Daredevil Was dissolving Nelson & Murdock the right thing to do?

[dmcreif]

I know Matt wasn't being reliable, but breaking up Nelson & Murdock, was that the right thing to do or not? I feel there's no "yes" or "no" answer here and while I understand the reasons the firm fell apart, I also feel the three of them could've toughed it and out and tried to soldier on even after everything that happened in the season up to that point.

 

[Random490]

I kind of wished it didn't, but Matt's double life and Karen being an investigator was wearing thin. I'm glad they're willing to change up the status quo like that.

Before Defenders I was picturing Matt receiving an inheritance from Elektra and using that to continue the law firm with a new staff.

 

[KevTravels]

I'm sure by end of season 3 they get together again as partners

 

[TheVileOne]

I think in terms of storytelling they did it too early. I would've waited for season 3 or doing a born again story to try something like that.

 

[the gael]

I'm sure they did it to launch their version of the Born Again storyline for season 3. Then, when Matt will rebuilt his life, Nelson and Murdock will reopen. As for Karen, on the other hand, I don't know. She will probably continue her reporter job. Wouldn't mind if, when rebuilt, Nelson and Murdock engage a new secretary... Would love to see Becky Blake

 

[Mike Murdock]

Honestly, while the law firm had dissolved in the comics as well by Born Again, doing it in the show has made Born Again harder because it doesn't establish Matt's life the way it needs to be established. The Kingpin has to ruin it while it's pretty close to rock bottom as is.

 

[Whatupman]

Only if they do Born Again in season 3, which hopefully they won't do. Better off saving that for season 4.

 

[TheVileOne]

I'm sure they did it to launch their version of the Born Again storyline for season 3. Then, when Matt will rebuilt his life, Nelson and Murdock will reopen. As for Karen, on the other hand, I don't know. She will probably continue her reporter job. Wouldn't mind if, when rebuilt, Nelson and Murdock engage a new secretary... Would love to see Becky Blake

Foggy seems to be happy doing his own thing for Jeryn Hogarth now.

 

[dmcreif]

Honestly, while the law firm had dissolved in the comics as well by Born Again, doing it in the show has made Born Again harder because it doesn't establish Matt's life the way it needs to be established. The Kingpin has to ruin it while it's pretty close to rock bottom as is.

They could just have Fisk start by ruining Foggy's life.

 

[dmcreif]

I'm sure they did it to launch their version of the Born Again storyline for season 3. Then, when Matt will rebuilt his life, Nelson and Murdock will reopen. As for Karen, on the other hand, I don't know. She will probably continue her reporter job. Wouldn't mind if, when rebuilt, Nelson and Murdock engage a new secretary... Would love to see Becky Blake

With Karen, it's a tough call. I'd love to see her come back to her old job because the image of Matt, Karen and Foggy as a kicking ass law trio under one roof is very iconic and I would give anything to see it again. It is hard to imagine the office without her, and no one could match Karen in being the glue that holds the office together.

But on the other hand, the reporter job feels like it was tailor-made for someone as inquisitive as Karen. She says as much at the diner in the beginning of The Defenders that working at the Bulletin feels like what she’s meant to be doing. Investigative journalism is something Karen has a talent for, and where that takes her career is more interesting than having her stay Matt and Foggy's secretary. And there's possibly more mileage to be gained when you don't have all three lead protagonists working under one roof and within ten feet of each other. So Daredevil hopefully will utilize Karen's strengths in journalism rather than backpedal her career to fit a status quo.

But the trio of Nelson, Murdock & Page working together is an iconic dynamic in the show, so hopefully *Daredevil* will find a new way for Karen to constantly be around Matt and Foggy, and helping them with cases as she comes into her own to fill Ben Urich's shoes.

There's also the fact that Karen is firmly established within the narrative to be Matt's main love interest. It would actually be a bit of an issue for Karen to come back to Nelson & Murdock if she's dating Matt, because of the imbalance of two co-workers dating in a three-person law firm. Besides Matt is more moral and righteous than Jeri Hogarth.


On a related note, Charlie Cox has said on the Con circuit over the last year that the lessons Matt learns in The Defenders will carry over into Daredevil season 3, and two that hopefully stick are A) that he finally realizes that it's wrong to unnecessarily withhold important information from those he cares about and make unilateral decisions without their input, so he needs to be open and honest with Karen and Foggy, and B) he finally realizes that he only makes things worse by isolating himself from the people who know and love him.

 

[TheVileOne]

They could just have Fisk start by ruining Foggy's life.

Once again you have to build Matt back up if you want to adapt that story.

 

[Mike Murdock]

They could just have Fisk start by ruining Foggy's life.

Which also would be an entirely different story. The point of Born Again is Matt's breakdown and depression in response to his life being systematically dismantled.

 

[dmcreif]

Foggy seems to be happy doing his own thing for Jeryn Hogarth now.

I think in the future, though, we'll see Foggy come to miss the sort of work he did with Matt.

 

[dmcreif]

I'm sure they did it to launch their version of the Born Again storyline for season 3. Then, when Matt will rebuilt his life, Nelson and Murdock will reopen. As for Karen, on the other hand, I don't know. She will probably continue her reporter job. Wouldn't mind if, when rebuilt, Nelson and Murdock engage a new secretary... Would love to see Becky Blake

As I said, it's something I'm torn about. I would like to see Karen come back to Nelson & Murdock, but at the same time, the Bulletin job feels like something more suited to her skills. I mean, if Nelson & Murdock is to get back together, what would we expect, another secretary? Or will they have no secretary at all? Yes, there are journalists who work two jobs, but it doesn’t seem like the path Karen is intending to take.

 

[dmcreif]

I kind of wished it didn't, but Matt's double life and Karen being an investigator was wearing thin. I'm glad they're willing to change up the status quo like that.

Before Defenders I was picturing Matt receiving an inheritance from Elektra and using that to continue the law firm with a new staff.

I do kinda hope that Nelson & Murdock get their awesome reputation back, Karen and Foggy quit their jobs to come back to the firm, everyone's happy, no one's mad, blah blah blah.

 

[dmcreif]

Once again you have to build Matt back up if you want to adapt that story.

Key word is "adaptation". Fisk targeting Foggy would be a great way to make it personal for Matt. Foggy's life is also a little too perfect at this point in time.

 

[TheVileOne]

We'll see how they do it. It will have to be pretty different going off of where things were left.

But a big part of the appeal of Born Again was Kingpin systematically destroying Matt's life piece by piece and Matt sort of having to overcome it like a phoenix rising from the ashes. Also, I know it's probably tougher to do now, but one of the best aspects of the story was seeing Karen hit rock bottom. You see how such information that Karen sold off eventually makes its way to the Kingpin and then Kingpin uses that to take Matt's life apart.

And even through all that Matt still forgives Karen. I thought that was pretty powerful. I think it says a lot about Matt that he never judged or held Karen accountable for those things. Karen became a drug addict who sold off her ex-boyfriend's secret for a drug fix, and Matt never hated or resented her for that.

I think the major problem is that it seems unlikely Karen would ever reach that dark, pit she was when we see her at the start of Born Again.

Now based on previous references, it's possible Karen might've been in a similar situation before the start of Daredevil S1. Ben Urich makes references to Karen's past. Her editor, Ellis, I think reveals he knows her secret. It sounded like Karen's brother probably died in a drunk driving accident, or Karen might've been high and was driving in the accident where her brother was killed.

 

[dmcreif]

We'll see how they do it. It will have to be pretty different going off of where things were left.

But a big part of the appeal of Born Again was Kingpin systematically destroying Matt's life piece by piece and Matt sort of having to overcome it like a phoenix rising from the ashes. Also, I know it's probably tougher to do now, but one of the best aspects of the story was seeing Karen hit rock bottom. You see how such information that Karen sold off eventually makes its way to the Kingpin and then Kingpin uses that to take Matt's life apart.

And even through all that Matt still forgives Karen. I thought that was pretty powerful. I think it says a lot about Matt that he never judged or held Karen accountable for those things. Karen became a drug addict who sold off her ex-boyfriend's secret for a drug fix, and Matt never hated or resented her for that.

I think the major problem is that it seems unlikely Karen would ever reach that dark, pit she was when we see her at the start of Born Again.

Now based on previous references, it's possible Karen might've been in a similar situation before the start of Daredevil S1. Ben Urich makes references to Karen's past. Her editor, Ellis, I think reveals he knows her secret. It sounded like Karen's brother probably died in a drunk driving accident, or Karen might've been high and was driving in the accident where her brother was killed.

Whatever the show comes up with, I hope they don’t go the junkie porn star route. It has lots of dramatic potential, but...just no. They’ve dropped plenty of hints that Karen's past involves violence, and I don’t want to see sex combined with that violence. That was Frank Miller being edgy for the sake of being edgy, and that's speaking nicely about Frank Miller, who is a known sexist.

At best, I can buy Karen having a drug addiction in the past. She says she played basketball in high school, so it could've start completely innocently, with a sports injury and a painkiller prescription, and one thing led to another...

 

[mightiest_mortal]

Yep, because until they can sort out Foggy then he can just stay away from the show. I'm getting so tired of their usual exchanges -

: Matt, there are other people in the world you know, people that care about you and don't think you should be putting yourself in danger.
: I've just saved like 20 peoples lives.. including a kid who was probably going to end up raped somewhere..
: I don't care about your excuses Matt, This "action junkie" business has to stop, you're hurting your friends. I had to go to court by myself today.
: ...Are you serious? I.. I've spent 2 whole seasons now just trying to save peoples lives. I saved a whole hospital from killer undead ninjas.
: Oh my god Matt, don't you ever think about anyone else?
: LITERALLY going to sacrifice myself to save the whole ****ing city
: So selfish. Typical Matt. I'm done with you Matt
: serious? you're serious? WTF is wrong with you FFS

 

[dmcreif]

I would assume they're going to make Karen and Foggy become more accepting of Matt's secret identity come season 3.

 

[pixen]

To them right now, he's dead. We shall see what happens...

 

[dmcreif]

To them right now, he's dead. We shall see what happens...

Sure, and what becomes of the firm afterwards is also a mystery. I mean, Nelson & Murdock should reform, probably out of the same office space just for the sake of it. Whether or not Karen comes back is still unknown. She's a wildcard here, because like I've made clear already, I can't imagine Nelson & Murdock without Karen, and I also can't imagine Karen walking away from the Bulletin unless she was certain it was the right thing to do.

 

[pixen]

It's probably closed as Foggy is at the prestigious law firm and Karen is writing right now.

 

[dmcreif]

It's probably closed as Foggy is at the prestigious law firm and Karen is writing right now.

The question is, do you think they'll be willing to come back to the old firm once Matt comes back?

 

[pixen]

Maybe Foggy but probably not Karen. Both are doing better, more successful things now though so who knows.