The Foreign Policy Thread

DACrowe

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I read an interesting column, posted below, about how last week's victories may help the Israel-Palestine-Iran situation and realized there doesn't seem to be a good thread to put it in. We have an Iraq and an Afghanistan Thread. But what about a thread that can talk about the Russian Arms agreement last week? What about a thread that discusses Pakistan becoming more friendly in exchange for nation-building money?

***

Well here it is. It covers everything. I'll begin it with said article that gives an interesting perspective about how giving Netanyahuthe cold shoulder may help us in the long run, now that our president doesn't seem like Jimmy Carter. Or it could just push us to a stalemate which makes dealing with Iran near impossible. Interesting stuff..

LO, THE MIDDLE EAST MOVES

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/30/opinion/30iht-edcohen.html

BRUSSELS — The passage of the U.S. health care bill is a major foreign policy victory for President Barack Obama.

It empowers him by demonstrating his ability to deliver. Nowhere is that more important than in the Middle East.

All the global mutterings about the “Carterization” of Obama, and the talk (widespread in Israel) of kicking the can down the road and so getting through the “garbage time” of a one-term president — that is suddenly yesterday’s chatter.

The reminder was timely: This man is no softie. He’s a politician tough enough to watch his rivals auto-destruct on his cool, and principled enough to set the right long-term objectives, including “comprehensive diplomatic contacts and dialogue” with Iran, as he said in his second Nowruz, or New Year, greeting to Iranians.

It fell to Benjamin Netanyahu, the Israeli prime minister, to play the role Khrushchev once played in toughening a young American president.

The former Soviet leader thought he could browbeat Kennedy only to discover, in Vienna, that the Kennedy charm was not unalloyed to steel (“It will be a long, cold winter.”) Netanyahu was the first foreign leader to think he could steamroll Obama. He earned a frosty comeuppance.

The Israeli leader toyed with Obama’s unequivocal call in Cairo last June for a “stop” to Israeli settlements. He allowed the ill-timed announcement that 1,600 apartments for Jews will be built in East Jerusalem. Then, rather than scrap that, Netanyahu chose cheap cheers from the American Israel Public Affairs Committee with “Jerusalem is not a settlement.”

(I say cheap because everyone knows Jerusalem is not a settlement. That’s not the issue. The issue is that the Israeli annexation of East Jerusalem is rejected by the rest of the world and any peace agreement will involve an inventive deal on its status. To build is therefore to provoke.)

Obama was not amused. He airbrushed Netanyahu’s White House visit. The message was clear: The Middle East status quo does not serve the interests of the United States (or Israel). When Obama says “stop,” he does not mean “build a bit.”

Sometimes mistakes are needed. Through the law of unintended consequences they open new avenues.

So it is with the East Jerusalem housing fiasco. Nothing will happen in the Middle East unless the United States is seen as an honest broker able to criticize both sides when needed. Obama’s anger sped a needed clarification and freed debate.

As Andrew Sullivan has observed, a cultural shift is underway with respect to Israel: “The critics have been called ‘self-hating Jews’ if they are Jewish, or anti-Semites if they are not, but these barbs — once sufficient to end someone’s career — have failed to have an effect this time.”

Yes, indeed.

I can’t foretell the consequences of the Obama-Netanyahu spat, but it might speed a new, more centrist Israeli government including Kadima. That would help. It will bolster Obama next time he has to get tough with the Palestinians, who must curb incitement, renounce violence and clarify their end goals.

Obama’s stance has also demonstrated that his focus on Israel-Palestine will not be diverted by Netanyahu’s push to place the Iranian nuclear program front and center. This is critical: Iran cannot be a Palestine-postponing pawn.

Already, there are shifts in Israeli attitudes as a result of the new American clarity. Last year, Netanyahu described Iran’s leaders as “a messianic apocalyptic cult,” which was silly. Of late we’ve had Ehud Barak, the Israeli defense minister, setting things right: “I don’t think the Iranians, even if they got the bomb, are going to drop it in the neighborhood. They fully understand what might follow. They are radical but not total ‘meshuganas.’ They have a quite sophisticated decision-making process.”

Yes, as I’ve argued, the Iranian regime is not nuts, one reason it has survived. It’s intermittently ruthless — consistently since June 12 — but proceeds by calculation, much of it about survival. Moving from nuclear brinkmanship, a habit, to testing a weapon would be a high-risk endeavor involving the reverse-engineering of thousands of centrifuges.

Realism is needed all around. America cannot afford a third Muslim war. Israel cannot afford to open an unprecedented Persian front. The Arab world will always regard Israel as a bigger problem than Iran.

So there are no quick fixes. Deterrence and containment, which must be strengthened by U.S. bolstering of gulf state defenses, can defang Iran over time. They must be complemented by outreach to Tehran and a balanced U.S. push on Israel-Palestine.

Barak also got it right when he said that, absent a two-state solution, Israel would be “either non-Jewish or non-democratic.”

Obama is now insisting Israel act to avert that unhappy outcome. Americans, prodded by a report from Gen. David Petraeus, are beginning to see the link between terror recruitment and a festering Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Planning in Washington on Iran has shown a “marked shift in thinking away from the war strategy,” as Nicholas Burns, a former top State Department official, put it to me.

These are real shifts. They are prerequisites for the rapprochement with the Muslim world Obama rightly seeks. Lo, even the Middle East moves.
 
I'm having problems with our administration asking a fellow Democracy to move into negotiations with a government who's standing government is a terrorist group.

I haven't quite figured out a way to explain that...
 
Are you referring to the Fatah government or Hamas? Hamas are a terrorist group who have control over the Gaza STrip. But most of the west bank is controlled by the legally elected (and covertly US-supported-through-Bush-since 2006) Fatah Party, which has been moderate enough to be willing and likely to negotiate a two-state solution with Israel if the settlements in Jerusalem would stop, with US backing. Hamas is a terrorist group that simply wants to destroy the nation of Israel, as well as Fatah who they've been fighting with since Arafat died in 2005.
 
Hamas is gaining in the legislature in the West Bank.....IMO, if you want to play with Fatah, then you begin a propaganda push in the West Bank, hitting those that are very upset with the fighting between Fatah and Hamas in the West Bank. Because I can assure you, there is a propaganda push from Hamas in showing the dead in Gaza...their propaganda worked before, and it may end up working here. The US needs to show Fatah that they are willing to work with them to push out Hamas. What they are doing now IMO is only strengthening Hamas in the West Bank. It is strong there....the leader in the West Bank may be Fatah, but the people are seeing far more support from Hamas than Fatah. It is propaganda for sure, but perception wins the battle, that is exactly what happened in Gaza.

Main problem, Israel is not going to stop developing in East Jerusalem. They see the entire city as their capital, and believe they should be able to settle anywhere they want. In Gaza you have what are called "days of rage" speaking out against this continued problem in East Jerusalem, and even though Hamas and Fatah are not big friends in Gaza, they totally agree on their anger about this continued settlement, and that is going to of course spill over into the West Bank. You do not have a fully functioning strong government in Gaza or the West Bank, but you have a strong underlying influence from a terrorist group. Even though I think that Israel needs to chill on the settlement, if they balk at negotiations because of the strong terrorist influence, I can understand that....
 
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While I don't think Hamas has made much headway in the last several years of gaining legislative power in the West Bank, I agree their propaganda and terrorist conflict with Fatah is a huge problem. If Palestine could unite behind Fatah, we could have them back a two-state solution if Israel halted settlements and thereby create international pressure on Israel to comply. But Fatah cannot sign any provisionals with the US, UN or west with Hamas constantly challenging their legitimacy. Conversely, as long as their is that conflict Israel can turn their noses at Palestine and continue to build and create pressure that delegitmizes Fatah. Fatah to beat Hamas will ultimately need a two-state solution that includes Jerusalem, but Israel has no immediate reason to come to the table with Hamas creating unrest in the Gaza Strip. It is a Catch-22.

One would hope that Israel realizes that it cannot go to war with Iran without closing the source of most of the Arab hate for them from boiling over. Only if there is a Palestinian state would Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, et. al. consider pressuring Iran over Israel. But Israel just keeps chugging along with its rift with the Palestinians in its own state.


But this thread is for more than just Israel-Palestine. What about Russia or the goings-ons in Pakistan? I want to get a broad discussion going.
 
Well, the thing is.....the people of the Middle East, think in a total different world than we do.

I can assure, Israel does believe it can go to war with Iran.....they have history that shows they can go to war with a great number of Arab states, and do just fine.

Egypt won't say a word, the Saudis will "talk" and that is all, Jordan won't say a word, Syria will speak out, but with what power. Lebanon is still too involved in its own internal turmoil. Yemen is a scared little kid right now....Bahrain, Kuwait and Qatar will stay quiet because they are more than happy with their oil money rolling in and they don't want to piss the US off....

The US is the only country that can keep Israel from going after Iran, and after the "symbolic flipping off" from Israel to our top 3 people in our nation, I'm not sure we could stop it.

I think there IS MUCH HATRED of Israel by the other Arab states, but I think they are far more selfish than they are angered by Israel. Hell Jordan right now is in conflict internally because of Palestinian refugees....and its not an anger that is in favor of Palestinians...
 
Well, the thing is.....the people of the Middle East, think in a total different world than we do.

I can assure, Israel does believe it can go to war with Iran.....they have history that shows they can go to war with a great number of Arab states, and do just fine..

Israel is betting on the fact that if it attacks another country, US will be there on its side and funnelling billions of dollars of military aid to the country. Although initally I can see US helping, it will not get strapped down in aiding Israel at the extend it is now if the war persists over three years. Israel cannot support a prolonged military conflict like the US can.

I also don't agree that the other Muslim countries (Iraq, Bahrain, Azerbaijan, Lebanon's Hezbollah specifically) will stay idle in a war b/w Iran and Israel. Furthermore, Israel will also have to deal with thousands of Shia recruits from India, Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan, and possible recruits from Sunni militant Al-Qaeda groups.

During this conflict, the only people who will benefit from this war is Russia and China.

--

The article mentioned:

"Already, there are shifts in Israeli attitudes as a result of the new American clarity. Last year, Netanyahu described Iran’s leaders as “a messianic apocalyptic cult,” which was silly. Of late we’ve had Ehud Barak, the Israeli defense minister, setting things right: “I don’t think the Iranians, even if they got the bomb, are going to drop it in the neighborhood. They fully understand what might follow. They are radical but not total ‘meshuganas.’ They have a quite sophisticated decision-making process.”

This is exactly what I have been talking about. Even the Isreaeli Defense Minister knows that Iran is not that stupid to attack Israel considering all the massive damange an errant bomb might cause to neighboring Arab states.

The fear that Iran will start a nuclear war in the Middle East is just a fear tactic in the same regards as Obama turning the US into a communist state.

The ONLY reason the US does not like the Iranian regime is because it doesn't play by US/Euro rules. US/Europe controls geo-politics in most of the Middle East. Nuclear energy for Iran means the expansion of urban sprawl, and more technological advances that might make Iran a geo-political contender.

This new power will then compete with American interests in the Middle East, Central Asia, and South Asia. The more Iran is bullied and pressured by sanctions, the more Russia and China will creep in and lend them a hand.

The real power players in this high-stakes game are:

US/Europe vs Russia/China
 
I think the Middle East is a far different place than it was in the 60s and 70s....sorry, but I think the oil rich countries are far more selfish than they are loyal to their religion. Yes, I can see groups of people FROM those countries fighting, AND I COULD BE WRONG OF COURSE, but I don't think the governments would officially move to the defense of Iran.


As far as as US/Europe vs. Russia/China....that will happen, not sure with this particular issue, but I see that in our future.
 
I think the Middle East is a far different place than it was in the 60s and 70s....sorry, but I think the oil rich countries are far more selfish than they are loyal to their religion. Yes, I can see groups of people FROM those countries fighting, AND I COULD BE WRONG OF COURSE, but I don't think the governments would officially move to the defense of Iran.

Ofcourse. That all depends on Israel's measure of attack. If its a tactical strike on some nuclear energy sites (with minimal civilian casualty); followed by some minor condemnation by Europe/UN; the usual complacent acknowledgement by the US, this debacle can work in favor of US/Euro interests.

The only wildcard is Ahmadinejad. They have missiles capable of hitting Israeli and US targets, but its highly unlikely that Iran would be that successful in punishing Israel. Especially after all the missile defense shields they (US) have been setting up around the Middle East, as well as the availability of naval assistance. Iran's nuclear option is out of the question anyways.


As far as as US/Europe vs. Russia/China....that will happen, not sure with this particular issue, but I see that in our future.

In all likelihood in this Israel-Iran case, Russia and China won't be able to stop or deter the US/Euro duo from doing what they want. But they still have plenty of pull and push in Eastern Europe, Eurasia, Central Asia, and South America, and Southeast Asia.
 
Don't forget North Africa and Central Africa...
 
In all likelihood in this Israel-Iran case, Russia and China won't be able to stop or deter the US/Euro duo from doing what they want. But they still have plenty of pull and push in Eastern Europe, Eurasia, Central Asia, and South America, and Southeast Asia.

I doubt that all of South America would be on board with the United States and Europe favoring Iran sanctions, even if Iran launches an atomic weapon in the heart of Jerusalem. Venezuela, Bolivia and Ecuador would all be on Iran's side because they hate the United States. Brazil though has stated that they would strongly oppose Iran if their nuclear ambitions are to wipe Israel off the face of the Earth.
 
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But I bet Ecuador loves those American tourists...
 
Again, the nuclear option is out of the question. Even if Iran had them, they would not think of ever using them.
 
DRONE ATTACKS INCREASE TO ALMOST DAILY IN PAKISTAN

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/05/world/asia/05drones.html?hp

PESHAWAR, Pakistan — A stepped-up campaign of American drone strikes over the past three months has battered Al Qaeda and its Pakistani and Afghan brethren in the tribal area of North Waziristan, according to a mid-ranking militant and supporters of the government there.

The strikes have cast a pall of fear over an area that was once a free zone for Al Qaeda and the Taliban, forcing militants to abandon satellite phones and large gatherings in favor of communicating by courier and moving stealthily in small groups, they said.

The drones, operated by the C.I.A., fly overhead sometimes four at a time, emitting a beelike hum virtually 24 hours a day, observing and tracking targets, then unleashing missiles on their quarry, they said.

The strikes have sharpened tensions between the local tribesmen and the militants, who have dumped bodies with signs accusing the victims of being American spies in Miram Shah, the main town in North Waziristan, they said.

....


By all reports, the bombardment of North Waziristan, and to a lesser extent South Waziristan, has become fast and furious since a combined Taliban and Qaeda suicide attack on a C.I.A. base in Khost, in southern Afghanistan, in late December.

...

While unpopular among the Pakistani public, the drone strikes have become a weapon of choice for the Obama administration after the Pakistani Army rebuffed pleas to mount a ground offensive in North Waziristan to take on the militants who use the area to strike at American and NATO forces in Afghanistan.

The Pakistani military says it is already overstretched fighting militants on other fronts. But the militants in North Waziristan — the Haqqani network backed by Al Qaeda — are also longtime allies of Pakistan’s military and intelligence services. The group may yet prove useful for Pakistan to exert influence in postwar Afghanistan.

Fascinating.
 
Quite possibly the most import story on foreign policy this year.........
http://www.france24.com/en/20100407-nkorea-leader-sets-world-fashion-trend-pyongyang
N.Korea leader sets world fashion trend: Pyongyang

Created 07/04/2010 - 12:31
The trademark suit sported by North Korean leader Kim Jong-Il is now in fashion worldwide thanks to his greatness, Pyongyang's official website said Wednesday.
Uriminzokkiri, quoting an article in communist party newspaper Rodong Sinmun, said the modest-looking suits have gripped people's imagination and become a global vogue.
"The reason is that the august image of the Great General, who is always wearing the modest suit while working, leaves a deep impression on people's mind in the world," it said.
"To sum it up, that is because his image as a great man is so outstanding."
The article quoted an unidentified French fashion expert as saying world fashion follows Kim Jong-Il's style.
"Kim Jong-Il mode which is now spreading expeditiously worldwide is something unprecedented in the world's history," the stylist was quoted as saying.
The suits consist of an overall-style zipped-up tunic and matching trousers, usually in khaki or blueish-grey.
The 68-year-old leader wears them even when receiving foreign dignitaries.
During his outside "field guidance" trips in winter, he also dons a shapeless anorak and fur hat.
Kim and his deceased father Kim Il-Sung are at the heart of a personality cult that borders on religion, with near-magical powers ascribed to the younger Kim.
Rainbows supposedly appeared over sacred Mount Paekdu where Kim Jong-Il was allegedly born, and he is said once to have scored 11 holes-in-one in a single round of golf.
 
As I am sure everyone heard the nuclear strategy or what is quickly becoming called part of the "Obama Doctrine," yesterday announced by the White House.

Well here is an interesting piece on it.
NUCLEAR STRATEGY IN NEW "OBAMA DOCTRINE" MAY BE PART OF A GLOBAL EFFORT TO "TIGHTEN NOOSE" AROUND IRAN

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/07/world/07arms.html?ref=politics

Very interesting, to say the least. I like the new rules being put in place, but worldwide dismantling of nuclear weapons is a pipe dream, I am afraid to say.
 
I like the new rules being put in place, but worldwide dismantling of nuclear weapons is a pipe dream, I am afraid to say.
Call me naive, but i wish to live in a world where no country has nuclear weapons. Yes, a girl can dream, damn it! :argh: :hehe:
 
Let's hope this proposal is better than the Camp David proposal instigated by Clinton w/Barak and Arafat.

That one was pretty much a prison for Palestinians; 200 scatterred territories, virtually separated, and their connections controlled by the Israelis where they had access to block any portion at will. Enough of this Bantustan policy of divide and conquer.

US is the major power player here and it needs to fix this conflict.
 
NUCLEAR SUMMIT LEADS TO US-RUSSIA REDUCING NUCLEAR MATERIALS THAT COULD MAKE 17,000 BOMBS, REMOVAL OF ALL NUCLEAR MATERIALS IN UKRANE

http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/04/13/obama.hu.nuclear.meeting/index.html?hpt=Sbin

I'm sure the last month is just "amateur hour" to the right. :rolleyes:

In one year he has done more to gain international support and cooperation than Bush did in eight years. But he is surely making us less safe, though.
 

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