Tony Leung IS The Mandarin

[Another_Fool]

Awesome! Thanks for those. Interesting, a 4 hour movie, huh lol. I've only seen Hero, but that was so long ago I don't remember it. Didn't realize he was in that. I was also recommended Flashpoint. Lots of movies to watch!

Flash Point is a fun watch but Tony Leung isn't in that so maybe the person who recommended that to you was mistaken. It has Donnie Yen though so still a recommended watch.

 

[Mellie]

Flash Point is a fun watch but Tony Leung isn't in that so maybe the person who recommended that to you was mistaken. It has Donnie Yen though so still a recommended watch.

Oh whoops, you're right Was mixing up action films in general.

 

[Mike Murdock]

@Another_Fool

I wouldn't say offended, but I have a problem with them using a Fu Manchu/Mandarin amalgam. I think just the concept of him being Shang Chi's father and the leader of an international criminal organisation is a significant parallel. I think what lends credence to the possibility of it aging badly Feige is already doing interviews assuring people Fu Manchu's not in the film, yet the comparisons are obvious.

I think there's clear allusions to Fu Manchu's character, sure, but they removed pretty all the problematic aspects. I thought it was a good compromise. I actually thought they could have gone further and said something in the "I've been called many names" thing where they alluded to the idea that an English author tried to write stories inspired by his myth.

I think your argument would have to be that he can't be Shang-Chi's dad or, at least, he can't have been long-lived? Is there anything in this presentation judged based on what's actually here that's problematic or is it just that there was a character who is a huge problem and that character was Shang-Chi's father and this movie also uses a character who is Shang-Chi's father?

On the matter of Fu Manchu. . . okay, I would argue that the reason we still talk about him and not 99% of the other Yellow Peril villains, is because unlike the rest he actually has a nugget of good concept underneath. Within the context of his original fictional material, he's an incarnation of the genre that tries to take the concept seriously ( unintentionally or not ), rather than just being a strawman to show how twisted and dastardly Chinese people are. He's competent, he has an understandable motivation, and while you technically don't want to see his ( ruthless and horrible ) plans succeed, you kind of do want to see more *of him*, because he's interesting, moreso than the heroes of the stories. Which is why there are a fair number of characters created with the premise "Okay, what if we take Fu Manchu, and strip out the Yellow Peril imagery baggage even more so that its just the good stuff?"

I tend to agree. I've never read the Sax Romer stories and probably never will, but the Fu Manchu of Master of Kung Fu is compelling and terrifying. Honestly, the biggest thing wrong is Marvel's stupid coloring decisions. There's much of that character that is salvageable if you do so carefully without any yellow peril tropes (honestly, having his son oppose him, by itself, undercuts those tropes. The original story was the white hero vs. Dr. Fu Manchu, which is a very different dynamic).

 

[Temur]

Fu Manchu is the prototype for virtually all modern intellectual supervillains. Most intellectual supervillains are basically whitewashed Fu Manchu. He's more than "salvageable", he's the equivalent of the black Rock and Roll creators who predated Elvis but who were never allowed to achieve his level of fame. The irony of banishing him is that Asian actors don't get to play the juicey villain rolls of characters who are just whitewashed Fu Manchu.

 

[JB33]

Fu Manchu is the prototype for virtually all modern intellectual supervillains. Most intellectual supervillains are basically whitewashed Fu Manchu. He's more than "salvageable", he's the equivalent of the black Rock and Roll creators who predated Elvis but who were never allowed to achieve his level of fame. The irony of banishing him is that Asian actors don't get to play the juicey villain rolls of characters who are just whitewashed Fu Manchu.

Totally agree, and this is why identity politics is so toxic. The mental gymnastics it makes people do inevitably ends up making them go backwards sometimes.

 

[metaphysician]

Eh, I think the bigger issue, in this case, has little or nothing to do with "identity politics", it has to do with the Chinese government simply not wanting Chinese villains, period.

 

[JB33]

Eh, I think the bigger issue, in this case, has little or nothing to do with "identity politics", it has to do with the Chinese government simply not wanting Chinese villains, period.

Probably, but honestly the CCP can go eff themselves. Evil scumbags who shouldn't be catered to.

 

[metaphysician]

Probably, but honestly the CCP can go eff themselves. Evil scumbags who shouldn't be catered to.

Oh, absolutely. Its just, you need to be willing to turn down the theoretically-large payday of a Chinese theatrical release to do so. I kind of suspect that the increasingly egregious behavior on the part of the CCP is making that an easier decision, mind. On a pure pragmatic-greed level, kowtowing to the Chinese Communist Party doesn't look like such a good investment if you have to go to such levels as to guarantee controversy at best elsewhere in the world, only to stand a strong chance of not getting to release in China anyway.

 

[Chris B]

Its just a small nitpick but I do wish that they hadn't completely disregarded the notion of The Mandarin as a title that Wenwu used at least at some point. I get why they did it and never expected it to be used as anything more as an Easter egg, but since the title has an actual historical basis and not just something Stan Lee made up on the fly, I feel like it still could've been used in some capacity.

 

[JB33]

Its just a small nitpick but I do wish that they hadn't completely disregarded the notion of The Mandarin as a title that Wenwu used at least at some point. I get why they did it and never expected it to be used as anything more as an Easter egg, but since the title has an actual historical basis and not just something Stan Lee made up on the fly, I feel like it still could've been used in some capacity.

Wokeness will prevent Marvel from ever being that faithful to the comics. It's unfortunate but it is what it is.

 

[eon001]

SPOILERS





Are we ok with bringing Wenwu back, or should he stay gone?

Personally I think he should absolutely come back, and I'd even go as far as to say he isn't dead.

Here is an idea. After Shang defeats the dark beast, all the consumed souls return to the bodies from where they were taken. Wenwu and the death dealer sneak out of Talo and rebuild covertly.

 

[metaphysician]

Spoiler: Thoughts

Rebuild? No. He had his moment of truth when he sacrificed his life for the sake of his son and to make up for his egregious mistake. If by the grace of God he survives that anyway, he *should* be a changed man. Just a quiet man living out his remaining years in a quiet corner, allowing his family their peace. At least, until something comes up that forces him to return to the world of the living, for the sake of said family.

 

[Mike Murdock]

I don't expect him to come back and I probably wouldn't want him back. There's clearly a natural follow up anyway.

 

[Silvermoth]

Yes they finally did mandarin right. I am very happy to call him Shang Chi’s nemesis instead of Iron Man’s. Tony can have Obadiah as his nemesis

 

[HammerDown]

Solid villain. Inherently evil but also sympathetic.
Enjoyed those shades of grey about the character.

 

[chintai80]

easily one of the top mcu villains.
possibly right next to thanos, imo.

 

[Deck Rickard]

Yeah, I would probably list my top 3 MCU villains as:

1. Thanos
2. Loki (I know he’s more of an antihero now but he was still a villain through at least the first half of Ragnarok)
3. Wenwu

That’s how I would rank them now but they’re probably interchangeable. The margins are razor thin because they’re all so good.

 

[Dr. Evil]

I am happy that the MCU changed his father to the Mandarin because Fu Manchu has always been controversial, even long before that character showed up in the comics.

 

[BarryAllen]

I am happy that the MCU changed his father to the Mandarin because Fu Manchu has always been controversial, even long before that character showed up in the comics.

I feel like the old school Asian characters like Fu Manchu and Charlie Chan are ripe for a revival, if done right. If we can shine off the rough edges of things like Sherlock Holmes, Jungle Book, Tarzan, James Bond - what is stopping a better take on these characters?

Fu Manchu can be played as a straight warlord terrorist or Bond supervillain, there's room for interpretation. The lore around him is super cool, with his ninja dacoit cult the Si-Fan, and Fah Lo Suee, his daughter. I felt the original Master of Kung Fu run does a really good job of fleshing out the groundwork laid by Sax Rohmer.

And what's wrong with the "Zheng Zhu" name Marvel gave him?

 

[Dark Raven]

I feel like the old school Asian characters like Fu Manchu and Charlie Chan are ripe for a revival, if done right. If we can shine off the rough edges of things like Sherlock Holmes, Jungle Book, Tarzan, James Bond - what is stopping a better take on these characters?

Fu Manchu can be played as a straight warlord terrorist or Bond supervillain, there's room for interpretation. The lore around him is super cool, with his ninja dacoit cult the Si-Fan, and Fah Lo Suee, his daughter. I felt the original Master of Kung Fu run does a really good job of fleshing out the groundwork laid by Sax Rohmer.

And what's wrong with the "Zheng Zhu" name Marvel gave him?

Because Fu Manchu and Charlie Chan are inherently racist characters and even the mere names of them have become racist slurs used to mock anyone vaguely Asian.

If people wanted an Asian sleuth then invent a new one without all of that negative history behind it like Charlie Chan has. Otherwise it's just inviting people to start using that name again as a racist taunt. And if you want a Chinese super villain then invent a new one and not one steeped in Yellow Peril. We don't need to revive those stereotypes.

Why should Hollywood open the door again for Asians to be called Charlie Chan or Fu Manchu by a new generation, or enable the older generations to now legitimize racist terms that had fallen out of favour?

And if you were going to argue that you can just change the names then what would be the point of using those characters in the first place?

 

[BarryAllen]

Because Fu Manchu and Charlie Chan are inherently racist characters and even the mere names of them have become racist slurs used to mock anyone vaguely Asian.

I don't think Charlie Chan is a malicious character at all, he was literally created to subvert Yellow Peril tropes.

If people wanted an Asian sleuth then invent a new one without all of that negative history behind it like Charlie Chan has. Otherwise it's just inviting people to start using that name again as a racist taunt. And if you want a Chinese super villain then invent a new one and not one steeped in Yellow Peril. We don't need to revive those stereotypes.

Tarzan's books were pretty racist, and yet they've managed to adapt the character numerous times.

James Bond, Jungle Book, etc all get reinvented and adapted, why can't Charlie Chan (or even Fu Manchu?)

Why should Hollywood open the door again for Asians to be called Charlie Chan or Fu Manchu by a new generation, or enable the older generations to now legitimize racist terms that had fallen out of favour?

And if you were going to argue that you can just change the names then what would be the point of using those characters in the first place?

Reclaiming. New stories are important but also using classic legacy characters has it's place. And Hollywood will always take a known quantity over a new "asian detective" or whatever story.

Charlie Chan would be fun to adapt as a movie. Benedict Wong should be cast, and tone down the broken english. Have the dynamic be 1st gen immigrant Charlie and 2nd gen Number 1 Son Lee Chan (from the original serials) and set in Hawaii or where-ever. Could be fun.

We got Sherlock Holmes and Hercules Poirot, why not another classic detective?

 

[BarryAllen]

Maybe this is relitigating a dead topic (probably because a Shang-Chi movie was probably the last real chance for a Fu Manchu revival - maybe until the character goes full public domain), and Fu Manchu wasn't included in the movie - but in an alternate universe, I think it's possible to have adapted the character and shine off the rough edges.

Make him a mix of a terrorist warlord and Bond villain - an outcast of the Manchu dynasty - who hates China, America, etc.

You could've even replaced Dennis Nayland Smith with an Asian (Chinese) character who recruits Shang-Chi to fight against Fu Manchu, while still retaining the father vs son dynamic. Would've been less East vs West and more of a kung fu Bond.

"God save Fu Manchu, Moriarty and Dracula." - Village Green Preservation Society