Which family would win?

[BrianWilly]

I know for a fact -- A FACT -- that he is unable to resist Mr. Terrific's mashed potatoes.

 

[droogiedroogie2]

So we're giving the Bat family enough prep time to manufacture and wear f'ing Kryptonite battle armor?

If we're suspending disbelief enough to the point that Cassandra and Jason are fighting on batman's side, we might as well assume that the Batsquad would not just let crates of kryptonite sit around the house gathering dust. That's not very Batlike.

Well sht, let's just say that Ollie went ahead and manufactured a nuclear warhead and gets to use it on Wayne mansion...from another dimension...while everyone is asleep! 'Cause you know, he could do it right?

Of course, that would run completely counter to everything the character is about, on a number of different levels, whereas the kryptonite is something Jason possesses, right now.

And let's just say Superman just went back in time and spent a billion years in the sun and became superultraSuperman, with the ability to kill everything with a thought! In a no-holds barred fight, that's what he'd do right? And let's just say...

You're not very good at reductio ad absurdum argumentation. You shouldn't use it.

Of course any one team in the world can win if you give them all the advantages in the world while stripping every other team down to their regular powers or less. You can make up enough imaginary scenarios to make anyone win.

Who'd I strip down? As I recall, in an open-range fight, I had Superman winning by dropping a mountain on the Bat-squad. In a closed range, well, it's hard to fight hundreds of pounds of Kryptonite. I also do not recall giving anyone "all the advantages in the world." I simply theorized that if Jason was on the Bat-team again, it's not that hard to imagine Batman putting hundreds of pounds of kryptonite to use, just in case you ever had to use it. He has bee known to make plans before.

And for the record, Batman's contingency plan for Wonder Woman was ****ing ******ed. "I will trap you in virtual reality!...and you will force yourself to fight until your heart stops since you're a warrior and never gives up!!" Not only would this not work with Diana's ability to see truth all the time

Doesn't she need the lasso for that? Wouldn't she have to know that there was a lie to be seen through, or a possible lie, in order to see through it?

but it also goes perfectly to show what the majority of JLA writers, even good ones like Mark Waid, thought of Diana: a cold and bloodthirsty battle-addict who has no facet to her personality besides her ability to fight. Really, they had no one to blame but themselves that people started seeing her as unrelatable and inhuman.

When every writer for the past twenty years has written her that way, one starts to assume that perhaps it's no longer the writers' fault, and simply the way the character has evolved. Yes. She likes fighting. Yes. She's competitive. Huh. Imagine that. An Amazon, born and raised a warrior, enjoying the thrill of combat, and being competitive. Who would have known?

Got any better suggestions for neutralizing Wonder Woman? Punching out the gods, maybe?

 

[droogiedroogie2]

As opposed to Batman being untouchable because he just so happens to know every possible thing that could ever happen ever in advance.

Yep. Totally different. Batman can be killed by a stray bullet. Now there's virtually nothing that can kill Superman, or even hurt him. Wow, what a fun character to read. Batman's planning capabilities come from his intellect, and this has been well-established since the Dark Knight Returns if not before. Superman's ridiculously D&D Godliness is not well-established. There was a reason they changed him post-COIE.

And now that I'm thinking about it, if he's running his company during the day, cavorting around as Bruce in the evening, and patrolling as Batman at night, when the hell does he ever have time to make all these ridiculous plans?

He doesn't run his company. You shouldn't argue about a character you don't understand very well. And he still doesn't cavort that much, despite Alfred's persistence on the matter. That leaves a lot of time. Some of the time is spent with the Justice League, including daytime. Some of the time is spent sleeping. Some of the time is, apparently, spent planning. Wow, you're right. That is a tough concept to grasp. My brain is full to bursting. My mind can't wrap itself around this idea. Intense.

 

[droogiedroogie2]

Well I could see him using the Vibra-Bullet on Impulse, Jay Garrick, and Jessie Quick, and Mr. Freeze's chemicals on Elongated Man, and Scarecrow's toxins on Tempest, and the Red K on Superboy.

What other plans did he have

I can't quite remember them all right now off the top of my head. I'm pretty sure he had something about neutralizing Black Canary. I think he was going to somehow manipulate Ollie's personal passions to just get him out of action. I can't think of any others right now.

 

[droogiedroogie2]

He planned to have steak for dinner.

Batman eats his steak medium-rare. Sorta bloody, but not so raw that it's deadly or anything. Kind of like Batman.

 

[Ultra-Herald9]

Wonder Woman herself is by far the most dangerous element for the Kryptonians, moreso than any Kryptonite. If any one of them gets caught in that lasso, they're not getting out. Which makes him or her more than easy target for a decapitating tiara. Her one drawback in this would be that there's three of them and only one of her, two of the Kryptonians are faster and stronger than her, and neither Donna nor Cassie have any of her specific advantages such as unbreakable lasso and magic tiara.

Wonder Girl's lasso does indeed create magic lightning, but consider that she once used it against a brainwashed Superboy and it took ages for him to finally go down. Do you honestly think that all three members of the House of El are just going to wait patiently and politely while she does her business? Of course not. Also, Wonder Girl herself is the slowest and weakest metahuman in this entire fight; both Superman and Supergirl could evade her with ridiculous ease. And see the recent Supergirl #10 for the glaring strength different between Kara and Cassie. So the lasso is an advantage, but not that big of an advantage.

Arrows are useless against both the Kryptonians (steel skin) and the Amazons (blocking things like arrows with their bracelets = easy). Trick arrows would do some damage, but not enough. Suppose that one of the archers fires some kind of smoke bomb arrow or flash bomb arrow and manages to disorient one of the metas. Okay, then what? How are they supposed to finish the victim off? Or, better question, how are they supposed to finish the victim off before the "victim" recovers and tears them limb from limb?

Connor Hawke would systematically pwn every single member of the Bat family with the possible exception of Batman himself if it were a one-on-one battle, but with all these members from both sides the odds are greatly changed. Speedy, being a relative n00b, is the deciding factor here; she's simply not experienced enough to defeat any one of the people in this fight (Robin already won her once). With her gone, the Bat family simply have the advantage of numbers.

The official final tally: Super > Wonder > Bat > Arrow

Remember how easily Earth 2 Superman ripped of Wondy's lasso though?

 

[Ultra-Herald9]

I think Connor Hawke could easily rip throught most of the bat family himself with the exception of Batman of course.

 

[Eros]

in a fews years Conner Hawke will be able to rip through Batman himself with ease. Conner was raised from childhood to be a ass kicking machine.

 

[Andy C.]

Yep. Totally different. Batman can be killed by a stray bullet. Now there's virtually nothing that can kill Superman, or even hurt him. Wow, what a fun character to read. Batman's planning capabilities come from his intellect, and this has been well-established since the Dark Knight Returns if not before. Superman's ridiculously D&D Godliness is not well-established. There was a reason they changed him post-COIE.

First off, DKR isn't in continuity, so it doesn't count. Secondly, Superman's "ridculously D&D godliness" has been around since the 50s, and only got retconned out in the John Byrne era, so Superman's advantages have been "established" for far longer than Batman's.

More to the point, however, is that you were arguing that Superman being invincible makes the character less interesting, yet somehow Batman always being right and knowing every possible scenario beforehand doesn't. It doesn't matter whether or not a bullet can kill Batman, because he's already mapped everything out so that said bullet will never hit him. Boy, what a fun character to read.

He doesn't run his company. You shouldn't argue about a character you don't understand very well. And he still doesn't cavort that much, despite Alfred's persistence on the matter. That leaves a lot of time. Some of the time is spent with the Justice League, including daytime. Some of the time is spent sleeping. Some of the time is, apparently, spent planning. Wow, you're right. That is a tough concept to grasp. My brain is full to bursting. My mind can't wrap itself around this idea. Intense.

Ah, I love when people bring out the assumption that raising any sort of question or doubt in a character automatically means that I don't understand them. In order to maintain his image as Bruce Wayne, he has to have an active social life, as well as at least make appearances at his company, even if he's not there nine to five. Spending time with the Justice League takes another big chunk out of his time, especially if he's so keen on secretly plotting against them. Not to mention that a good deal of his potential 'prep' time is spent investigating ongoing cases. There's only twenty-four hours in a day, and to believe that he could manage his duties as a businessman, his reputation as a billionaire playboy, his missions with the League, his cases as a detective, and still have time to sit around and daydream about what to do if (insert plot twist here) happens is absolutely absurd.

 

[BellstoneHero]

As opposed to Batman being untouchable because he just so happens to know every possible thing that could ever happen ever in advance.

And now that I'm thinking about it, if he's running his company during the day, cavorting around as Bruce in the evening, and patrolling as Batman at night, when the hell does he ever have time to make all these ridiculous plans? You're gonna tell me he's going to take time off from his real job or his duty as a crime-fighter to sit around in the cave and just imagine stuff to do if Aquaman turns against him?

wow, bruce spends time running wayne enterprises during the day? i wasn't aware of this... running a company all day, running the streets at night...i wonder when he sleeps...and i wonder what lucius fox does...hmm...and bruce sitting around imagining what to do if aquaman turns against him...yes, that's exactly what he does...constantly. how the hell do you think he came up with his contingencies the first time? oh! maybe it was alfred that thought it up...damn english.

 

[The Leaguer]

My family already won.

 

[BellstoneHero]

It doesn't matter whether or not a bullet can kill Batman, because he's already mapped everything out so that said bullet will never hit him. Boy, what a fun character to read.

That's why he got his back broken right? Because he had it mapped out and knew it was coming but he was too busy maintaining his reputation as Bruce Wayne to prevent it. Ah I see now.

Ah, I love when people bring out the assumption that raising any sort of question or doubt in a character automatically means that I don't understand them. In order to maintain his image as Bruce Wayne, he has to have an active social life, as well as at least make appearances at his company, even if he's not there nine to five. Spending time with the Justice League takes another big chunk out of his time, especially if he's so keen on secretly plotting against them. Not to mention that a good deal of his potential 'prep' time is spent investigating ongoing cases. There's only twenty-four hours in a day, and to believe that he could manage his duties as a businessman, his reputation as a billionaire playboy, his missions with the League, his cases as a detective, and still have time to sit around and daydream about what to do if (insert plot twist here) happens is absolutely absurd.

I suppose that Alfred telling tabloids that Bruce has been skiing with some supermodel won't suffice in maintaining the social life. Also, Bruce really hasn't given a damn about making ANY appearances. Maybe you didn't notice but the League's roster is QUITE extensive and Bruce has made it known to alert him when he's NEEDED. So yes that does leave much time for Bruce to plot and be paranoid. Though he's much less paranoid thatn he has been usual.

 

[yenaled]

Alan Scott, Thorn, Jade, Obsidian and Kyle Rayner would kick everyones asses.

 

[The Leaguer]

Do not EVER mention Jade.

 

[yenaled]

Alan still loves her

 

[batbat_29640]

This thread lacks some important groups.

The Marvel Family (Marvel, Captain Marvel, and Mary Marvel)

The Black Marvel Family (Black Adam, Isis, and Osiris)

The Flashes (Bart Allen and Jay Garrick)

THANK YOU!!! . . . Someone finally threw in the Marvels . . . byebye Superfamily!

 

[batbat_29640]

That's why he got his back broken right? Because he had it mapped out and knew it was coming but he was too busy maintaining his reputation as Bruce Wayne to prevent it. Ah I see.

No! He got his back broken because Bane was too much of a scared little ***** to take him on full strength . Bane busted a big ole' hole into Arkham . . . released ALL of Batman's rogues and waited utnil Batman had gone days without sleep or rest until he'd rounded up all of his enemies . . . and then when Batman was tired Bane SNEAKS up behind him and then . . . snaps into a Batman.

 

[SuperFerret]

Alan still loves her

But only because he has too.

 

[The Leaguer]

Alan still loves her

So f***ing what.

 

[BrianWilly]

If we're suspending disbelief enough to the point that Cassandra and Jason are fighting on batman's side, we might as well assume that the Batsquad would not just let crates of kryptonite sit around the house gathering dust. That's not very Batlike.

If we're suspending disbelief enough to the point that these characters are even trying to kill each other in the first place, then why doesn't Wonder Woman just call up her entire Amazon army and tell them to whip out that Purple Death Ray and go to town on the mfckers?

If we're suspending disbelief enough to the point where these characters are fighting at all, we might as well assume that Superman would just fry every one of them from orbit -- which he is completely capable of doing -- and then that would be the end of that. What the heck does "closed-range" have to do with it? If he wanted to get further away, what's going to stop him? A wall? A ceiling??

Where does it end? What is the limit? At what point can we just say, "These are the characters and they're fighting with so and so abilities and so and so resources and this particular area"?

Of course, that would run completely counter to everything the character is about, on a number of different levels, whereas the kryptonite is something Jason possesses, right now.

Oh, so we have to have people behaving in character now. My bad, gotcha.

So Ollie the mayor exposes Bruce Wayne's identity on national television and then sends a squadron of soldiers to the mansion to shoot him in his sleep, with tranqs of course, on grounds of vigilantism. For the win.

Fantastic, you say? Absurd? Too crazy and out-of-left-field? Well, I'd say the moment the words "Kryptonite battle armor" entered into the equation, all bets were off.

You're not very good at reductio ad absurdum argumentation. You shouldn't use it.

Can you give me a logical reason why Superman wouldn't do what I suggest if he wanted to win at any cost? It doesn't even need to be a billion years. It could be for an hour. Half an hour. Ten minutes, even. What makes this so much more absurd than your Kryptonite argument?

Who'd I strip down? As I recall, in an open-range fight, I had Superman winning by dropping a mountain on the Bat-squad. In a closed range, well, it's hard to fight hundreds of pounds of Kryptonite. I also do not recall giving anyone "all the advantages in the world." I simply theorized that if Jason was on the Bat-team again, it's not that hard to imagine Batman putting hundreds of pounds of kryptonite to use, just in case you ever had to use it. He has bee known to make plans before.

Jason doesn't just lug hundreds of pounds of Kryponite with him wherever he goes. Does he get time before the battle to have it delivered to the fighting grounds? How much time in advance are you giving them to gather the Kryptonite? How much time in advance are you giving them to create some armor? Those aren't advantages?

Meanwhile, how much time in advance are you giving the Kryptonians a heads up that their opponents are going to come after them with Kryptonite battle armor? Do they even know? Or is it only the Bats who know in advance who they are fighting and have time to prepare? Don't you think if Superman knew in advance that he'd be facing any Kryptonite much less a whole truck of it, he'd be fighting a bit differently? Maybe if he had some time, he'd whip up some lead in that Fortress of his? Send out a few Kryptonite-resistant Superman robots? 'Cause he has Superman robots at his disposal, just as Jason has Kryptonite. Just because he doesn't lug it around with him all day doesn't mean he doesn't have it. Is Batman's side the only side that's allowed to use resources?

Doesn't she need the lasso for that? Wouldn't she have to know that there was a lie to be seen through, or a possible lie, in order to see through it?

Over the years, it's been slowly established that she can tell truth from lies solely on the merit of who she is; the lasso is only a conduit for her own power. Tower of Babel may have been written before this was firmly established, but it is firmly established today.

When every writer for the past twenty years has written her that way, one starts to assume that perhaps it's no longer the writers' fault, and simply the way the character has evolved. Yes. She likes fighting. Yes. She's competitive. Huh. Imagine that. An Amazon, born and raised a warrior, enjoying the thrill of combat, and being competitive. Who would have known?

Being competitive to the point of not stopping a battle until she has a heart attack? That's just completely asinine. It relies on your victim being obsessively competitive to the point of a mental instability. Does it run contrary to Diana's character, who has been taught to always look for a diplomatic and peaceful resolution in any conflict? Yes. Does it run contrary to Amazon teachings, which emphasize strategy and planning and intuition before blind aggression and brute force? Yes, yes, and yes.

And y'know what? It's all Kingdom Come's fault, as most things eventually wind up being. I'm sorry, I love the story and it's truly exemplary of DC's finest, but ever since Waid put her in that damned chicken outfit, every single writer including himself somehow got it into their heads that since they have no other idea on how to write a woman, the best way must certainly be to make her as barbaric and trigger-happy and warlike as humanly possible. "It worked for Elseworlds, ergo it must work just as well for actual continuity!" Ugh. Half of comic characters' out-of-character problems would be solved if people didn't insist on using non-canon material as sources for canon. Dark Knight Returns, Donner's Superman, Marvel's Ultimate universe...the list goes on.

Got any better suggestions for neutralizing Wonder Woman? Punching out the gods, maybe?

Besides having her exercise herself to death? Well, if Trinity is in continuity (and it might well be, following IC), then fumes from the Lazarus pit will make her dizzy and faint due to the fact that it's similar to the mystic life-giving energy that originally created her, albeit far more concentrated.

Barring that, Wonder Woman's weakness, like most other superheroes' such as Superman and even Batman's, is her compassion towards the innocent.

Remember the first time Batman met Superman in post-Crisis? Batman stopped Superman from attacking him by making him think that a bomb has been planted on an innocent person and will go off if Superman doesn't do what he says. The "innocent" person wound up being Batman himself, but the trick worked, and it worked great. See, there's a completely believable instance of Batman getting the upper hand by genuinely using his brains and figuring out a plan, not with "lawl Kryptonite rings" shenanigans.

 

[Eros]

supes and supegirl fly into the sun, and come out super charged, thus makeing them immune to any of hteir weakness, and they drop the moon on the other Families of heroes.