What is the best Spy network in the MCU? Hydra, Wakandan War Dogs, 10 Rings, or SHIELD.

[eon001]

MCU only, not comics.
I'm going off the top of my head so I might have some details wrong. Feel free to add and correct.

Hydra - Made public in WW2 but may have existed as far back as the 1920's.

SHIELD - Post WW2, 1940's/1950's

The 10 Rings - A thousand year old organisation

Wakandan War dogs - Now Nate Moore said in an interview that Wakandans have infiltrated every major country to redirect any potential interest they would have in Wakanda, which means they could have been infiltrating as far back as medieval times maybe even further back.

I would assume the longer institution has been around, the greater the advantage. But I feel 10 Rings might have the edge as they are all about control and domination. Wakanda was more on protection and redirection.

 

[Batmannerism]

MCU only, not comics.
I'm going off the top of my head so I might have some details wrong. Feel free to add and correct.

Hydra - Made public in WW2 but may have existed as far back as the 1920's.

SHIELD - Post WW2, 1940's/1950's

The 10 Rings - A thousand year old organisation

Wakandan War dogs - Now Nate Moore said in an interview that Wakandans have infiltrated every major country to redirect any potential interest they would have in Wakanda, which means they could have been infiltrating as far back as medieval times maybe even further back.

I would assume the longer institution has been around, the greater the advantage. But I feel 10 Rings might have the edge as they are all about control and domination. Wakanda was more on protection and redirection.

Bro, you forgot the Black Widows ( and the Winter Soldier working for Hydra) and Sword.....and the Madripoor underworld....have AIM shown up yet ?
Technically the sorcerors of Kamar Taj are also a secret society, although a benevolent one.

TBH there are too ****ing many shadowy secret
Societies pulling the strings. The MCU is getting crowded.

I don't begrudge the 10 rings too much as they were set up in Iron Man, but the Mandarin beating up Romans puts them at at least 1500-2000 years old - and is dumb as ****! Think about it, As a secret organization bent on gaining as much power as possible, they kind of suck, I mean if you gave the Red Skull that amount of time he'd have conquered the Earth and have Nazi bases on ****ing Mars.

Honestly, the Wakanda war dog idea is also one of the dumber ones - if you stop and think about potential barriers to them infiltrating North America, Europe and Asia for a few moments, I think you'll be able to see a fairly obvious reason why they could not do so until the 20th century, in some cases the late 20th century.

Infiltrating other African countries, no problem, but other places, well....

My all time least favorite would have to be the Black Widows. Anyone who has a control system that can be defeated by headbutting a table, is never going to accomplish much.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Yeah I would say that the colonial era and the various degrees of segregation any Wakandans would face in a post slave trade world would blunt their abilities to infiltrate until at least the 1970's.

 

[Batmannerism]

Yeah I would say that the colonial era and the various degrees of segregation any Wakandans would face in a post slave trade world would blunt their abilities to infiltrate until at least the 1970's.

That's what I was trying to say, without saying it.

Who knows, maybe MLK was Wakandan ?

I mean it's one thing to send out spies, but if you're a super secret country in a nondescript part of Africa doesn't that actually increase the risk of being discovered. I suppose they could warn you if trouble was coming, but if they were found out by a powerful enough person/agency/organisation and which was NOT looking for Wakanda in the first place, that entity might start thinking about doing so after capturing a Wakandan agent.

Damn that was a terrible explanation. Sorry everyone- feel like I've done a Black Widow and headbutted a table.

Wow, that just gets dumber every time I see it !

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

That's what I was trying to say, without saying it.

Who knows, maybe MLK was Wakandan ?

I mean it's one thing to send out spies, but if you're a super secret country in a nondescript part of Africa doesn't that actually increase the risk of being discovered. I suppose they could warn you if trouble was coming, but if they were found out by a powerful enough person/agency/organisation and which was NOT looking for Wakanda in the first place, that entity might start thinking about doing so after capturing a Wakandan agent.

Damn that was a terrible explanation. Sorry everyone- feel like I've done a Black Widow and headbutted a table.

Wow, that just gets dumber every time I see it !

On the other hand... Money makes a world of difference. Maybe the Wakandans used a front of sorts. Pay someone to do the monitoring for them or at least do the real human intel they would have a hard time doing when in Europe, the Americas and sadly even in Africa there were places that had apartheid policies and culture in place.

 

[Mjolnir Reborn]

My all time least favorite would have to be the Black Widows. Anyone who has a control system that can be defeated by headbutting a table, is never going to accomplish much.

The pheromone block wasn't the control system, that was just an extra layer of security for the leader and the Widows didn't seem to know about it. The actual control system was just hard indoctrination and training until the more recent point where they could chemically control them, which required a counter agent to break.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

Hydra co-founded S.H.I.E.L.D. and remained part of them for a very long time, so I'll leave you to guess which of the two is -in my view- a better spy network.

And a secret invasion is coming, if they go the Skrulls path instead of making a twist on it that makes it twice S.H.I.E.L.D. were infiltrated, and Skrulls also outsmarted Hydra at that since they came in the 90s.

 

[Fosterson]

I don't begrudge the 10 rings too much as they were set up in Iron Man, but the Mandarin beating up Romans

Sorry if this sounds stupid, but I don't remember Wenwu beating up Romans in the movie. I remember him attacking a fortress at the start, but I don't recall them looking like Romans.

As a secret organization bent on gaining as much power as possible, they kind of suck, I mean if you gave the Red Skull that amount of time he'd have conquered the Earth and have Nazi bases on ****ing Mars.

I guess maybe the reason Wenwu didn't conquer the whole world is:

A) because of the existence of other, more powerful superpowered beings
B) because aside from himself, none of his soldiers appear to have any powers or magical weapons.

Its all very well for Wenwu to come along and slaughter everyone with his rings, but he then needs his soldiers to garrison the empire and he can't be everywhere at once, meaning that rebellions will happen and things may fall apart relatively quickly.

 

[Fosterson]

I mean it's one thing to send out spies, but if you're a super secret country in a nondescript part of Africa doesn't that actually increase the risk of being discovered. I suppose they could warn you if trouble was coming, but if they were found out by a powerful enough person/agency/organisation and which was NOT looking for Wakanda in the first place, that entity might start thinking about doing so after capturing a Wakandan agent.

The Wakandans could solve that problem pretty easily by giving cyanide capsules to all of their spies.

 

[Fosterson]

Yeah I would say that the colonial era and the various degrees of segregation any Wakandans would face in a post slave trade world would blunt their abilities to infiltrate until at least the 1970's.

I guess that even on slave plantations, they could still find out some useful information? Even if it was just second-hand hearsay?

 

[Batmannerism]

Respectfully, I must disagree with pretty much everything you've said:

The Wakandans could solve that problem pretty easily by giving cyanide capsules to all of their spies.

Is that consistent with what we see of Wakandan society and the spy chick and the guys who infiltrated LA ? Do they seem the cyanide capsule types ?

I mean they could also implant bombs in their heads with remote triggers right ? But just because they can do a thing doesn't mean they will do a thing. They could probably conquer all of their neighbors, and end a bunch of destructive conflicts in Africa too....but they don't.

I guess that even on slave plantations, they could still find out some useful information? Even if it was just second-hand hearsay?

I don't know a huge amount about slavery, but I know enough to suggest that putting agents into positions as slaves: who are at enormous risk from physical abuse, torture, forced labour, poor hygiene, disease etc. is not a sound intelligence gathering strategy.

Also given the mechanisms devoted to dealing with runaway slaves, well extraction looks to be problematic too.

You yourself pointed out the likely value of any intelligence gleaned....not much.

Sorry if this sounds stupid, but I don't remember Wenwu beating up Romans in the movie. I remember him attacking a fortress at the start, but I don't recall them looking like Romans.

It is a very short clip of him fighting Roman ( or at least remarkably Roman looking) soldiers in a forest in the winter. You could be right, and I could be wrong - they may have been intended as someone else, which would still make Wenwu over 1000 years old but not as old as I originally suggested.

I guess maybe the reason Wenwu didn't conquer the whole world is:

A) because of the existence of other, more powerful superpowered beings
B) because aside from himself, none of his soldiers appear to have any powers or magical weapons.

Its all very well for Wenwu to come along and slaughter everyone with his rings, but he then needs his soldiers to garrison the empire and he can't be everywhere at once, meaning that rebellions will happen and things may fall apart relatively quickly.

In response:

A) Like who ? Wenwu comes into possession of the rings at least 1000 years ago. I suppose if he bothered trying to attack Norway he might have met some Asgardians. But otherwise who else is there? Maybe the sorcerors of Kamar Taj ? The Ancient One is a mere 500 years old, so he could have taken over before she came along
The Eternals ? Sorry, they're only allowed to fight Deviants.

Who am I forgetting here?

B) In the real world, throughout history, military leaders have arisen who were capable of amassing armies and conquering huge territories and holding onto them for extended periods of time...which happened in Central Asia and Europe.

These guys didn't have immortality( well okay, longevity) or magic weapons that let them defeat whole armies single handed. Imagine Julius Caesar, Alexander the Great, Genghis Khan or Attila the Hun had the 10 rings, the world would probably look a bit different.

In comparison to these dudes Wenwu didn't really accomplish much despite having the tools to do so.


Just remembered- Aldrich Killians company was called AIM .

 

[Batmannerism]

The pheromone block wasn't the control system, that was just an extra layer of security for the leader and the Widows didn't seem to know about it. The actual control system was just hard indoctrination and training until the more recent point where they could chemically control them, which required a counter agent to break.

That actually makes them less impressive, given that Nat broke whatever hold they had on her, all by herself.

Removing the chemical control does require the magic red mist, so I guess I can't slag that off too much, as it did pretty much turn them into obedient robots.

Headbutting a table hard enough to sever a nerve is going to do a lot of damage, at least a concussion: that was the single stupidest thing I have ever seen in an MCU film. I can't believe that someone got paid to come up with that and a director was okay with it.

 

[Dark Raven]

That actually makes them less impressive, given that Nat broke whatever hold they had on her, all by herself.

Removing the chemical control does require the magic red mist, so I guess I can't slag that off too much, as it did pretty much turn them into obedient robots.

Headbutting a table hard enough to sever a nerve is going to do a lot of damage, at least a concussion: that was the single stupidest thing I have ever seen in an MCU film. I can't believe that someone got paid to come up with that and a director was okay with it.

Imagine if she knocked herself out from that. Black Widow is a knock out who will knock herself out.

 

[eon001]

Bro, you forgot the Black Widows ( and the Winter Soldier working for Hydra) and Sword.....and the Madripoor underworld....have AIM shown up yet ?
Technically the sorcerors of Kamar Taj are also a secret society, although a benevolent one.

TBH there are too ****ing many shadowy secret
Societies pulling the strings. The MCU is getting crowded.

I'll give you black Widows.

However AIM, Sword, and Kamar Taj don't qualify in my example. AIM (as we know in the comics) and Sword hasn't officially been introduced in the MCU yet, so I can't really unpack them. And there goal isn't to spy on other nations, there are an alien threat defence force and scientific research organization.

Sorcerer Supremes are a line of defense against magic.

Winter Soldier program are flunkies/on offs. The program wasn't far reaching and is not on the same level as the ones I mentioned.

 

[eon001]

Honestly, the Wakanda war dog idea is also one of the dumber ones - if you stop and think about potential barriers to them infiltrating North America, Europe and Asia for a few moments, I think you'll be able to see a fairly obvious reason why they could not do so until the 20th century, in some cases the late 20th century.

Infiltrating other African countries, no problem, but other places, well....

Yeah I would say that the colonial era and the various degrees of segregation any Wakandans would face in a post slave trade world would blunt their abilities to infiltrate until at least the 1970's.

I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility. Black people existed in some form in a lot of historical eras. As far back as medieval and roman eras.

And they wouldn't be front and centre in non black nations, but they could have bribed and bought loyalties. Wakandas intention was just to misdirect. There not trying to control outright.

 

[eon001]

On the other hand... Money makes a world of difference. Maybe the Wakandans used a front of sorts. Pay someone to do the monitoring for them or at least do the real human intel they would have a hard time doing when in Europe, the Americas and sadly even in Africa there were places that had apartheid policies and culture in place.

Now your thinking .
This is what I've been thinking about since Nate Moore described the War Dog initiative.

How would they have navigated a place like North Korea? Not just bribery.

My fan head canon has the Border tribe adopt children from around the nation. Raise them as spies and Wakandans so they have the baked in loyalty. Then send them into there native countries for spy work. Similar to how Nat and Yelena were raised.

 

[metaphysician]

I am comfortable saying that SHIELD is the best. Yes, Hydra infiltrated them, but they were otherwise the dominant player in the cinematic espionage game for like 60 years, and most of Hydra's capacity was actually them mooching off of SHIELD during that time.

A lot of the other groups mentioned here aren't even intelligence agencies, even by the loose standards of cinematic espionage.

 

[eon001]

Hydra co-founded S.H.I.E.L.D. and remained part of them for a very long time, so I'll leave you to guess which of the two is -in my view- a better spy network.

And a secret invasion is coming, if they go the Skrulls path instead of making a twist on it that makes it twice S.H.I.E.L.D. were infiltrated, and Skrulls also outsmarted Hydra at that since they came in the 90s.

Shield are the absolute worse on the list lol.

 

[Fosterson]

Respectfully, I must disagree with pretty much everything you've said:

Is that consistent with what we see of Wakandan society and the spy chick and the guys who infiltrated LA ? Do they seem the cyanide capsule types ?

It wouldn't necessarily have to be a cyanide capsule, but having some sort of failsafe to ensure that your agents can't be forced to give up sensitive information seems likely IMO.

After all, Wakanda's number 1 foreign policy objective is to ensure that the rest of the world thinks that they are poor and have no resources worth stealing.

They could probably conquer all of their neighbors, and end a bunch of destructive conflicts in Africa too....but they don't.

Because by doing that, they would be drawing attention to themselves. They want to keep their Vibranium stockpile hidden, because otherwise the whole world would be after it.

I don't know a huge amount about slavery, but I know enough to suggest that putting agents into positions as slaves: who are at enormous risk from physical abuse, torture, forced labour, poor hygiene, disease etc. is not a sound intelligence gathering strategy.

Ever heard of Witold Pilecki?

Witold Pilecki - Wikipedia

He was a member of the Polish Resistance in WW2 who volunteered to get himself captured and sent to Auschwitz. After several years in the camp, he eventually escaped and delivered a report about the horrors he had witnessed there, one of the first and most detailed such accounts of the Holocaust to be given to the Allies.

My point is that if there were people crazy enough to voluntarily go undercover in Auschwitz, there'd probably be folks willing to do the same in slave plantations.

You could be right, and I could be wrong - they may have been intended as someone else, which would still make Wenwu over 1000 years old but not as old as I originally suggested.

Oh, Wenwu is definitely meant to be around 1,000 years old. The scene of him attacking the fortress seems to be set in Medieval times.

A) Like who ? Wenwu comes into possession of the rings at least 1000 years ago. I suppose if he bothered trying to attack Norway he might have met some Asgardians. But otherwise who else is there? Maybe the sorcerors of Kamar Taj ? The Ancient One is a mere 500 years old, so he could have taken over before she came along

The Ancient One may have only been 500 years old, but the Masters of the Mystic Arts have been around for thousands of years. Wong tells Strange that the Ancient One is only the latest in a long line of Sorcerers Supreme, the first of which was Agamotto.

So the sorcerers were definitely around when Wenwu was doing his conquering. And if the Sorcerer Supreme of that era was even close to the level of power of the Ancient One or Doctor Strange, then they would be vastly above Wenwu, even with his armbands.

Then there's also the order of witches that Agatha belonged to. And Wakanda was around back then too...

B) In the real world, throughout history, military leaders have arisen who were capable of amassing armies and conquering huge territories and holding onto them for extended periods of time...which happened in Central Asia and Europe.

These guys didn't have immortality( well okay, longevity) or magic weapons that let them defeat whole armies single handed. Imagine Julius Caesar, Alexander the Great, Genghis Khan or Attila the Hun had the 10 rings, the world would probably look a bit different.

That's a good point actually. However, I still stand by the argument that the existence of other, more powerful beings/factions may have been an impediment to Wenwu's plans for conquest.

 

[Batmannerism]

On the other hand... Money makes a world of difference. Maybe the Wakandans used a front of sorts. Pay someone to do the monitoring for them or at least do the real human intel they would have a hard time doing when in Europe, the Americas and sadly even in Africa there were places that had apartheid policies and culture in place.

Totally agree 100% , although even that increases they're exposure. In some ways just not interacting with the world, like a tribe in the remote Amazon might work nearly as well - so long as they still monitor world media ( I mean keeping up with Facebook would probably keep then on top of 90% of events, although they'd think the world was nuts, and they should stay off Twitter.. ..)

I'll give you black Widows.

However AIM, Sword, and Kamar Taj don't qualify in my example. AIM (as we know in the comics) and Sword hasn't officially been introduced in the MCU yet, so I can't really unpack them. And there goal isn't to spy on other nations, there are an alien threat defence force and scientific research organization.

Sorcerer Supremes are a line of defense against magic.

Winter Soldier program are flunkies/on offs. The program wasn't far reaching and is not on the same level as the ones I mentioned.

AIM was Aldrich Killian's company, so not a secret society.

As for SWORD they were introduced in WandaVision, but not based around world domination- so far, because neither was SHIELD until HYDRA took over.

The Winter Soldier programme wasn't far reaching? Can't agree with you there.
Have you actually seen the Winter Soldier movie ? Because Hydra used him to influence world events significantly , Zola straight says so - when he's explaining how Hydra shaped the post war world and fed crises to Cap and Nat.
E.g. In the Marvel universe Howard Stark was a pretty important figure - given his influence on technology ( and his son), and we all know who killed him.

 

[Batmannerism]

It wouldn't necessarily have to be a cyanide capsule, but having some sort of failsafe to ensure that your agents can't be forced to give up sensitive information seems likely IMO.

After all, Wakanda's number 1 foreign policy objective is to ensure that the rest of the world thinks that they are poor and have no resources worth stealing.

Dude, you literally said cyanide capsules.

Because by doing that, they would be drawing attention to themselves. They want to keep their Vibranium stockpile hidden, because otherwise the whole world would be after it.

Congratulations, that was my whole point - we see them behave in certain ways that further their aims within certain limitations. There are a lot of things they could do, but don't.

Of course they do send spies to do things like free captured women - which is what Nakia was doing at the start of the film.

Ever heard of Witold Pilecki?

Witold Pilecki - Wikipedia

He was a member of the Polish Resistance in WW2 who volunteered to get himself captured and sent to Auschwitz. After several years in the camp, he eventually escaped and delivered a report about the horrors he had witnessed there, one of the first and most detailed such accounts of the Holocaust to be given to the Allies.

My point is that if there were people crazy enough to voluntarily go undercover in Auschwitz, there'd probably be folks willing to do the same in slave plantations.

That is the bravest and most insane thing I have ever heard, because it involved extreme danger and sheer luck. Not really a strategy you want to based your infiltration plan around.

Oh, Wenwu is definitely meant to be around 1,000 years old. The scene of him attacking the fortress seems to be set in Medieval times.

I am not referring to that scene.



I am referring to the lightning fast cuts energy at 0:36 of the above clip. Have a look at the weapons, armour and cloaks of the soldiers, see what they remind you of - because if they are Romans, then Wenwu is well over 1000 years old.

The Ancient One may have only been 500 years old, but the Masters of the Mystic Arts have been around for thousands of years. Wong tells Strange that the Ancient One is only the latest in a long line of Sorcerers Supreme, the first of which was Agamotto.

So the sorcerers were definitely around when Wenwu was doing his conquering. And if the Sorcerer Supreme of that era was even close to the level of power of the Ancient One or Doctor Strange, then they would be vastly above Wenwu, even with his armbands.

The first part, that the sorcerors existed before before the Ancient One, have to agree with you, you are right.

Could they defeat Wenwu.....maybe, maybe not because the 10 rings are shown as capable of utterly destroying the dweller in darkness a huge, although somewhat generic soul sucking monster. Wenwu losing to his wife when they first met is a terrible piece of writing, so I'm not all that influenced by it, other than to assume he wanted to lose so he could ask her out on a date.

More importantly would the sorcerors have stepped in ? They only get involved in certain events ( boy is that a tired plot line of the MCU or what?)
E.G they did **** all during world War 2, and Wenwu isn't an extradimensional magical threat - the 10 rings may not even be magic ( my theory is they are Celestial technology). Would they stop Wenwu ? I'm not convinced they'd even try.

Then there's also the order of witches that Agatha belonged to. And Wakanda was around back then too...

Yeah the Witches, because they'd totally get involved in military conflicts ? Really ? Where were they during the Civil War, the War of 1812, the revolutionary War? Sorry mate, can't agree with you there.

As for Wakanda, I suggest you re-read your own posts about Wakanda before suggesting that Wakanda is going to do anything about any conflict beyond its borders.
If Wenwu attacks them directly, definitely - but otherwise.....

That's a good point actually. However, I still stand by the argument that the existence of other, more powerful beings/factions may have been an impediment to Wenwu's plans for conquest.

Generally, arguments are stronger when supported by evidence, and I don't think the bulk of evidence ( I.e. the abilities and actions of individual characters and groups) supports your views.

Still, If that's what you believe, I will respectfully disagree and move on.

 

[Batmannerism]

I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility. Black people existed in some form in a lot of historical eras. As far back as medieval and roman eras.

And they wouldn't be front and centre in non black nations, but they could have bribed and bought loyalties. Wakandas intention was just to misdirect. There not trying to control outright.

It is one thing to exist, and another thing to exist in a manner that allows you to obtain meaningful intelligence and another thing entirely to exist in a manner that allows you have any, even small levels of, influence.

If you flip it around, and make the Wakandans Caucasians or Asians ( and relocate the country accordingly) it still makes very limited sense for them to be able to successfully spy and influence other countries where they are a visible minority ( at least pre 19th or 20th century). Xenophobia and distrust of the "other" have been around a very long time.

Now going back to the Wakandans as black Africans, you compound their challenge with the various slave trades that exploited black Africans, and it becomes a remote possibility at best.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

You know, especially after Disney +, we've overlooked the OBVIOUS:

Spoiler

 

[Batmannerism]

You know, especially after Disney +, we've overlooked the OBVIOUS:

Spoiler

True,

Spoiler

although a secret society, who spy on pretty much everything and everyone these guys are bound not to interfere.

.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

True,

Spoiler

although a secret society, who spy on pretty much everything and everyone these guys are bound not to interfere.

.

With an enforcement regime that's as tough as Starfleet is on Picard and Kirk for breaking the Prime Directive.