Sequels What would be the lesson of SM4?

[pjspider1C]

Each of the Spider-Man movies have had a specific theme/lesson to them. To review quickly...

SM1 - Power Vs. Responsiblity
SM2 - Personal Dreams Vs. Doing What's Right
SM3 - Revenge Vs. Forgiveness

With the Lizard being pretty much all but officially confirmed, what do you think the theme would be for SM4? Because Dr. Connors has a family and Peter proposing to MJ (assuming he actually does it in SM4), I'm guessing the theme will have something to do with family. What do you guys think?

 

[Dark Spidey]

SM4 - Self-loathing Vs. Self-acceptance.

 

[Mr Jide]

SM4 - Self-loathing Vs. Self-acceptance.

Yeah I can see how that applies to Conners but dont these lessons primarily target spider-man. Personally, I think we're done with the lessons. Spider-Man knows who he is and what he has to do by now, there isn't anything else he needs to learn other than to just get on with it. As a superhero he'll always be faced with compromising situations but thanks to the lessons of sm1 to 3, he should be in a position to know what to do. Once you know how to crawl, walk, jump, skip and run, there's nothing else for you to do. The lessons are over, now everything that follows is merely application.

 

[pjspider1C]

Yeah I can see how that applies to Conners but dont these lessons primarily target spider-man. Personally, I think we're done with the lessons. Spider-Man knows who he is and what he has to do by now, there isn't anything else he needs to learn other than to just get on with it. As a superhero he'll always be faced with compromising situations but thanks to the lessons of sm1 to 3, he should be in a position to know what to do. Once you know how to crawl, walk, jump, skip and run, there's nothing else for you to do. The lessons are over, now everything that follows is merely application.

Okay... but to say there's nothing else for Peter Parker to learn implies there's no more room for his character to grow or develop. Therefore implying that there's no more stories about Peter Parker to be told. Therefore implying that there's no need for an SM4.

 

[ThatDamnNinja]

The lesson? How about "don't f*** with reptile DNA"?

Beyond that, I think we can be done with lessons. I don't want an after school special.

 

[pjspider1C]

^ Again, that implies that Peter Parker has no more room for character development, which means SM4 would be entirely pointless.

 

[Blader5489]

One of the greatest strengths of the Spiderman franchise, the thing that separates it from most movies, is that the battle superhero vs. supervillain fighting is secondary to Peter Parker's growth as a human being.

If there are no lessons to be learned (which would indicate that Peter has stopped growing - a little presumptuous for a 20-year-old), then there's nothing really to differentiate Spiderman from the typical popcorn comic book movie.

 

[pjspider1C]

^ THANK YOU!!... finally, someone who gets it...

 

[ThatDamnNinja]

I have no problem with focus on the character development. I just don't necessarily think the only way character development can come about is through specific "lessons" that Spider-Man learns.

If you want internal conflict, the one you'd get with the Lizard is pretty easy (albeit difficult to articulate, exactly):

The Lizard is on the loose, killing relatively frequently. With Spider-Man knowing who he is, he doesn't want to kill him, and wants to find a cure. But the longer he waits, the more people die, calling into question whether it would be more moral to kill the Lizard in order to save others? Sort of "needs of the many vs. the needs of the few" type thing.

That also kind of ties into a "doing what is right vs. doing what is popular" sort of thing. The public will expect a fast solution from Spidey, but he isn't willing to kill Dr. Connors, and he is faced with trying to make the right decisions against mounting public pressure. This would also create a nice contrast with Kraven (see my idea for the Kraven storyline in the Kraven thread), who has more or less convinced the world that Spider-Man does not have the public interest at heart, and is pursuing the more popular idea of hunting the Lizard down and killing him.

That was really poorly articulated, but I think you get the gist of it.

 

[pjspider1C]

^ So in essence, the lesson Peter Parker would learn would be about hard choices. I know the term "lesson" is somewhat elementary, but that doesn't change the fact that it's needed. You cannot have character development without the character growing in some sort of shape or form - emotionally, intellectually, morally, etc. I do like your take on the Spider-Man and the Lizard though - The majority of the public wanting the Lizard dead and Spider-Man trying to save him. That's a good conflict for Peter to learn from - sort of a "Public Wants vs. What's Right Morally" type of thing. I like that.

 

[Mr Jide]

I have no problem with focus on the character development. I just don't necessarily think the only way character development can come about is through specific "lessons" that Spider-Man learns.

Exactly! character growth and development doesn't equate to underlying themes or lessons to be learned, its much more than that. Things aren't just black or white, there's the grey matter and its this grey teritory in which spider-man is in.
Think about it, he's a kid that gets these powers at an awkward stage of his life, of course he's going to have to learn things but NOT every adventure he has is defined by a new lesson. The point of the lessons he already has is, for him to apply them. To say that it means there's no need for any more spidey stories is just plain dumb. Life is full of lessons that you learn from but life isn't just about learning, its also about applying what you've learned and this is the stage spider-man should be at. Lessons that are specific have all been covered in sm1,2 and 3.

 

[Mr Jide]

^ So in essence, the lesson Peter Parker would learn would be about hard choices. I know the term "lesson" is somewhat elementary, but that doesn't change the fact that it's needed. You cannot have character development without the character growing in some sort of shape or form - emotionally, intellectually, morally, etc. I do like your take on the Spider-Man and the Lizard though - The majority of the public wanting the Lizard dead and Spider-Man trying to save him. That's a good conflict for Peter to learn from - sort of a "Public Wants vs. What's Right Morally" type of thing. I like that.

You've missed it. Hard choices isn't the lesson, hard choices have been a consistent issue from the get go. Deciding to dump MJ due to his heroics was a hard choice, giving up his spidey powers was a hard choice, forgiving sandman for "killing" ben was a hard choice.

Spidey's issue with the lizard isn't a lesson learned but more of, a crisis of conscience. The lizard is terrorizing the people of NY but trapped inside is his friend, his teacher, what does he do? This type of situation is a regular occurance in every day life. When a child does something wrong, the parent isn't supposed to let them get away with it because he/she is their child, the parent is supposed to discipline the child for what they did wrong. At the end of the day, its a matter of doing what is best. If the lizard can be changed back into Conners, you don't kill him but use all means to subdue him and change him back. However, if the lizard became a primal raging beast on a permanent basis, then he'd have to be killed. All of this proves to not so much be a lesson but rather, plain common sense.

 

[Dark Spidey]

Okay. How about... Duality.

Which can apply to Conner's struggling with his Lizard persona and Peter Parker dealing with attraction, as Spider-Man, to The Black Cat. Who in turn is struggling with her own inner conflicts as Felicia Hardy.

What do you think?

 

[pjspider1C]

Exactly! character growth and development doesn't equate to underlying themes or lessons to be learned, its much more than that. Things aren't just black or white, there's the grey matter and its this grey teritory in which spider-man is in.
Think about it, he's a kid that gets these powers at an awkward stage of his life, of course he's going to have to learn things but NOT every adventure he has is defined by a new lesson. The point of the lessons he already has is, for him to apply them. To say that it means there's no need for any more spidey stories is just plain dumb. Life is full of lessons that you learn from but life isn't just about learning, its also about applying what you've learned and this is the stage spider-man should be at. Lessons that are specific have all been covered in sm1,2 and 3.

Spider-Man has already been applying the lessons that he's learned - how can you not see that? In Spider-Man 1, he chose to walk away from MJ at the end because he learned to be responsible. In Spider-Man 2, he learned that sometimes he has to sacrifice his dreams to do what's right, he taught that to Doc Ock and again chose to not be with MJ (until she showed up at his door in her wedding dress, that is). In Spider-Man 3, he learned to overcome his own personal demons and forgave Sandman. All the lessons he's learned he already has applied? Are you saying for 4, 5, & 6 you want to see him apply them all again? What's the point in that? There needs to be some new moral conflict for him to struggle with.

 

[ThatDamnNinja]

You've missed it. Hard choices isn't the lesson, hard choices have been a consistent issue from the get go. Deciding to dump MJ due to his heroics was a hard choice, giving up his spidey powers was a hard choice, forgiving sandman for "killing" ben was a hard choice.

Spidey's issue with the lizard isn't a lesson learned but more of, a crisis of conscience. The lizard is terrorizing the people of NY but trapped inside is his friend, his teacher, what does he do? This type of situation is a regular occurance in every day life. When a child does something wrong, the parent isn't supposed to let them get away with it because he/she is their child, the parent is supposed to discipline the child for what they did wrong. At the end of the day, its a matter of doing what is best. If the lizard can be changed back into Conners, you don't kill him but use all means to subdue him and change him back. However, if the lizard became a primal raging beast on a permanent basis, then he'd have to be killed. All of this proves to not so much be a lesson but rather, plain common sense.

Of course, that's what makes for the basis of the conflict. It's easy for you or me to say that, but to someone who knows and respects him so much (especially since, even post-transformation, he's not evil), it's not as easy to make that choice, especially if there is ANY reason to believe he could be turned back.

Oh, and in case anyone forgot, taking down the Lizard isn't exactly a cakewalk no matter what ethical angle you approach it from.

 

[pjspider1C]

You've missed it. Hard choices isn't the lesson, hard choices have been a consistent issue from the get go. Deciding to dump MJ due to his heroics was a hard choice, giving up his spidey powers was a hard choice, forgiving sandman for "killing" ben was a hard choice.

Spidey's issue with the lizard isn't a lesson learned but more of, a crisis of conscience. The lizard is terrorizing the people of NY but trapped inside is his friend, his teacher, what does he do? This type of situation is a regular occurance in every day life. When a child does something wrong, the parent isn't supposed to let them get away with it because he/she is their child, the parent is supposed to discipline the child for what they did wrong. At the end of the day, its a matter of doing what is best. If the lizard can be changed back into Conners, you don't kill him but use all means to subdue him and change him back. However, if the lizard became a primal raging beast on a permanent basis, then he'd have to be killed. All of this proves to not so much be a lesson but rather, plain common sense.

Okay, so what's entertaining about someone acting out plain common sense? There needs to be a new moral struggle for Peter Parker to deal with. We already know he's going to try to save the Lizard, that's predictable. What would be interesting is if he were forced into a position where he had no other choice but to kill the Lizard and watch him struggle with that. Of course, that'll never happen because it's a Spider-Man movie and Spider-Man doesn't kill people.

 

[ThatDamnNinja]

And, and throw in the whole "Kraven is trying to kill the Lizard" angle (along with the "Kraven is trying to kill Spider-Man" angle, of course), and you've got a pretty crappy day for your friendly neighborhood Spider-Man.

 

[pjspider1C]

^ Yeah, you've got a crappy day for Spider-Man... but he still doesn't learn anything morally.

 

[BobJM]

Rise from the ashes of defeat.

I've elaborated on that concept in the Pooh's Playhouse thread. It ties in major characters (Peter, Dr. Connors, Kraven and/or Electro).

 

[ThatDamnNinja]

^ Yeah, you've got a crappy day for Spider-Man... but he still doesn't learn anything morally.

Sure he learns. He learns about the same stuff you already agreed with me on further up in the thread.

 

[ThatDamnNinja]

^ Yeah, you've got a crappy day for Spider-Man... but he still doesn't learn anything morally.

Oh, and when I said "a crappy day," I was suggesting that his day is crappy because of the fact that you've got the INTERNAL conflict combined with all the EXTERNAL dangers.

 

[Mr Jide]

Spider-Man has already been applying the lessons that he's learned - how can you not see that? In Spider-Man 1, he chose to walk away from MJ at the end because he learned to be responsible. In Spider-Man 2, he learned that sometimes he has to sacrifice his dreams to do what's right, he taught that to Doc Ock and again chose to not be with MJ (until she showed up at his door in her wedding dress, that is). In Spider-Man 3, he learned to overcome his own personal demons and forgave Sandman. All the lessons he's learned he already has applied? Are you saying for 4, 5, & 6 you want to see him apply them all again? What's the point in that? There needs to be some new moral conflict for him to struggle with.

You've misread my post. Everything in your post I already said but what I am not saying is, I want to see spider-man repeat the lessons he's learned, what I said was, that the lessons he learned form sm1 to 3 are all the tools he needed to develop as a person living a normal life and as a superhero. Those lessons were the core of how he copes and survives as a human being doing the things he does and the challenges he faces. Him needing to have some new contrived lesson thrown at him every time he goes out and does his thing is just silly.

 

[pjspider1C]

Oh, and when I said "a crappy day," I was suggesting that his day is crappy because of the fact that you've got the INTERNAL conflict combined with all the EXTERNAL dangers.

Ah okay, I get it now. Don't know if I'm sold on it, but I understand it.

 

[pjspider1C]

You've misread my post. Everything in your post I already said but what I am not saying is, I want to see spider-man repeat the lessons he's learned, what I said was, that the lessons he learned form sm1 to 3 are all the tools he needed to develop as a person living a normal life and as a superhero. Those lessons were the core of how he copes and survives as a human being doing the things he does and the challenges he faces. Him needing to have some new contrived lesson thrown at him every time he goes out and does his thing is just silly.

Yes, those are lessons that he will apply towards everyday life. What I was trying to say is that we don't need to see him struggle with those same issues over and over again because we already know how he will work through them. The reason why he needs to learn a new moral lesson in SM4 is to keep us intrigued in his character. Movie-goers find entertainment in watching characters struggle because it's interesting to see how they react. And if you take away the element of a new moral lesson, the audience will start to lose interest in the character.

 

[Mr Jide]

Okay, so what's entertaining about someone acting out plain common sense? There needs to be a new moral struggle for Peter Parker to deal with.

You do realise that trying to cope and resolve a moral struggle can be done by applying common sense. Also, engaging in a moral struggle doesn't mean the same as learning a lesson, its merely making a tough decision.

We already know he's going to try to save the Lizard, that's predictable. What would be interesting is if he were forced into a position where he had no other choice but to kill the Lizard and watch him struggle with that.

Again, that doesn't mean there's a lesson learned there. Its acting on based on a crisis of conscience as I mentioned earlier. If you're looking for a lesson in here, I'm telling you it'll be something Peter already learned in the previous movies, hence there's nothing much to if any to learn. However, that doesn't mean his character stops growing or being developed.[/quote]