Who Still Likes Jack's Joker Or Thinks He's Better Than Heath's Joker?

[Travesty]

The fact that Heath did not play the character as he has been represented in most movies,tv shows and comics, by definition means that he took the character in a new direction.

I don't think anybody is denying the fact that TDK-Joker went in a new direction, but that doesn't mean they expanded upon what we already know of the character, when in my opinion, they downgraded on the basic foundation of what The Joker is about. Sure, The Joker is about chaos and destruction, but so is EVERY villain in Batman's rouge gallery. Most of the definable features of Joker were completely stripped away, or just a step down.

Less gimmicky (permanant white skin, joy buzzers) and more "reality based" (makeup, knives).

You can still have a "realistic" take on The Joker, while still retaining his core, and definable, features. If you think The Jokers gadgets are "gimmicky", then did you even like the character to begin with? The Joker relies on his gadgets, as much as Batman relies on his. If they made Batman use throwing stars, instead of his batarangs, a regular parachute, instead of his cape/glider, or drive a truck, instead of a Batmobile, just for the sake of being "reality based", then that would take away from the core elements that defines Batman as a whole. Sure, that would be a new direction for Batman, but that doesn't mean it's a progression of the character, in fact, it would be a downgrade.

 

[The Joker]

I don't think anybody is denying the fact that TDK-Joker went in a new direction, but that doesn't mean they expanded upon what we already know of the character, when in my opinion, they downgraded on the basic foundation of what The Joker is about. Sure, The Joker is about chaos and destruction, but so is EVERY villain in Batman's rouge gallery.

That's not true at all. How is Catwoman, Riddler, Two Face, Scarecrow, Mr Freeze, Clayface, Killer Croc, Poison Ivy etc all about chaos and destruction?

You're severely short changing Batman's villains there. And chaos and destruction is a huge umbrella heading. They all pull specific types of crimes that feed their psychosis. They're not just about chaos and destruction.

You can still have a "realistic" take on The Joker, while still retaining his core, and definable, features.

You could, but why repeat what was done in B'89? Batman needs his batarangs and Batmobile, and grappling hook etc because he's got nothing else. Those are the extent of his arsenal.

Wheras the Joker has much wider range of gimmicks, and has used knives, bazookas, circus themed vehicles, bombs, dressed up in comical disguises etc. None of that was shown in B'89. That's the beauty of the character. He can make anything lethal in a comical way. The pencil trick is a great example.

Nicholson's Joker didn't even instill a sense of fear in Gotham like Ledger's Joker did. Sure he was bumping off citizens by poisoning their products, yet they all flocked like sheep to him when he promised to dump 20 million on the crowd at midnight on public TV. And not one Cop in sight to arrest him either lol.

 

[Travesty]

That's not true at all. How is Catwoman, Riddler, Two Face, Scarecrow, Mr Freeze, Clayface, Killer Croc, Poison Ivy etc all about chaos and destruction?

You're severely short changing Batman's villains there. And chaos and destruction is a huge umbrella heading. They all pull specific types of crimes that feed their psychosis. They're not just about chaos and destruction.

No, I understand that every villain has different "motives" to their crimes, but my point was that most of Batmans villains could have done the same things that Joker did in TDK. Nothing had definable "Joker motives". To me, The Joker enjoys chaos for the sake of it, with no motives, unless trying to get Batman's attention. In TDK, he had a clear motive to his chaos and destruction. Sure, it touched upon The Joker-Batman relationship,but that wasn't the main idea around TDK. I like a Joker who doesn't have motives, who only likes chaos, but is psychotic himself.

You could, but why repeat what was done in B'89? Batman needs his batarangs and Batmobile, and grappling hook etc because he's got nothing else. Those are the extent of his arsenal. Wheras the Joker has much wider range of gimmicks, and has used knives, bazookas, circus themed vehicles, bombs, dressed up in comical disguises etc. None of that was shown in B'89. That's the beauty of the character. He can make anything lethal in a comical way. The pencil trick is a great example.

No, we've seen Batman use a TON of different gadgets throughout his comic book career, some of which, include actual guns. But the reason why he commonly uses his regular arsenal, is because those are the ones that define the character the most. Regular guns and knives don't define Joker. If he used those weapons in a psych-out kill, or overall gag, then it could be debated, but that wasn't the case with TDKs-Joker. I'm not saying he can't, or hasn't used these weapons before, it's just they don't truley embody the character. But I wont deny the "pencil trick", as that was a good example of something that is used as a gag, or a psych-out kill. I liked that a LOT actually, but other then that, no, I thought all of his weapons were weak-sauce.

Nicholson's Joker didn't even instill a sense of fear in Gotham like Ledger's Joker did. Sure he was bumping off citizens by poisoning their products, yet they all flocked like sheep to him when he promised to dump 20 million on the crowd at midnight on public TV. And not one Cop in sight to arrest him either lol.

Haha, I know, but the point to having the parade, was to get Batman's attention. That's another reason why I think B89s-Joker is better. He still promoted chaos and destruction, but there wasn't anything to it, other then to get Batmans attention, and that's all The Joker is about(ie. chaos and destruction, and to "play around" with Batman).

As for the cop thing, it seems that every Bat-movie has dumb cops, hence, the need for a Bat-Man. The cops had the building surrounded where The Joker was in TDK, with helicopters, cops, snipers, SWAT teams, and they still couldn't get to The Joker, only Batman could. LOL

 

[Mr.?]

Haha, I know, but the point to having the parade, was to get Batman's attention. That's another reason why I think B89s-Joker is better. He still promoted chaos and destruction, but there wasn't anything to it, other then to get Batmans attention, and that's all The Joker is about(ie. chaos and destruction, and to "play around" with Batman).

As for the cop thing, it seems that every Bat-movie has dumb cops, hence, the need for a Bat-Man. The cops had the building surrounded where The Joker was in TDK, with helicopters, cops, snipers, SWAT teams, and they still couldn't get to The Joker, only Batman could. LOL

What are you kidding? Why did Ledger's Joker put out the video tape and hang the fake Batman? Thats right to get Batmans attention. Why did he kidnap DEnt and Rachel? To get his attention. Why did he rig the ferrys to blow? To get his attention because he wanted to prove his point that people would kill each other to save themselves. Pretty much what you are praising Nicholson for is what Ledger embodied.

Ummm did you watch the same movie as me? The cops were ready to strike then Batman said "With the Joker it's never this easy" and "Give me 5 minutes" Batman went in and found out what was going on and stopped the SWAT from killing hostages by accident. As far as him getting to joker first, well he does have a grappling hook that can scale buildings in seconds the cops don't and showed up after the fact.

 

[Travesty]

his permawhite is now the facial scars. he cannot take that off. it's fresh, and absolutely faithful to the core character.

The permawhite is an immensely huge aspect to the character. The reason why The Joker works so well with Batman, is that he is the ying to Batmans yang(yikes, sounds kinda gross). But really, The Joker should be the complete opposite of Batman in almost every way. Batman is serious and determined, while The Joker doesn't really care about anything. Batman wants to save lives for the greater good, while The Joker kills for no good reason. Batman has a choice in who he can be, while Joker can't help but be who he is. Batman decides to wear a mask, while Joker can't take off his skin. The facial scars should just be looked at as part of TDKs-Joker perma-smile, not part of his "mask". You see, TDKs-Joker still has a choice to not "get into character" if need be, but there shouldn't be a choice or desire, it should just be part of the character. Joker shouldn't be "suiting up", he should just always be.

 

[Travesty]

What are you kidding? Why did Ledger's Joker put out the video tape and hang the fake Batman? Thats right to get Batmans attention. Why did he kidnap DEnt and Rachel? To get his attention. Why did he rig the ferrys to blow? To get his attention because he wanted to prove his point that people would kill each other to save themselves. Pretty much what you are praising Nicholson for is what Ledger embodied.

No, he kidnapped Dent for other motives. Remember, he thought Dent was Batman, and he didn't find that out until he was trying to capture Dent, and saw the Tumbler zoom by. He originally wanted to kill Batman, but dropped that when he saw The Tumbler. That was just plan-A not working, so he moved on to plan-B. As for the fake Batman, yes, that is true, but he did that because he wanted to kill Batman over the deal he made with the mob. And he rigged the ferries to make a point about Gothams citizens. He didn't even know Batman was going to be there, as why he looked surprised when Batman even showed up. His motives weren't to get his attention, it was to make HIS point.

Ummm did you watch the same movie as me?

Why do you feel the need to say this? Yes, I watched "the same movie as [you]".

The cops were ready to strike then Batman said "With the Joker it's never this easy" and "Give me 5 minutes" Batman went in and found out what was going on and stopped the SWAT from killing hostages by accident. As far as him getting to joker first, well he does have a grappling hook that can scale buildings in seconds the cops don't and showed up after the fact.

I was talking to Joker(SHH member), and was just alluding to the fact that every Bat-movie has dumb cops. The point of the matter, is they had a ton of men who were on a terrorist, who is threatening the lives of hundreds of citizens(including cops), and has already killed a ton of people(including cops), and you think the cops and snipers should stand down for 5 min because of Batman? That's the point! The cops in these movies are dumb!

 

[Mr.?]

No, he kidnapped Dent, for other motives. rememeber, he thought Dent was Batman, and he didn't find that out until he was trying to capture Dent, and saw the Tumbler zoom by. That was just plan A not working, so he moved on to something else. As for the fake Batman, yes, that is true, but that's only one example. And he rigged the ferries to make a point about Gothams citizens. He didn't even know Batman was going to be there, as why he looked surprised when Batman even showed up.

Why do you feel the need to say this? Yes, I watched "the same movie as [you]".

I was talking to Joker(SHH member), and was just alluding to the fact that every Bat-movie has dumb cops. The point of the matter, is they had a ton of men who were on a terrorist, who is threatening the lives of hundreds of citizens(including cops), and has already killed a ton of people(including cops), and you think the cops and snipers should stand down for 5 min because of Batman? That's the point! The cops in these movies are dumb!

Absolutely wrong on Dent why would he kidnap him if he already knows he isn't Batman (It happened after the chase scene), and he also says to Batman "For a minute there I thought you really were Harvey, the way you threw yourself after her". And even if Dent wasn't to get Batmans attention, then what about Rachel? Surely Joker knew he had a thing for her. You can't tell me that this was all just one back up plan that fell magically into place. The ferries were to get his attention don't you remember when he said "Ill show you when the chips are down these civilized people will eat each other." The ferries where a message to Batman and he knew he would show up. He didn't look surprised at all when he showed up and if he was why would he have guard dogs protecting him?

The cops weren't dumb at all. Their boss (Gordon) said give Batman 2 minutes and then they breached, its not their fault they didn't know that Joker had switched everybody up to confuse them.

 

[Travesty]

Absolutely wrong on Dent why would he kidnap him if he already knows he isn't Batman (It happened after the chase scene), and he also says to Batman "For a minute there I thought you really were Harvey, the way you threw yourself after her".

I know, but how would he have figured out that he wasn't Dent? Dent just admitted to Gotham, that he was Batman. Then, The Joker was going to go kidnap him and Rachel, and kill them both. He didn't find out, until he was in the truck, which is why he went "hmmmm" when he saw The Tumbler. The plan was to take Dent(who he thought was Batman) in one warehouse, and Rachel in another, and blow them up, therefore, completing his promise to the mob about killing Batman. Right after the chase scene, Joker was apprehended, so the plan was still in effect, but didn't know for a fact that Dent wasn't Batman.

And even if Dent wasn't to get Batmans attention, then what about Rachel? Surely Joker knew he had a thing for her. You can't tell me that this was all just one back up plan that fell magically into place.

No, I'm saying that was the original plan, because he thought Dent was Batman. Are you telling me, that he came up with that plan while he was apprehended and sitting in a jail, and somehow got Dent and Rachel in a warehouse, knowing that Batman would capture him, just to have a guy with a bomb in his stomach, come to bail him out of jail? Are you telling me that fell perfectly into place? That's more unlikely then what I'm saying. Again, plan-A failed, so he moved onto plan-B.

The ferries were to get his attention don't you remember when he said "Ill show you when the chips are down these civilized people will eat each other." The ferries where a message to Batman and he knew he would show up.

I know he told Batman that, but that was his message to Gotham, not him "getting Batman's attention". Remember when Joker was dangling at the end, and said "you don't think I would risk loosing Gothams soul, to win a fist-fight with you?'. That right there, tells us he didn't care about getting Batmans attention, he had a motive to corrupt Gotham, while Batman was just an obstacle in his way. Of course those things are going to gain Batman's attention, but that wasn't the motive to why he did those things. Do you see the difference?

He didn't look surprised at all when he showed up and if he was why would he have guard dogs protecting him?

I think he looks VERY surprised when Batman shows up. And I think he had guard dogs, to help guard him against anybody. It doesn't mean those were his Bat-guard-dogs.

The cops weren't dumb at all. Their boss (Gordon) said give Batman 2 minutes and then they breached, its not their fault they didn't know that Joker had switched everybody up to confuse them.

If you have a cop killer on the loose, and have him in your sights with a sniper rifle, I don't think anybody would stand down. It would be a shoot on site, kind of deal. And I'm not going over this anymore. If you want to make a debate thread on which Bat-flick had the "smarter" cops, then go knock yourself out. Lets keep this on Joker, please.

 

[Brother Jack]

The Joker never actually wanted to kill Batman, that was a total lie he told the mob so that he could get their financial backing. He killed Brian Douglass to get the city and the real Batman's attention, and to initiate his "take off your mask or people die" scheme.

 

[Travesty]

The Joker never actually wanted to kill Batman, that was a total lie he told the mob so that he could get their financial backing. He killed Brian Douglass to get the city and the real Batman's attention, and to initiate his "take off your mask or people die" scheme.

I would disagree, on the fact that he originally wanted to kill Batman, and is shown to us clearly in the deleted scene. In the scene that wasn't filmed, when The Joker gets in his car after the dinner party, Joker is speculating on whether Dent is Batman, and how he will kill him. When a goon asks if he's going to kill Harvey, Joker replies, "I'm a man of my word".

I'll try to find a link to that, but it is one scene that was cut out of the movie.

 

[Travesty]

Ok, I found the script online, and had a look at the deleted scene I was talking about, and I was pretty close. Here is how it goes:

The joker looks back as his car SPEEDS away. He's breathing hard, EXHILARATED. He touches the blood running down his sweaty white makeup. SMACKS the back of the driver seat-

Driver
What do we do about Dent?

The Joker
I'm a man of my word.


So basically, we know Joker thought Harvey was Batman after the dinner scene. He says he's going to kill Dent, which means he was planning on killing Batman.

edit: link to script http://www.joblo.com/index.php?id=22617

 

[Mr.?]

I know, but how would he have figured out that he wasn't Dent? Dent just admitted to Gotham, that he was Batman. Then, The Joker was going to go kidnap him and Rachel, and kill them both. He didn't find out, until he was in the truck, which is why he went "hmmmm" when he saw The Tumbler. The plan was to take Dent(who he thought was Batman) in one warehouse, and Rachel in another, and blow them up, therefore, completing his promise to the mob about killing Batman. Right after the chase scene, Joker was apprehended, so the plan was still in effect, but didn't know for a fact that Dent wasn't Batman.

No, I'm saying that was the original plan, because he thought Dent was Batman. Are you telling me, that he came up with that plan while he was apprehended and sitting in a jail, and somehow got Dent and Rachel in a warehouse, knowing that Batman would capture him, just to have a guy with a bomb in his stomach, come to bail him out of jail? Are you telling me that fell perfectly into place? That's more unlikely then what I'm saying. Again, plan-A failed, so he moved onto plan-B.

I know he told Batman that, but that was his message to Gotham, not him "getting Batman's attention". Remember when Joker was dangling at the end, and said "you don't think I would risk loosing Gothams soul, to win a fist-fight with you?'. That right there, tells us he didn't care about getting Batmans attention, he had a motive to corrupt Gotham, while Batman was just an obstacle in his way. Of course those things are going to gain Batman's attention, but that wasn't the motive to why he did those things. Do you see the difference?

Why would he go through all the trouble of kidnapping Rachel and Dent and synchronizing it perfectly for them to blow at the same time if he thought he was the real Batman? It was obviously a trap he set up for both the cops and Batman. Joker is smart enough not to believe Dent when he said he was Batman even the people in the crowd groaned with disbelief and had a unanimous "Yeah right" attitude afterwards. Joker went after Dent knowing it was a trap because he most likely got tipped off by Wuertz or Ramirez. His "hmmmm" seemed more like he was surprised or enjoyed what Batman did to the garbage truck and was happy he finally arrived. He didn't want to kill Batman don't you remember in the interrogation room "You complete me" and at the end "I think we are destined to do this forever". I don't think he would have killed Harvey either he probably would have kidnapped him and tied him up still, his plan with Dent and Rachel was always to get Batman's attention.

No im saying it was his plan all along. He knew that A.) This was his opportunity to apprehend Dent or B.) He was going to get captured but plan A would still come through thanks to Gordon's crooked cops. Joker probably hoped plan B would happen because when B happened it gave Joker the opportunity to shut Lao up before he testified against the mob so it worked heavily in his favor. Gordon alludes to this by saying "He wanted me to lock him up in the MCU".

That one scene shows that his scheme was grander than garnering Batman's attention but throughout the movie there are alot of moments where that was his intent. In this movie I see Joker as wanting to mess with Batman and cause as much chaos as possible in Gotham.

 

[Travesty]

Why would he go through all the trouble of kidnapping Rachel and Dent and synchronizing it perfectly for them to blow at the same time if he thought he was the real Batman?

I don't know? Maybe because he thought that was Batman's girl, and since she already kicked Joker at the dinner party, maybe he wanted a little revenge? All your doing, is pure speculation, while I'm relying on what we have. And again, the deleted scene from the script backs up what I say.

It was obviously a trap he set up for both the cops and Batman. Joker is smart enough not to believe Dent when he said he was Batman even the people in the crowd groaned with disbelief and had a unanimous "Yeah right" attitude afterwards.

While this is speculation, I don't believe that anybody could foresee that he would be captured by Batman, and also know that he would be in the interrogation room, just so he could tell him his plan about Dent and Rachel, to have them split up, and know that he would kill Rachel, and leave Dent scarred. Again, it makes MUCH more sense that he had a plan to kill Rachel and Dent, because he thought Dent was Batman, and maybe he wanted them to know that they were both about to die, but couldn't help themselves, as they were in separate rooms.

Either way, Joker thought Dent was Batman, and he was a "man of his word", and was out to kill him. I find this hard to deny, because if you didn't pick this up in the movie, then you should at least see it with the deleted scene form the script.

His "hmmmm" seemed more like he was surprised or enjoyed what Batman did to the garbage truck and was happy he finally arrived.

No, he did that before The Tumbler hit the garbage truck. And normally when someone says "hmmmm", it's not out of excitement, it's out of realization/confusion.

He didn't want to kill Batman don't you remember in the interrogation room "You complete me" and at the end "I think we are destined to do this forever". I don't think he would have killed Harvey either he probably would have kidnapped him and tied him up still, his plan with Dent and Rachel was always to get Batman's attention.

No it wasn't, and you can't say that for a fact. And yes, The Joker said those things, but he also said, "it's simple. we umm, kill the Bat-Man". He already had a motive and a desire to kill Batman. He then started having fun, realizing that Batman was actually a few steps ahead of him, and that's when he said it in the interrogation room. And while all that is speculation, once again, what isn't, is one of The Jokers last lines in the movie when he said, "you don't think I would risk loosing Gothams soul, to win a fist-fight with you?". There it is, in black and white/clear as day! Of course all these things are going to get Batmans attention, but that wasn't The Jokers motives. There's a HUGE difference there, and you either can't see it, or are to stubborn to acknowledge the fact. This is just something that can't really be debated, as it's evident with his last line.

In this movie I see Joker as wanting to mess with Batman and cause as much chaos as possible in Gotham.

Of course he wants to cause as much chaos in Gotham, and that was his point(ie. to cause
chaos and anarchy throughout Gotham, while showing them how corruptible they can become). And yes, he messed with Batman, but that wasn't his overall desire, want, or need. His needs were to show Gotham how truly corruptible it could become.

Look, I'm not saying that The Joker and Batman didn't fight, or get entangled in heated battle, but that was never the reason. The Jokers motives were to send a message to Gotham, and Batman got in the way. It was never to get Batmans attention, while Gotham got in the way, it was the complete opposite. I don't know how else I can say this for you to understand?

 

[El Payaso]

Meeting with her in the museum by candlelight with soft music playing. Bringing her a gift in her apartment. Dancing with her in the cathedral. For the Joker, that's romantic. Even Harley Quinn doesn't get that kind of treatment.

Maybe you missed the parts when we realise he's after her out of lust not love. And part of what his "romantic date" includes was a face-disfigurement with acid.

I'd talk more about Harley Quinn but that character destroys what the Joker is about.

When has the Joker ever shown this kind of obsession with a woman? Pursuing her like a randy stalker?

The Dark Knight. First time Joker looks at her he is amazed, combs his hair and say "Hello beautiful." If you somehow thought that Jack's Joker was being "romantic" then this scene should be the same for the same reasons. And then Joker kidnaps her and uses her to attract the bat. And at one point Joker throws Rachel from a tall building. Everything that Jack's Joker did with Vicky.

I'd hardly compare Joker being the reason for Batman's creation, to pushing Harvey Dent over the edge.

And naturally you won't say why you wouldn't?

It's just as bad, if not worse than what they did with Sandman being Uncle Ben's killer in Spider-Man 3.

It is the same.

Joker didn't originally killed the Waynes.
Sandman didn't originally killed uncle Ben.
Ras al Ghul didn't originally trained Bruce.
Joker didn't originally disfigure Harvey's face.

Really? Can you give me some examples?

The SHH member called Joker already did. Now I don't think there's a comic book with Joker being a face-painter.

Ledger's Joker's methods for murder were more brutal. More shocking. Most of Nicholson's were comical. Funny, but comical.

The Penguin and Catwoman in Returns were more savage and brutal. I'd remember Penguin biting a guy's nose, or Catwoman clawing the face off some thug more than the joy buzzer, or the newscaster who just fell over laughing and had a chelsea grin a minute later.

I don't think you realize what is to char a man alive during 1 minute, the guy's flesh being carbonized and the horrid smell. And then have a placid chat with the corpse. That's nothing short of brutality. Now, a knife in someone's mouth or a pencil in somebody's skull is not either but the joy buzzer is Joker and the rest can be used by any other psycho killer.

Plus Jack's Joker did what Joker loves to do: to kill a mass of people.

 

[Mr.?]

I don't know? Maybe because he thought that was Batman's girl, and since she already kicked Joker at the dinner party, maybe he wanted a little revenge? All your doing, is pure speculation, while I'm relying on what we have. And again, the deleted scene from the script backs up what I say.


While this is speculation, I don't believe that anybody could foresee that he would be captured by Batman, and also know that he would be in the interrogation room, just so he could tell him his plan about Dent and Rachel, to have them split up, and know that he would kill Rachel, and leave Dent scarred. Again, it makes MUCH more sense that he had a plan to kill Rachel and Dent, because he thought Dent was Batman, and maybe he wanted them to know that they were both about to die, but couldn't help themselves, as they were in separate rooms.

Either way, Joker thought Dent was Batman, and he was a "man of his word", and was out to kill him. I find this hard to deny, because if you didn't pick this up in the movie, then you should at least see it with the deleted scene form the script.

No, he did that before The Tumbler hit the garbage truck. And normally when someone says "hmmmm", it's not out of excitement, it's out of realization/confusion.


No it wasn't, and you can't say that for a fact. And yes, The Joker said those things, but he also said, "it's simple. we umm, kill the Bat-Man". He already had a motive and a desire to kill Batman. He then started having fun, realizing that Batman was actually a few steps ahead of him, and that's when he said it in the interrogation room. And while all that is speculation, once again, what isn't, is one of The Jokers last lines in the movie when he said, "you don't think I would risk loosing Gothams soul, to win a fist-fight with you?". There it is, in black and white/clear as day! Of course all these things are going to get Batmans attention, but that wasn't The Jokers motives. There's a HUGE difference there, and you either can't see it, or are to stubborn to acknowledge the fact. This is just something that can't really be debated, as it's evident with his last line.


Of course he wants to cause as much chaos in Gotham, and that was his point(ie. to cause
chaos and anarchy throughout Gotham, while showing them how corruptible they can become). And yes, he messed with Batman, but that wasn't his overall desire, want, or need. His needs were to show Gotham how truly corruptible it could become.

Look, I'm not saying that The Joker and Batman didn't fight, or get entangled in heated battle, but that was never the reason. The Jokers motives were to send a message to Gotham, and Batman got in the way. It was never to get Batmans attention, while Gotham got in the way, it was the complete opposite. I don't know how else I can say this for you to understand?

Sorry but a deleted scene from a script is hardly anything to back up your claim. What your doing is speculating as well.

What is Joker forseeing, are you forgetting that he had people in Gordon's unit working for him? Like I said earlier they could have easily tipped him off about what was going down. I didn't say anything about him knowing that Rachel would be killed or Dent would be scarred but my point was that it was all a plan to garner Batman's attention and wasn't done because he thought Dent was Batman. He did want Dent and Rachel dead but he wanted Batman to choose which one dies and lives therefore thats another example of it all revolving around Batman.

It baffles me to think Joker thought Dent was Batman up to that point seeing as Dents saying he was Batman was called unbelievable by most and Joker had informants in Gordon's unit. Once again a deleted scene from a script is a weak source. He thought Dent was Batman for a second but during the chase scene im sure he knew Dent wasn't Batman.

Wrong he says "hmmm" after the garbage truck is hit.

Of course Joker wanted to kill him in the beginning but we are talking about him supposedly capturing Dent and Rachel to kill them because he thought Dent was Batman, at that point in the movie his motive had changed and he didn't want to kill Batman. The line is actually "You didn't think I'de risk losing the battle for Gotham's soul in a fistfight with you?" meaning that he knew Batman would show up and he has Harvey as a back-up plan or as he put it "An ace in the hole". Its pretty clear in the movie Joker had interest in Batman and wanted to destroy Gotham and attack him personally to piss him off because he wanted Batman to break his one rule, therefore Batman is a major piece in Joker's motive.

I think your way off in your thinking but whatever you think what you want.

 

[Ryan]

Travesty, if you've read my posts, I"ve already said that I loved the Romero Joker. So I'm not sure where your getting this "did you even like the character" nonsense. The thread is about whether people liked the Nicholson verison over the Ledger, and I simply don't. In my opnion, Nicholson didn't do anything that was better then Romero's traditional Joker. I liked Ledger's because it was less gimmicky and it showed an up and coming Joker without all the gadgets. Ledger's Joker was hungrier, more bloodthirsty and less on the comical side and I enjoyed it. The same way I enjoyed Bale's verison vs the gimmicky Adam West Verison (which I also loved). I would not have been opposed to the Joker in a third film using more gimmicks the same way Batman was using more gimmicks (night vision) in the Dark Knight. What I love about the Nolan films is that they returned characters to square one and would show their progression as characters.

 

[Travesty]

Sorry but a deleted scene from a script is hardly anything to back up your claim. What your doing is speculating as well.

No it's not, it is a guidline of what the writers saw fit for the movie. If that's what they wrote in, then that's how the character was supposed to be portrayed. If he wanted to kill Harvey(which was evident without the script), and we have confirmation of what he said for a deleted scene(more confirmation), then it's apparent what is happening.

What is Joker forseeing, are you forgetting that he had people in Gordon's unit working for him? Like I said earlier they could have easily tipped him off about what was going down. I didn't say anything about him knowing that Rachel would be killed or Dent would be scarred but my point was that it was all a plan to garner Batman's attention and wasn't done because he thought Dent was Batman. He did want Dent and Rachel dead but he wanted Batman to choose which one dies and lives therefore thats another example of it all revolving around Batman.

You can't say that for a fact. That is you just speculating on what "could" happen, when it was never told to us, either way. You can't say, "he wanted Batman to choose", because it was a flook that Batman was even in the interrogation room to begin with, hence, the lights were out, and The Joker getting a surprise head slam on the table. Are you saying that The Joker knew he was also going to get his head slammed on the table, just so he could divulge his plan directly to Batman? That's ludicrous! It just happened that way.

It baffles me to think Joker thought Dent was Batman up to that point seeing as Dents saying he was Batman was called unbelievable by most and Joker had informants in Gordon's unit. Once again a deleted scene from a script is a weak source. He thought Dent was Batman for a second but during the chase scene im sure he knew Dent wasn't Batman.

A weak source? Are you saying you know how the story is played out better then the friggin writers of the movie?

Wrong he says "hmmm" after the garbage truck is hit.

Really? It's been a good 3-4 months since I've last watched the movie. You could be right, and if you are, I apologize, but I thought it was before. Oh well, that doesn't really change the fact.

Of course Joker wanted to kill him in the beginning but we are talking about him supposedly capturing Dent and Rachel to kill them because he thought Dent was Batman, at that point in the movie his motive had changed and he didn't want to kill Batman. The line is actually "You didn't expect me to risk the battle for Gotham's soul in a fistfight with you?" meaning that he knew Batman would show up and he has Harvey as a back-up plan or as he put it "An ace in the hole".

He just told Batman, that he was more interested in Gothams soul(exposing it's corruption/breaking it down), then to fight him. Harvey is his backup, as his entire motive is to corrupt Gotham, and show them this through their "leaders/do-gooders". How are you seeing this differently? Yes, Batman was part of the plan, but it wasn't just about him, it was about something entirely else. I mean, if he even had a backup plan(Harvey) that didn't involve Batman, then that should tell you that his plan wasn't directly about him, it was about Gotham.

Seriously, if anybody else is reading this, how am I interpreting this quote "wrong", if I even am?

Its pretty clear in the movie Joker had interest in Batman and wanted to destroy Gotham and attack him personally to piss him off because he wanted Batman to break his one rule, therefore Batman is a major piece in Joker's motive.

The very reason why he wanted Batman to break his one rule, is because he was just as incorruptible as Harvey. His motive wasn't to seek Batman out for the fun of it, it was to expose corruption, so all of Gotham could see. If Harvey was even part of the plan, then that should tell you it wasn't just about Batman. Again, it was his friggin message!

I think your way off in your thinking but whatever you think what you want.

Thanks

 

[Travesty]

Travesty, if you've read my posts, I"ve already said that I loved the Romero Joker. So I'm not sure where your getting this "did you even like the character" nonsense. The thread is about whether people liked the Nicholson verison over the Ledger, and I simply don't. In my opnion, Nicholson didn't do anything that was better then Romero's traditional Joker. I liked Ledger's because it was less gimmicky and it showed an up and coming Joker without all the gadgets. Ledger's Joker was hungrier, more bloodthirsty and less on the comical side and I enjoyed it. The same way I enjoyed Bale's verison vs the gimmicky Adam West Verison (which I also loved). I would not have been opposed to the Joker in a third film using more gimmicks the same way Batman was using more gimmicks (night vision) in the Dark Knight. What I love about the Nolan films is that they returned characters to square one and would show their progression as characters.

Sorry, I was just trying to get my point across, as I saw a perfect opportunity in your post. I don't mean any hate or discrimination, as I respect your opinion on what you like more. I was just using a "cheap lawyer tactic", and I do apologize, but I still stand by what I say, besides asking if you "even like the character to begin with". I'll refrain from doing so with you in future posts, and I'll be more selective with what I say to you. Again, I apologize.

 

[Mr.?]

No it's not, it is a guidline of what the writers saw fit for the movie. If that's what they wrote in, then that's how the character was supposed to be portrayed. If he wanted to kill Harvey(which was evident without the script), and we have confirmation of what he said for a deleted scene(more confirmation), then it's apparent what is happening.

You can't say that for a fact. That is you just speculating on what "could" happen, when it was never told to us, either way. You can't say, "he wanted Batman to choose", because it was a flook that Batman was even in the interrogation room to begin with, hence, the lights were out, and The Joker getting a surprise head slam on the table. Are you saying that The Joker knew he was also going to get his head slammed on the table, just so he could divulge his plan directly to Batman? That's ludicrous! It just happened that way.

A weak source? Are you saying you know how the story is played out better then the friggin writers of the movie?

Really? It's been a good 3-4 months since I've last watched the movie. You could be right, and if you are, I apologize, but I thought it was before. Oh well, that doesn't really change the fact.

He just told Batman, that he was more interested in Gothams soul(exposing it's corruption/breaking it down), then to fight him. Harvey is his backup, as his entire motive is to corrupt Gotham, and show them this through their "leaders/do-gooders". How are you seeing this differently? Yes, Batman was part of the plan, but it wasn't just about him, it was about something entirely else. I mean, if he even had a backup plan(Harvey) that didn't involve Batman, then that should tell you that his plan wasn't directly about him, it was about Gotham.

Seriously, if anybody else is reading this, how am I interpreting this quote "wrong", if I even am?

The very reason why he wanted Batman to break his one rule, is because he was just as incorruptible as Harvey. His motive wasn't to seek Batman out for the fun of it, it was to expose corruption, so all of Gotham could see. If Harvey was even part of the plan, then that should tell you it wasn't just about Batman. Again, it was his friggin message!

Thanks

You do realize things are cut from scripts right? Because it didn't fit well with the story/movie, the director didn't want it in, it isn't important, etc. therefore no it isn't a good source. Im going by what happened in the movie.

Yes he did want to kill Harvey in the beginning before he met Batman. If his whole goal was to kill him after meeting Batman why didn't he just get Wuertz to pull over and snuff him instead of going through all that other trouble? Its simple, he set them up as bait for Batman and the police to take.

Can't say what for a fact, That he had informants? Yes I can say that because he did. Yes I can say he wanted Batman to choose because, you know, he says that in the movie. Of course he didn't know Batman was in the room but he knew Batman and the cops were working together and that Batman would eventually show up so that makes your point mute. Batman would have eventually showed up and Joker would have still unveiled his plan.

Bottom line if the scene your speaking of was wanted they would have kept it in, it wasn't so they left it out. I never claimed to know more about the writers, but the movie is certainly a better source then two lines of cut dialogue from a script.

Im watching it now, Bats hits the truck first. Yes it does change the fact . Him seeing Batman first and going "hmm" backs up you saying he thought at that moment "Hey Dent isn't Batman" him saying "hmm" after the truck hitting backs up what I think as "Ha that was interesting, been waiting for you Bats."

Joker wasn't about exposing corruption, your making him sound like a lawyer or something. His goal was simple, create as much chaos as possible and push Batman to his limits. What he is essentially saying is "I knew you would show up and most likely beat me, but this back up plan will cause more anarchy then you could imagine." I never said it was only about Batman I said it was about chaos and Batman. Joker knew at the end that no matter what he did to Batman he was incorruptable, but he also knew that by revealing Harvey he would tear the city apart and create chaos.

Once again never said Joker's motive was just about Batman but he did play a major part in his motive.

 

[El Payaso]

In my opnion, Nicholson didn't do anything that was better then Romero's traditional Joker.

Every single Jack's Joker killing scene beats everything Romero did (I don't even think he ever killed someone). Add to that that Nicholson's laughter also beats Romero's. Then we have the laughing gas that kills you carving a horrible smile in your face. jack's Joker had tons of things better than Romeros'.

I like what Cesar did but the villiains in that series were never meant to be really dangerous and Jack's Joker was the first portrayal having the character as a really dangerous murderer with toys that could really kill you in hideous ways.

I liked Ledger's because it was less gimmicky and it showed an up and coming Joker without all the gadgets. Ledger's Joker was hungrier, more bloodthirsty and less on the comical side and I enjoyed it.

I agree, and I loved what he did. I don't think I can say which Joker I prefer over the other here. But what ledger did doesn't diminish Jack's Joker.

 

[Ryan]

All a matter of taste El Payaso. I honestly never felt threatened or any sense of edginess to Nicholson's performance, and I never found him entertaining either. Nicholson is one of my top ten favourite actors and had high hopes for him in this role. However, the paunch, the age, the balding all got in the way for me. Had he really delivered lines that I felt like quoting outside of the theatre, or remembered scenes and talked about the endlessly with friends at a coffee shop, as I did with Ledger's Joker then I could have said job well done.
However, to me,the Burton film was a big budget, big cast, and a bit darker take on the Tv series, without the charm and without the fun. Nolan's Bat reboots remind me of seeing Tarrantino's films for the first time (back when Tarrantino was cool).
Oh well, this has been beaten to death and the arguing has grown cold.
On a different note, the Joker DID believe that Batman was Dent, and he says so right in the movie. During the interrogation scene, with his back against the wall, the joker says "you know, for a lil while there, I really believed you were Dent,,,,,the way you threw yourself after her........":
Hope that helps.

 

[Brother Jack]

On a different note, the Joker DID believe that Batman was Dent, and he says so right in the movie. During the interrogation scene, with his back against the wall, the joker says "you know, for a lil while there, I really believed you were Dent,,,,,the way you threw yourself after her........":
Hope that helps.

He may very well have been lying.

 

[Travesty]

You do realize things are cut from scripts right? Because it didn't fit well with the story/movie, the director didn't want it in, it isn't important, etc. therefore no it isn't a good source. Im going by what happened in the movie.

Can you tell me why they cut it form the script? Because I can! I read in an interview, that Nolan said he cut it, because he didn't like how Joker talked to his henchmen/goons. I'll look for a link in a second.

Yes he did want to kill Harvey in the beginning before he met Batman. If his whole goal was to kill him after meeting Batman why didn't he just get Wuertz to pull over and snuff him instead of going through all that other trouble? Its simple, he set them up as bait for Batman and the police to take.

You can't say this for a fact. I don't know why The Joker did things that weren't explained to us, but I can go with what we have, and what we know, and that still doesn't even make sense, because I'm 100% positive that Joker thought Harvey was Batman. It just makes more sense that he tried to capture/kill Harvey, RIGHT AFTER Harvey told people he was Batman. That was the ENTIRE reason that Harvey even said he was Batman, to put himself up for bait, cause he "knew [Batman] would do the right thing". They tricked Joker, not the other way around.

Can't say what for a fact, That he had informants? Yes I can say that because he did. Yes I can say he wanted Batman to choose because, you know, he says that in the movie. Of course he didn't know Batman was in the room but he knew Batman and the cops were working together and that Batman would eventually show up so that makes your point mute. Batman would have eventually showed up and Joker would have still unveiled his plan.

First of all, and I hate to say this, but the term is "moot", not "mute". Second, knowing that Dent and Rachel were in a warehouse, with a timed detonator, Joker knew that Batman would come in to interrogate him, before the detonator went off? Like I said, the plan was to kill Harvey, because he thought he was Batman, and the plan was still in effect, even though The Joker was captured by the cops. So The Joker was like, "just set it to 4hr15min, cause I know Batman will chase me, then I'll be in the cops cell for at least an hour, and then Batman will come interrogate me. Trust me, I have informants! And THEN, I'll tell him my plan about Harvey and Rachel, just so he has a SLIGHT chance to only save one. Yes, gentlemen, it is so simple".

Im watching it now, Bats hits the truck first. Yes it does change the fact . Him seeing Batman first and going "hmm" backs up you saying he thought at that moment "Hey Dent isn't Batman" him saying "hmm" after the truck hitting backs up what I think as "Ha that was interesting, been waiting for you Bats."

I just got done watching the scene, and it doesn't change anything. Joker had his mouth open the entire time while watching The Tumbler, until he went "hmmmm". Same reaction to what I originally told.

Joker wasn't about exposing corruption, your making him sound like a lawyer or something. His goal was simple, create as much chaos as possible and push Batman to his limits.

It wasn't about exposing corruption, it was about corrupting the people fighting for Gothams good(ie.The incorruptible). It was about showing the people of Gotham, that even the good ones are still bad.

What he is essentially saying is "I knew you would show up and most likely beat me, but this back up plan will cause more anarchy then you could imagine." I never said it was only about Batman I said it was about chaos and Batman. Joker knew at the end that no matter what he did to Batman he was incorruptable, but he also knew that by revealing Harvey he would tear the city apart and create chaos.

No, the Joker wanted to show Gotham it was corruptible, and he was willing to do anything, even put his life on the line, to get his message across. Why do you think he wanted Batman to either shoot him down, or run him over in the Bat-pod, when he said, "I want you to do it...come one. hit me...come on hit me. HIT ME!"??? He wanted to show the people of Gotham that these so called "protectors" are corruptible, and he was willing to kill himself for that very message.

Once again never said Joker's motive was just about Batman but he did play a major part in his motive.

 

[El Payaso]

All a matter of taste El Payaso. I honestly never felt threatened or any sense of edginess to Nicholson's performance, and I never found him entertaining either. Nicholson is one of my top ten favourite actors and had high hopes for him in this role. However, the paunch, the age, the balding all got in the way for me. Had he really delivered lines that I felt like quoting outside of the theatre, or remembered scenes and talked about the endlessly with friends at a coffee shop, as I did with Ledger's Joker then I could have said job well done.

Well, you not feeling gruightened or like talking to your pals about quotes might be okay but it doesn't mean that "Nicholson didn't do anything that was better then Romero's traditional Joker." Because Romero's jokes and funny/cool quotes were unexistant and he was everything but frightening.

That said, I assume Ledger's balding didn't bother you.

However, to me,the Burton film was a big budget, big cast, and a bit darker take on the Tv series, without the charm and without the fun.

And without Robin, without the spandex, without the POW!'s and BAM!'s, without Aunt Harriet, without asexual Batman, without the music (neitherof which had much charm or fun). In fact Burton's movies bareely paid sopme homages to the series but then again Nolan used the Cesar Romero'¡s Il Paggliaci's mask that he used on the series.

Nolan's Bat reboots remind me of seeing Tarrantino's films for the first time (back when Tarrantino was cool).

TDK, sure. BB felt like an average superhero movie without the fun and without the good action (I wish Nolan could make fight scenes like Tarantino).

 

[TruerToTheCore]

You can't say this for a fact. I don't know why The Joker did things that weren't explained to us, but I can go with what we have, and what we know, and that still doesn't even make sense, because I'm 100% positive that Joker thought Harvey was Batman. It just makes more sense that he tried to capture/kill Harvey, RIGHT AFTER Harvey told people he was Batman. That was the ENTIRE reason that Harvey even said he was Batman, to put himself up for bait, cause he "knew [Batman] would do the right thing". They tricked Joker, not the other way around.

To be honest, the whole thing doesn't make any sense. It's a major plothole and completely unbelievable.