary, and other future technologies constitute these civs).

 

[moviedoors]

Some believe that the big bang was the Universe resetting. That like some Atlantian type situation where species became soo advanced they ruined the universe and it all reset after some massive explosion.

I'm sorry, but that sounds like unsupported nonsense.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Or the universe just goes through cycles.

 

[C. Lee]

Or the universe just goes through cycles.

Read some science fiction books on that idea, but not sure if there are any scientific theories about it.

 

[NickNitro]

I'm sorry, but that sounds like unsupported nonsense.

Thank you for putting me in my place.